Clone of a Clone of a... Degredation Experiment

[headband 707]

chance of actually producing an edible apple by sowing 5 seeds is close to zero. Chance of finding a single edible apple by sowing a whole acre is just a bit better than that. It takes many years and many resources to produce a new apple variety. In the old days the demand for cider resulted in great genetic diversity in apple orchards. Once in a while an eating apple shows up and that gets propagated asexually. In the case of the mcintosh, we see what happens when one of these cultivars resists environmental calamity (some very cold winters in the northeast USA), while all others are killed. New York State is just starting to produce a notable quantity of non mcintosh apples. They are usually found in farm markets. Further, because today's apple industry no longer depends on hard cider for income, only edible or juicing apples are grown. Any new varieties now have to be developed at great cost and effort.

as for navel oranges, why are you arguing with me over facts? the fact is that all navel oranges come from a single parent, and all cavendish (what you call "fruit banana") are genetically identical. These facts are not controverted by any other facts about other types of orange or banana.

The cavendish is not the only "fruit banana" out there. Nor, in my opinion, is it the tastiest. BUT, it is a money maker and any other type of "fruit banana" is seen only in higher end stores. The threat from depending on just this one set of genes for such a huge portion of the global fresh fruit supply is very real and very scary.

I believe your last agrument was oranges don't make seeds and neither do bananna's .. I believe you said somthing like " on what planet or somthing like that". Seeing as though I have grown both from seed and not for fruit I thought I would correct you on that one. And yes apple seeds will produce a cider tree for the most part, and btw who is aruing? Headband707

 

[madliberated]

I believe your last agrument was oranges don't make seeds and neither do bananna's .. I believe you said somthing like " on what planet or somthing like that

you should read again. I said navel oranges are by definition seedless. Which means it can only be propagated asexually, and they are all clones of clones.

Twelve such cuttings of the original tree were transplanted[33] to Riverside, California in 1870, which eventually led to worldwide popularity.[32] The California Citrus State Historic Park preserves this history in Riverside, California, as does the Orcutt Ranch Horticulture Center in Los Angeles County, California.

. So we are talking well over a century, with the original traits and quality still preserved.

and neither do bananna's

I said cavendish bananas won't breed true from seed, or that's how they would be grown. If I say it won't breed true from seed, obviously it must have seeds. I also have eaten one before and I saw the seeds. Then, I gave a little education on what is a cavendish, since you have eaten so many in your lifetime, but not one of them said "cavendish" on the label. Most people know about "bananas and plantains", but they don't know what a cavendish is, which is the real distinction here, and notable in this thread because it is an example of keeping the same genes going for a VERY long time.

 

[headband 707]

you should read again. I said navel oranges are by definition seedless. Which means it can only be propagated asexually, and they are all clones of clones. . So we are talking well over a century, with the original traits and quality still preserved.


I also said cavendish bananas won't breed true from seed, or that's how they would be grown. Then, I gave a little education on what is a cavendish, since you have eaten so many in your lifetime, but not one of them said "cavendish" on the label. Most people know about "bananas and plantains", but they don't know what a cavendish is, which is the real distinction here, and notable in this thread because it is an example of keeping the same genes going for a VERY long time.

Do you think that is why they TASTE so shitty now? lol peace out Headband707

 

[madliberated]

Do you think that is why they TASTE so shitty now?

they are not my favorite. I like the little ones with seeds. I find navel oranges give up a whole lot of flavor for the convenience of easy peeling and no seeds. It's the closest thing to junk food you can grow on a plant.

cavendish bananas are just as boring.


Like I pointed out, both of these examples can teach us a lot about the benefits and drawbacks of asexual reproduction.

 

[Honkytonk]

Like I pointed out, both of these examples can teach us a lot about the benefits and drawbacks of asexual reproduction.

Obviously, if one takes clones of specimens with only one desirable trait, one gets exactly that: a clone with just one desirable trait.
What else do your examples teach us? Please elaborate.

