its all the same after about 20 times here. according to your 50% math I should be at nearly zero long ago lol it just ain't happening. no loss in vigor/bud quality whatsoever here
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Clone of a Clone of a... Degredation Experiment
- Thread starter Regulator Dave
- Start date
its all the same after about 20 times here. according to your 50% math I should be at nearly zero long ago lol it just ain't happening. no loss in vigor/bud quality whatsoever here
kstampy
Member
My ogre pheno of sensi star is probably the 100th+ generation clone after 10+ years grown by my buddy and a few years by myself. It's still going strong! I only keep a mother for a few months then replace with a newer more healthy cutting for faster growth. Just to add the ogre has been through 10+ mite infestations and PM about 5 times. No degradation after bringing them back to health properly.
Regulator Dave
Member
What if you don't bring them back to health properly?
What if you don't bring them back to health properly?
Do you have any examples of people not bringing them back to health properly resulting in degradation ?
What if you don't bring them back to health properly?
Do you have any examples of people not bringing them back to health properly resulting in degradation ?
Regulator Dave
Member
What happens if the Mom does not remain healthy?
What happens if the Mom does not remain healthy?
Do you have examples of mom's that did not remain healthy resulting in clone degradation?
and thanks for the interest in the experiment!
What happens if the Mom does not remain healthy?
Do you have examples of mom's that did not remain healthy resulting in clone degradation?
and thanks for the interest in the experiment!
New Oxford American Dictionary said:
cuttings are organisms which were produced from one ancestor, to which they are genetically identical.
They are cuttings, but they are also clones.
Regulator Dave
Member
Is thier NO utility in the experiment?
Is thier NO utility in the experiment?
I do agree with you that there are clones that have been around forever I have an OG Kush that has been around forever and other strains as well.
As far as degradation goes I have not observed it but at the same time I never got to take a look at the Mom from seed to see if she was actually better than her clone counterpart.
Have you seen any of the mom's of the clones that have been around forever that you spoke of?
I know my Northern lights x Cinderella 99 was bomb when it was first grown from seed but the clone of it is average. I have ran her 8 times to try to recreate that first bling I saw. I have never come even close since.
Also my Really Good Dope x Blue Berry same thing as the N99 . It was an 8 from seed but now I would consider it a 6.
Has anyone else had an awesome seeded plant that turned into an average clone plant?
Is thier NO utility in the experiment?
This test has been run for many years already by those of us right here in the community growing the same clone for sometimes well over 20 years. Clone of a clone of a clone ... doesnt change. Can you say TrainWreck.... just as example ... look how long this girl has been passed aroundI say the test is over the results are in
I do agree with you that there are clones that have been around forever I have an OG Kush that has been around forever and other strains as well.
As far as degradation goes I have not observed it but at the same time I never got to take a look at the Mom from seed to see if she was actually better than her clone counterpart.
Have you seen any of the mom's of the clones that have been around forever that you spoke of?
I know my Northern lights x Cinderella 99 was bomb when it was first grown from seed but the clone of it is average. I have ran her 8 times to try to recreate that first bling I saw. I have never come even close since.
Also my Really Good Dope x Blue Berry same thing as the N99 . It was an 8 from seed but now I would consider it a 6.
Has anyone else had an awesome seeded plant that turned into an average clone plant?
Regulator Dave
Member
Seeded Plant vs. Cloned Counterpart
Seeded Plant vs. Cloned Counterpart
Would the experiment be more interesting if it was focused on investigating the difference between a seeded plant and its clone counterpart?
It could all be built into the same experiment
Thanks for all the interest, everyone
Seeded Plant vs. Cloned Counterpart
Would the experiment be more interesting if it was focused on investigating the difference between a seeded plant and its clone counterpart?
It could all be built into the same experiment
Thanks for all the interest, everyone
I think an important point here is that people are the variable...we are not always able top replicate the pervious grow to a T...this can account for variety, not that the plant is losing potencey...just my 2 cents...i some pre 98 bubba an a few other strains that have been going for a long while...no problems for me...peace n puffs
It seems to me that it would be quite simple for those who claim clone degradation over successive generations to discover and explain the mechanism of how this miraculous DNA change occurs,yet to date, no one has ever done so, using anecdotal evidence in place of consistent scientific repetition of this phenomena.
I could be wrong , as I am not a biologist, macro or micro, but it seems fairly incongruous that this extraordinary claim is never presented with supporting data and is assumed to be 'fact' by its proponents.
Botany is still considered to be a science, as far as I know, and yet some would have us believe otherwise, that it is more akin to an arcane art.
I propose that any 'art' will be substantiated by firm scientific principles and experience if the outcomes are unknown from following non-traditional practices.
Claiming you have 'Mojo' is fun, but it hardly takes the place of a scientific methodology.
