Cheap Nutrient Line for Commercial and Home Grows?

[eek a penis]

In discussions with the people that make Promix they have said that urea can still be broken down in Promix. It has enough bacteria to do the job. It seems that the worries about urea are pretty unfounded for most substrates. I've always liked this thread where someone tests orchids growing on bark and they grow just fine with urea based fertilizer, busting an old orchid myth with a good old-fashioned experiment. There are other good reasons to avoid urea in hydroponics and indoor growing though, but outside I wouldn't hesitate to use it.

https://garden.org/thread/view/10785/Urea-vs-non-urea-fertilizers/

Thanks for the info. Reading through that link also answered some of my curiosity because they were also talking about promix being iiight for urea. That being said do you think the jacks 321 would still be a better option even though I’m outdoor? I was reading through the jacks post a few posts down and Bill replied to someone asking about jacks classic, BillFarthing said great for soil buuuuttt soiless still recommends the jacks 321. That same recommendation for outdoor soiless growing?

 

[gh@st]

Jacks for the win

 

[eyesdownchronic]

fun little math for ya'll.

Drip Clean is a 0- .18-.6 and the recommended rate is .1 ml /L

= .18 ppm of P205 (active ingredient).
cost is about $35-$45/ L.

Haifa Gro Clean (5-31-40)
to reach .18 ppm of P205, required mixing rate is ~.002 g per gallon... (actually equals .16 ppm, whatevr.) to make a stock solution equivelant to drip clean, required dilution rate is 5g/L to use at the .1 ml/l or .4ml/g. so 1lb of grow clean could make ~90 L of drip clean.
cost is about $180 plus shipping for 55 pounds (this will last many lifetimes).
**edit- I dont know how i didnt realize you can purchase just 1 or 4 pounds of the Grow Clean from custom hydro nutes. the 1 pounds like 12 bucks with shipping. So 90L of Drip Clean for about $10. so about 10 cents a liter.


anyways long story short you could mix up 4,950L of Drip Clean solution for $180. ~ $0.035 / L ... thats a 1000x markup for it to be premixed for ya.

**edit heres the actual math
1ml/ L = 1000 ppm, .1ml / L = 100 ppm
so .1lm/L of a 1% solution would equal 1ppm of solute. meaning .1ml / L of a .18% (Drip Clean P concentration) solution equals
=.18ppm P205.

Haifa Grow Clean Part

PPM to weight Calculation is (ppm/conc. * 3.78 /1000 = g's / gal)
.18 / .31 = .58 * 3.78 = 2.19 / 1000 = .0022. I just rounded to .002 for simplicity here.

to create a solution to mix at .1ml / L would require mixing at at a rate 10,000x so .002 x 10,000 = 20 g / gal or about 5g / L.


anyone feel free to correct me if i made a mistake

 

[BillFarthing]

fun little math for ya'll.


Drip Clean is= .18 ppm of P205 (active ingredient).
cost is about $35-$45/ L.

thats a 1000x markup for it to be premixed for ya.

There's some debate between polyphosphates and organophosphates, but at the end of the day they do the same thing. I think your math is correct, which is yet another reason THE HYDROPONICS STORE IS A RIP OFF!

 

[einsteinlady]

Hey bill what do you think about this in place of jacks a and b

 

[BillFarthing]

That looks great as a base as long as it has all the micros.

 

[indagroove]

fun little math for ya'll.


Drip Clean is a 0- .18-.6 and the recommended rate is .1 ml /L

= .18 ppm of P205 (active ingredient).
cost is about $35-$45/ L.


Haifa Gro Clean (5-31-40)
to reach .18 ppm of P205 mixing rate mixing rate is ~.002 g per gallon... (actually equals .16 ppm, whatevr) to make a stock solution equivelant to drip clean mixing rate is 5g/L to use at same rate as drip clean .1 ml/l or .4ml/g. so 1lb of grow clean could make ~90 L of drip clean.

cost is about $180 plus shipping for 55 pounds (this will last many lifetimes)

anyways long story short you could mix up 4,950L of Drip Clean solution for $180. ~ $0.035 / L ... thats a 1000x markup for it to be premixed for ya.


anyone feel free to correct me if i made a mistake

There's some debate between polyphosphates and organophosphates, but at the end of the day they do the same thing. I think your math is correct, which is yet another reason THE HYDROPONICS STORE IS A RIP OFF!

I don't use Drip Clean, but I do have a bottle of DH FloraKleen which I use at end of the cycle. I've had the same bottle for a few years now, which was a free sample from the hydro store FTW.

 

[BillFarthing]

I don't use Drip Clean, but I do have a bottle of DH FloraKleen which I use at end of the cycle. I've had the same bottle for a few years now, which was a free sample from the hydro store FTW.

