Clone of a Clone of a... Degredation Experiment

[ShroomDr]

So...im a bit confused... for those who dont see the 'navel orange' as an analogous to our fav plant, do you think the juice quality, fruit size, yield, etc, etc, etc has gotten worse since the 1820? If the qualities citrus growers look for have not had degradation, isnt all this talk of 'Telomeres' worthless? Yes its true, but it has no real world observable effects across many crops.


The same clone, whether its MJ, apples, navel oranges, or whatever, in two different locations is going to have slightly different characteristics, this doesnt equate to degradation.

(A vineyard on the western side of the valley is going to produce slightly different qualities than the eastern side of the valley, the western is warmed by the sun faster in the morning (the western side has a better angle). One side of the river bank, where the river bends, and the sediments accumulate, produces different characteristics in wine than the other.)

I think there are many here calling these facts of nature 'degradation'.

Sancerre FTW, and my dandelion is the same as your dandelion.

 

[Buffoonman]

Here is a quote regarding telomere shortening,
"Telomeres shorten in part because of the end replication problem that is exhibited during DNA replication in eukaryotes only. Because DNA replication does not begin at either end of the DNA strand, but starts in the center, and considering that all known DNA polymerases move in the 5' to 3' direction, one finds a leading and a lagging strand on the DNA molecule being replicated.

On the leading strand, DNA polymerase can make a complementary DNA strand without any difficulty because it goes from 5' to 3'. However, there is a problem going in the other direction on the lagging strand. To counter this, short sequences of RNA acting as primers attach to the lagging strand a short distance ahead of where the initiation site was. The DNA polymerase can start replication at that point and go to the end of the initiation site. This causes the formation of Okazaki fragments. More RNA primers attach further on the DNA strand and DNA polymerase comes along and continues to make a new DNA strand.

Eventually, the last RNA primer attaches, and DNA polymerase, RNA nuclease, and DNA ligase come along to convert the RNA (of the primers) to DNA and to seal the gaps in between the Okazaki fragments. But, in order to change RNA to DNA, there must be another DNA strand in front of the RNA primer. This happens at all the sites of the lagging strand, but it does not happen at the end where the last RNA primer is attached. Ultimately, that RNA is destroyed by enzymes that degrade any RNA left on the DNA. Thus, a section of the telomere is lost during each cycle of replication at the 5' end of the lagging strand.

However, in vitro studies (von Zglinicki et al. 1995, 2000) have shown that telomeres are highly susceptible to oxidative stress. Telomere shortening due to free radicals explains the difference between the estimated loss per division because of the end-replication problem (ca. 20 bp) and actual telomere shortening rates (50-100 bp), and has a greater absolute impact on telomere length than shortening caused by the end-replication problem."

The last paragraph really explains a lot of the "loss of vigor" read "premature aging" that is seen in stressed critters be they animal or plant. Stress shortens telomeres and causes the degradation of the cell lines that make up the cannabis plant. IMO it is this type of "genetic damage" that is responsible for degradation seen by some growers. As with all organisms some individuals will have a greater tolerance for stress than others.

The cell lines of a cloned sheep will be the age of the mother that was cloned, so the clone of the cloned sheep will be "old" at conception. Cannabis and most other plants are equipped with an enzyme system that repairs the telomeres and prevents cell line degradation by restoring telomere length. Thus the cannabis clone of a clone of a clone is still the same "age" as the mother plant unless it was subjected to stress

Interesting stuff a lot of it went over my head but got the general jist. So are you saying clones can degrade over time if they are stressed?

 

[highonmt]

Interesting stuff a lot of it went over my head but got the general jist. So are you saying clones can degrade over time if they are stressed?

Yes.

The navel orange appears to have an active telomerase enzyme system that repairs the telomeres each summer during flowering, typical of trees. Cannabis is a short lived annual so it probably does not have a particularly active telomerase system. A long lived perennial tree can not really be compared to a weedy little annual like cannabis in this instance.


microbeman if you already brought up the subject of oxidative stress affecting telomere shortening and thus bringing on the onset of cell line senescence I must have missed the post. Sorry if I did...
HM

 

[Microbeman]

Yes.