 

[Microbeman]

Obviously, if one takes clones of specimens with only one desirable trait, one gets exactly that: a clone with just one desirable trait.
What else do your examples teach us? Please elaborate.

When one is taking cuttings of cuttings of cuttings of cuttings.....for years and years and years, one gives up the choice of a wide variety of traits....simple; if that's what was meant [aargh! I did it again; bad finger! don't touch keyboard!!!]

While I'm at it; I've had some splendid apples from trees grown from seed; backwoods apples.

 

[madliberated]

backwoods apples.

aka "lottery winners".

What else do your examples teach us? Please elaborate.

specifically: that reducing diversity is a necessary part of achieving uniformity. Uniformity is good, because it allows us to take a standard approach to cultivation - in other words we can work together and as a group learn to make better choices to get better and more reliable quality and yields.

Conversely, achieving diversity will protect us from losing all of our work from a new pest that takes advantage of lost resistances that get extinguished from not being selected, and results in more innovative hybrids and new desirable traits. With more diversity, it's harder for us to work together, and results are much more uneven. Each grower has to be more self-reliant.

I vote for diversity and taking my chances, because I operate under the fundamental assumption that a viable plant can get what it needs from a wide range of possible soils, so long as it is left in charge. I can concentrate on learning how to achieve the best soil with my peers, instead of worrying too much about how to adjust it to each plant.

 

[Happy 7]

Sorry, i can't follow.
I was under the impression one takes clones because one doesn't want variation.
How is no variation a drawback of cloning?
If one wants variation -> Don't use clones.

 

[madliberated]

How is no variation a drawback of cloning?

It's both bane and boon. You get nothing without giving up something in return. No risk, no reward.

 

[Happy 7]

What do i give up?
The unwanted variation that clone users try to avoid?

 

[madliberated]

What do i give up?

I said this already I think: you give up a degree of protection from disaster and pests, spontaneous development of new and interesting traits, and the protection of hard-won genetic information in the form of seeds.

You can try to mitigate these problems by backing up your genetics with a bit of pollination to make seeds once in a while, and just starting with seeds to find mothers and fathers contributes to diversity in the overall gene pool, especially if you donate seeds.

It's also safer to run 2 distinct sets of clones than 1, safer to run 3 than 2, safer to run 4 than 3, etc... however it is more of a pain in the ass

diversity is also your friend if it's a personal grow, where profits and total yield are not an issue.

two guys in a 20 square mile radius running two strains is safer than two guys running one strain, etc... as far as the health of the overall gene pool, but their products will both be a little more expensive to make than one uniform operation.

Diversity=more expensive at the outset

 

[Happy 7]

I see, you imply that using clones and growing from seed are mutually exclusive paths...

 

[madliberated]

I see, you imply that using clones and growing from seed are mutually exclusive paths...

no... I believe I explicitly supported using one to balance the other

 

[hazydreams]

figure i would throw my hat into this scrum...

I am personally growing a strain that is more then 20 years old to my knowledge. The old grower started with it back in the 1980s (possibly longer ago) and has been cloning it ever since. The haze, as its since been named has been in my posession since early 2000. I have cloned a clone of a clone of a clone for the past 11 years with no reduction in potency or vigor. it still grows like it used to for me, same way everytime.

Now, being that the plant itself has been cloned so many times i can not attest to the original flowering of the plant that came from the bean way back when that started. But i do know that in the past 11 years there has been no decernable drop off in quantity, quality or potency in those 11 years.

i can see the loss in vigor from seed to clone. but as far as the clone of a clone being less strong, schenanigans. I have seen poor clones from the haze produce poorly. but no decrease in potency. the weaker clone grows slowly and doesnt take off like a healthy one does. It ends up being smaller so obviously it produces less. i suspect if i took a crap clone and vegged it for the extra week or two it requires to catch up to the good clone that it would produce the same quality and quantity.

my two cents with very little science behind it.

 

[BongRipkenJR.]