Drip Clean uses phosphates to clean drip lines. FloraKleen is a bit different as an isotonic solution to help plants finish.

 

[indagroove]

Drip Clean uses phosphates to clean drip lines. FloraKleen is a bit different as an isotonic solution to help plants finish.

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification.

 

[eyesdownchronic]

I'm running Jacks Hydro and their Calnit but I'm moving toward mixing my own. Frankly getting the micros right is the only thing that's giving me pause. Hoping to figure it out by the time I run out of the Jacks.

Here's my post-stretch numbers as of today. I adjusted the numbers down a bit. 161-71-211-184-51 @ 1.4EC

Those numbers include .5G/G of MKP and 60ppm of Biomin Calcium(1-0-0-5)

I cut the reccomended jacks/ calnit to about 40% concentration. ie divide everything by 2.5. the 321 was waayy to strong for my environment, plus 3-2.5-1 ratio seems abit bettter. i started cutting everything by half, and the ec came out about 1.4, and it still seemed a bit much, so i knocked it down a tad more and now my ec comes out about 1 in veg and 1.2 in flower, and everybody seems happier, i might even drop it some more here in a while, we'll see.. in addition to the JAck's- Calnit- Epsom ive been supplementing gypsum plus agsil and micros. in flower, trying out different ratios of MKP, MAP, and K2SO4 for stretch, bloom, and finish. have some solution grade kelp and molasses to add to the Agt-50/ Mr. F as well. gotta say everything is looking on point.
also trying out "ammending" my base Jack's feed for flower by adding MKP, K2SO4, and MAP, im not actually mixing the raw salts, but when i mix my feed i work with a ratio of 3:1:1:.25 respectively. this makes the "base" flower feed ~3-19-31.

anyways, ive been using the Plant Prod. Micro at .04 g /gal. (40% reccomendation) and everything definitely looks more toned . the micro plus agsil is a game changer.

 

[ButterflyEffect]

i

I cut the reccomended jacks/ calnit to about 40% concentration. ie divide everything by 2.5. the 321 was waayy to strong for my environment, plus 3-2.5-1 ratio seems abit bettter. i started cutting everything by half, and the ec came out about 1.4, and it still seemed a bit much, so i knocked it down a tad more and now my ec comes out about 1 in veg and 1.2 in flower, and everybody seems happier, i might even drop it some more here in a while, we'll see.. in addition to the JAck's- Calnit- Epsom ive been supplementing gypsum plus agsil and micros. in flower, trying out different ratios of MKP, MAP, and K2SO4 for stretch, bloom, and finish. have some solution grade kelp and molasses to add to the Agt-50/ Mr. F as well. gotta say everything is looking on point.
also trying out "ammending" my base Jack's feed for flower by adding MKP, K2SO4, and MAP, im not actually mixing the raw salts, but when i mix my feed i work with a ratio of 3:1:1:.25 respectively. this makes the "base" flower feed ~3-19-31.

anyways, ive been using the Plant Prod. Micro at .04 g /gal. (40% reccomendation) and everything definitely looks more toned . the micro plus agsil is a game changer.

Agree on it being too hot. I've been actively tweaking the recipes for a few weeks now. I range from 1.2-1.4EC as of today. I think the mr fulvic created less need for a higher feed.

Is the gypsum the only extra source of calcium you use? What ppm do you shoot for? Do you cut it after stretch?

So you add micros to the Jacks? Why would I want to add more than the mix already has? I do have some of the MOST laying around.

I do a weekly foliar with agsil only so I don't have to mess with the effect on the pH.

What media do you run in? Sorry for peppering you with all of these questions!

 

[eyesdownchronic]

i

Agree on it being too hot. I've been actively tweaking the recipes for a few weeks now. I range from 1.2-1.4EC as of today. I think the mr fulvic created less need for a higher feed.

Is the gypsum the only extra source of calcium you use? What ppm do you shoot for? Do you cut it after stretch?

So you add micros to the Jacks? Why would I want to add more than the mix already has? I do have some of the MOST laying around.

I do a weekly foliar with agsil only so I don't have to mess with the effect on the pH.