The navel orange appears to have an active telomerase enzyme system that repairs the telomeres each summer during flowering, typical of trees. Cannabis is a short lived annual so it probably does not have a particularly active telomerase system. A long lived perennial tree can not really be compared to a weedy little annual like cannabis in this instance.


microbeman if you already brought up the subject of oxidative stress affecting telomere shortening and thus bringing on the onset of cell line senescence I must have missed the post. Sorry if I did...
HM

It's cool. No worries. I actually brought up oxidative [and chemical and UV] stress several times but personally did not tie it to telomeres although my citations and contained citations may have. I was not dissing you just supporting what you said.

Everyone don't forget the original question/hypothesis addresses degradation via clones to clones to clones and not the mechanics of the degradation. There have been very valid points that this is an annual plant. Clones are more 'off cycle' than with perrenials.

 

[Buffoonman]

I wonder how likely it is a 30 year old clone wouldn't have been stressed at some time. Does this mean most old clones will have degraded somewhat in varying degrees.

 

[beta]

I wonder how likely it is a 30 year old clone wouldn't have been stressed at some time. Does this mean most old clones will have degraded somewhat in varying degrees.

Stress is not a permanent condition, and does not affect a plant genetically.

In other words, stress does not cause degradation - It causes, at most, a temporary response.

 

[Buffoonman]

Just as I thought we had got there. What do you reckon to Highonmt's oxidative stress theory then? Maybe I should make and market some cannabis antioxidant products.

 

[Microbeman]

Stress is not a permanent condition, and does not affect a plant genetically.

In other words, stress does not cause degradation - It causes, at most, a temporary response.

This is completely untrue according to literature. Read the links/citations concerning environmental genetic damage. Stesses 'may' effect a plant genetically according to literature posted.

Besides this, it is relatively obvious from an anecdotal perspective that if one is rooting cuttings of cuttings of cuttings and at one point or more, if stress was valid enough to be passed to a subsequent generation, that it could therefore be passed to following generations. There is also evidence (which I posted early in the thread) that it may be possible to reverse such traits.

Again, these traits observed may or may not be related to a direct alteration of DNA.

Again, I do believe it possible to maintain a 'plant' in relative original condition via seqential rooted cuttings or clones. I have observed this not to happen, therefore it would seem both are within the realm of the possible.

 

[Green lung]

What effect does "nostalgia" have on this.


It may be only your perception that these clones were degraded.

 

[Microbeman]

What effect does "nostalgia" have on this.


It may be only your perception that these clones were degraded.

whom are you addressing?

 

[Buffoonman]

Think it is wise to read this thread in full.

 

[Green lung]

whom are you addressing?

anyone?

 

[beta]

Stesses 'may' effect a plant genetically according to literature posted.

It is true that a virus can cause permanent change in the plant, and this virus can cause stress. However, it is not the stress itself that is causing a permanent change in the plant. Stress, AFAIK, does not cause permanent changes in a plant.

Besides this, it is relatively obvious from an anecdotal perspective that if one is rooting cuttings of cuttings of cuttings and at one point or more, if stress was valid enough to be passed to a subsequent generation, that it could therefore be passed to following generations.

Anecdotes are not evidence, and for very good reason. Your claim is not obvious, at least to me. I have taken a crappy clone of a clone from a stressed plant, and then turned that clone into a perfectly healthy mother that was, from my perspective, 100% identical to the plant as it was received by me.

 

[Buffoonman]

beta do you not accept this to be true
"However, in vitro studies (von Zglinicki et al. 1995, 2000) have shown that telomeres are highly susceptible to oxidative stress. Telomere shortening due to free radicals explains the difference between the estimated loss per division because of the end-replication problem (ca. 20 bp) and actual telomere shortening rates (50-100 bp), and has a greater absolute impact on telomere length than shortening caused by the end-replication problem."