I know from first hand experience that if you have a cut, lets say Bubba Kush for example. If you get the clone and mother it out, take some clones, grow em out and they are chronic the long you keep the mother or grow the clones of the original mother into more mothers the quality will start to suffer as a result. I have also seen recessive traits come out. Like a 6-7 week green crack turn into a 9 week green crack and not yield in optimal conditions. Even looking healthy with no deficiencies or problems still took over two weeks longer and didn't nug up. There is a lot of reading here and I just skimmed over so I may not be touching down on any relevant issues.

 

[highonmt]

Sounds like ya'll need to smoke a joint and chill out a bit on the apples, oranges, bananas yada yada yada . The bottom line is that cloning cannabis preserves a specific desired genotype/ phenotype by using vegetative propagation instead of sexual prop. Degradation of the genetic material of cannabis does occur in some cases IMO due to failure on the growers part to provide optimum conditions and probably form lack of active telomerase be it because of stress, life stage of the cloned tissue or just the plants genetic code. By producing seeds you are using sexual propagation to produce apple seeds orange seeds or cannabis seed, etc and the bets are off on what recombination will turn out from the genes of the parents. The results Sexual propagation can be steered toward the desired phenotypic profile by careful selection of breeding partners ;after all every "clone only" stain of any plant came from seed. But sexual propagation has nothing at all to do with vegetative propagation and the resulting genetic degradation/drift or lack thereof. Of course the ability of cannabis to be sexually labile allows for production of an S1 generation that is not possible for many plants that are stuck in an individual sexual role. Plants as a group have a pretty complicated sex life but vegetative propagation makes it all relatively simple.Too bad we can't activate telomerase like a bristlecone and enjoy new years 2511.
HM

 

[madliberated]

By producing seeds you are using sexual propagation to produce apple seeds orange seeds or cannabis seed, etc and the bets are off on what recombination will turn out from the genes of the parents.

Of the 3, you must only have experience with cannabis seeds, or you wouldn't think of or describe them using the same words. The variation from parent to offspring in apples to cannabis is like, well, apples and oranges.

You can breed a cannabis plant that will give you similar traits when bred with itself. You can do that with tomatoes.

You can't do it with apples. That's what makes them special.

sounds like ya'll need to smoke a joint and chill out a bit on the apples, oranges, bananas yada yada yada

ok, i'll go smoke a joint, chill out on some apples, oranges, and a bed of yada yada yada.

 

[highonmt]

Of the 3, you must only have experience with cannabis seeds, or you wouldn't think of or describe them using the same words. The variation from parent to offspring in apples to cannabis is like, well, apples and oranges.

You can breed a cannabis plant that will give you similar traits when bred with itself. You can do that with tomatoes.

You can't do it with apples. That's what makes them special.



ok, i'll go smoke a joint, chill out on some apples, oranges, and a bed of yada yada yada.

Dude whats up with you and apples? I thought this thread was about vegetative propagation and loss of vigor in cannabis. Who here really cares about variability and the sex life of apples? I don't. I do however care about cannabis propagation and how to limit the loss of prized medicinal cannabis strains.

OK so who here takes clones in early flower? and if you do have you seen degradation of your strains. I think it would be interesting to see an experiment in which the same strain was repeatedly cloned in veg and early flower. The presence of telomerase in flowering is known as is the lack thereof in vegetative tissue and it would interesting to see if the difference in longevity of the strain was noticeable.
HM

 

[madliberated]

I'm sorry I didn't make the point you were interested in.

Maybe somebody else was!



EDIT: FWIW, specifically with Cannabis, I think a glitch can happen any time, and will, if you take enough cuts. Murphy's law. But if a lot of people have lots of cuts, you can go get the same genes from before the glitch.

also, I have grown two cuts of the same mother into two completely different plants just by changing soil type and volume.

 

[Lorien]

Clones of clones of clones for 20+ years is no problem as long as the plants are well maintained and virus free.


...........
-SamS

Yeah but can any of us REALLY remember what a clone tasted and smelled like abd the minute fluctuations in the high 20 years after a clone is taken? or even 5 or 6? Heck even one year?