Excuse me, but I have to go visit my Phrenologist for a while to relax and discover my future.
I could be wrong , as I am not a biologist, macro or micro, but it seems fairly incongruous that this extraordinary claim is never presented with supporting data and is assumed to be 'fact' by its proponents.
Botany is still considered to be a science, as far as I know, and yet some would have us believe otherwise, that it is more akin to an arcane art.
I propose that any 'art' will be substantiated by firm scientific principles and experience if the outcomes are unknown from following non-traditional practices.
Claiming you have 'Mojo' is fun, but it hardly takes the place of a scientific methodology.
Excuse me, but I have to go visit my Phrenologist for a while to relax and discover my future.
David762
Member
Is it possible that an F1 or F2 that exhibits especial vigor has been used as an example of genetic degradation in subsequent "cuttings" is really a measure of the genetic instability of that particular cultivar, rather than any problem with the cloning process itself?
Perhaps the experiment should be based upon a known stable IBL versus an F1 or F2?
Perhaps the experiment should be based upon a known stable IBL versus an F1 or F2?
There are things which can cause long held cuttings to lose vigor and potency, but these involve infection, not genetic changes.
People do believe implicitly that taking clones from clones causes genetic degration. I believe this stems from the fact that hillbillies fucking their sisters also causes genetic degration, and mating the same plants with each other also causes genetic degration.
The latter two examples happen because recessive traits begin to be expressed, but as stated many times throughout this thread, the DNA of a clone will remain the same as the DNA of the original mom from seed.
Some clones do perform worse than others, probably because the plant's hormones are distributed unevenly throughout the plant, and you're taking clones from the top, middle and bottom of the plant which may each have a different concentration of these growth/growth suppression hormones; And these have different characteristics early on, but given enough time yes they should grow out to the full potential of their genetics given the environment is ideal.
As for seeds vs clones, clones in theory are more potent because they are more mature than seeded plants, but in practice I notice no difference between a seeded plant going to flower and the clones from that plant, but I veg for a long time so my seeded plants are mature as well.
That's my knowledge on this topic, but I'm always open to change my beliefs and opinions given new information, so I'm keeping an eye on this thread.
The latter two examples happen because recessive traits begin to be expressed, but as stated many times throughout this thread, the DNA of a clone will remain the same as the DNA of the original mom from seed.
Some clones do perform worse than others, probably because the plant's hormones are distributed unevenly throughout the plant, and you're taking clones from the top, middle and bottom of the plant which may each have a different concentration of these growth/growth suppression hormones; And these have different characteristics early on, but given enough time yes they should grow out to the full potential of their genetics given the environment is ideal.
As for seeds vs clones, clones in theory are more potent because they are more mature than seeded plants, but in practice I notice no difference between a seeded plant going to flower and the clones from that plant, but I veg for a long time so my seeded plants are mature as well.
That's my knowledge on this topic, but I'm always open to change my beliefs and opinions given new information, so I'm keeping an eye on this thread.
Randybobandy
Member
I always thought the whole clone from a clone thing was stupid. Ive heard reveging a plant will lead to degradation of potency but I've seen guys here that reveged plants and they ended super frosty. Does anyone know if re-veging is known to "change" anything?
JackTorrance
Member
Excellent thread! Good luck with your experiment Dave, and how is the SOL Blue Satelite 2.2? Got a few beans to pop! Peace.
jack
jack
Regulator Dave
Member
Thanks Jack, I look forward to sharing the experiment with everyone. At least those that are interested anyway.
I have not flowered the BS 2.2 yet but damn I hope I get the cherry pheno. The BS 2.2 is a little seedling right now but when it grows I'll take those clones and off to the magic maker she will go!
A clone from a clone from a clone hundreds of times will be exactly the same as long as the Moms that they came from over and over again were never stressed or didn't get any virus's or things of this nature. When I grow a MOM, I always back it up first before I take a bunch of cuts from her because of the stress and other factors that could make her deterioate and cause some sort of problem where the next clones could degrade. The first clone that I take, I will take one from her before I clone the shit out of that Mom and I will do this forever. Using cutting utensils that are not sterile or having a dirty room or having mites and things like this could cause some sort of degradation that can make the future cuts that you take, go down hill. As long as your plants are never stressed or subjected to mites, virus's and things like this, then they will be the same that they came from. There are many growers around the world that have elite clone only strains that were never put in any stress and were kept perfect 365 days per year and they have had them for 10+ years and they are still as bomb as the day that they first started them.
Regulator Dave
Member
Do you know of any examples where the mom was stressed, resulting in declining clone quality?
Bad mite infestations and using utensals that are not streile are 2 examples. These can cause infections that can change the plant for the future.
Regulator Dave
Member
Thanks Snype for the helpful info