The last paragraph really explains a lot of the "loss of vigor" read "premature aging" that is seen in stressed critters be they animal or plant. Stress shortens telomeres and causes the degradation of the cell lines that make up the cannabis plant. IMO it is this type of "genetic damage" that is responsible for degradation seen by some growers. As with all organisms some individuals will have a greater tolerance for stress than others."

 

[beta]

.

 

[Buffoonman]

I didn't write that it's a quote form earlier. Here's what a fiend of mine reckons.
"virus`s are another ballgame,,,,virus`s infect our plants,,,its actually more serious than allot of people realize,,,,it is possible to selectively clone away from infected plant tissue,,this "selective cloning" leaves some clones free from infection,,,so virus`s can be avoided or removed from plant tissue,,the best method for removing virus`s are tissue culture or micro-propagation"
So I just don't know.

 

[Microbeman]

It is true that a virus can cause permanent change in the plant, and this virus can cause stress. However, it is not the stress itself that is causing a permanent change in the plant. Stress, AFAIK, does not cause permanent changes in a plant.

Please read the citations on environmental stress caused DNA damage or just google new ones.

Oxidation shortens telomeres and causes the degradation of the cell lines that make up the cannabis plant.

oxidation = stress

Anecdotes are not evidence, and for very good reason. Your claim is not obvious, at least to me. I have taken a crappy clone of a clone from a stressed plant, and then turned that clone into a perfectly healthy mother that was, from my perspective, 100% identical to the plant as it was received by me.

Please reread what I wrote. It is a pure method of expressing scientific hypothesis/logic. It was not a 'fact' presented from anecdotes. Anecdotal evidence is completely acceptable if one is presenting observations and not drawing conclusions. This sort of evidence is included in peer reviewed papers all the time.

I have taken a crappy clone of a clone from a stressed plant, and then turned that clone into a perfectly healthy mother that was, from my perspective, 100% identical to the plant as it was received by me.

Here you have repeated what I just finished saying which you chose to cut out of my quote.

"There is also evidence (which I posted early in the thread) that it may be possible to reverse such traits.

Again, these traits observed may or may not be related to a direct alteration of DNA."

 

[beta]

oxidation = stress

I agree that oxidation causes stress. However, it's the process of oxidation itself that causes shortened telomeres (and, presumably, genetic change), not the stress. In other words, both stress and telomere shortening are byproducts of oxidation. After all, not all stresses cause telomere shortening.

Anecdotal evidence is completely acceptable if one is presenting observations and not drawing conclusions.

As long as you aren't using it to support any particular position, anecdotal experience is fine by me...

Again, these traits observed may or may not be related to a direct alteration of DNA.

Fair enough.

 

[ShroomDr]

can not really be compared to a weedy little annual like cannabis in this instance.

Marijuana is not a weed. Calling it 'a weedy little' anything implies a dis-ingenuousness.

What about Hops? Same, cannabaceae family & can be propagated vegetatively.

Im just wondering how deep your rabbit hole goes.. Trees, vines, how about a plant in the same family as MJ?

 

[highonmt]

Stress is not a permanent condition, and does not affect a plant genetically.

In other words, stress does not cause degradation - It causes, at most, a temporary response.

Huh? I have a feeling 100 years worth of medical researchers would tend to disagree. What about a heart attack? The stress may end but it is the physical effects/ responses to stress that do cause many permanent problems in plants,humans, and almost all studied organisms. Here is a good experiment that I accidently tried. Take a mother plant...turn off the lights and drop the temperature to 40 and let the media dry out for 5 days...now turn on the lights revive the plant and clone it...in my experiment the resulting plants were spindly stretchy low yeilding hermie prone junk...your logic just doesn't fit the real world IMO. There are of course other responces of plants to stress that are known to occur, among these are gene activation which is known to cause morphological changes in plants when stressed. When and if these genes are switched off and on is not well understood as far as I know. When the immune system of an organism is stimulated the production of compounds with oxidative potential is increased. If enough stress is applied (enough is an individual based measure
) the plant will lose telomere length and certain cell lines will undergo senescence. I never said telomeric shortening was the ONLY effect at play just that it was missing from the disscussion. Great informative thread this...
HM