What media do you run in? Sorry for peppering you with all of these questions!

no worries, you're good.



for Calcium, gypsum is the only additional source im using now. im still trying to find a good rate, but ive been doing around .2 g in veg, and then .6-.8 g during stretch, before dropping it back down to the .2 level. Im thinking i may get the metalosate as well, at least for foliar every once in while. unfortunately, my water is fairly hard/ alkaline so im worried that gypsum isnt that compatible with my water. im looking at getting a "drip clean" type product to help with that. i guess Mr. F helps as well. i also run at a slighlty higher Cal-Nit level. im not really shooting for exact ppm's. im more interested in the ratio between my nutrients if that makes sense.

and to the micros, yes, i add micros on top of Jack's. I initally was doing micro drenches every other week or so just for a couple plants, and they always seemed to look very nice after, so i started phasing small levels into my general feed and everything seems to have responded very nicely. im only adding .04 g /gal which is under .5x so its not too much. plants don't seem to grow that much larger, but they become a much richer / darker shade of green and the growth is harder/ more toned, although im sure the Sil helps with that. they just seem to be operating more smoothly.



yeah, i have to add almost twice the acid when i use the Sil.

I also made a stock solution for the AgSil so I dont constantly need to be using the powder. Stuff is a bit more dangerous to handle than most other nutes, even though i use a dust mask and gloves when i work with salts.



and for my media im primarily in coco. some soil, but moving into only using coco.



i also forgot to mention that ive been using OG bio war as a microbial innoculant and now the roots on my veg plants are bright white and fuzzy.

 

[BillFarthing]

I think the mr fulvic created less need for a higher feed.

They say you can reduce your base feed 10-25% because chelation works like an electrolyte for the plant.

So you add micros to the Jacks? Why would I want to add more than the mix already has? I do have some of the MOST laying around.

Jack's already has a great mix of micros. Fulvic helps those transport into the plant. You don't need to add additional micros.

 

[ButterflyEffect]

no worries, you're good.



for Calcium, gypsum is the only additional source im using now. im still trying to find a good rate, but ive been doing around .2 g in veg, and then .6-.8 g during stretch, before dropping it back down to the .2 level. Im thinking i may get the metalosate as well, at least for foliar every once in while. unfortunately, my water is fairly hard/ alkaline so im worried that gypsum isnt that compatible with my water. im looking at getting a "drip clean" type product to help with that. i guess Mr. F helps as well. i also run at a slighlty higher Cal-Nit level. im not really shooting for exact ppm's. im more interested in the ratio between my nutrients if that makes sense.

and to the micros, yes, i add micros on top of Jack's. I initally was doing micro drenches every other week or so just for a couple plants, and they always seemed to look very nice after, so i started phasing small levels into my general feed and everything seems to have responded very nicely. im only adding .04 g /gal which is under .5x so its not too much. plants don't seem to grow that much larger, but they become a much richer / darker shade of green and the growth is harder/ more toned, although im sure the Sil helps with that. they just seem to be operating more smoothly.



yeah, i have to add almost twice the acid when i use the Sil.

I also made a stock solution for the AgSil so I dont constantly need to be using the powder. Stuff is a bit more dangerous to handle than most other nutes, even though i use a dust mask and gloves when i work with salts.



and for my media im primarily in coco. some soil, but moving into only using coco.



i also forgot to mention that ive been using OG bio war as a microbial innoculant and now the roots on my veg plants are bright white and fuzzy.

Thanks! This is very informative.

I've been using Biomin calcium, but it also spikes my pH, especially in buckets that I mix, but don't fully use right away like for Veg. I also have the Growmore Calmag, but for foliars only. May pick up that metalosate, as well. I have the gypsum now so I want to start using it.

When you talk of ratios between nutes, do you mean between Jacks and Calnit? Or Ca:Mg and the like? I haven't gotten fully into the latter yet, but I do have specific ratios of Jacks/Calnit for different phases.

Agreed on the agsil concentrate. Made some up a while back after paying through the nose for protekt! Good point though, highly toxic stuff we're messing with! I do have to be mindful of anything that messes with my pH. I'm in hempys and just using the Biomin caused my rootzone to jump very high, as the res takes a day to empty. As it is, two of my rooms are already .5-1.0 points higher in pH runoff.

I'm thinking I'll need a jewelers scale to weigh out the micros. I'll need one eventually if I decide to mix my own salts from scratch.

I don't have anything like Biowar yet, just some Actinovate for a suspected Septoria in one room. Plants did respond very well, though.

I tell ya, I'd love to make the jump to coco. This way I could bring my blumats back into the mix. So much easier! Just not sure I could handle the learning curve yet. I have 3 perpetual rooms to consider.

 

[eyesdownchronic]

Thanks! This is very informative.

I've been using Biomin calcium, but it also spikes my pH, especially in buckets that I mix, but don't fully use right away like for Veg. I also have the Growmore Calmag, but for foliars only. May pick up that metalosate, as well. I have the gypsum now so I want to start using it.

When you talk of ratios between nutes, do you mean between Jacks and Calnit? Or Ca:Mg and the like? I haven't gotten fully into the latter yet, but I do have specific ratios of Jacks/Calnit for different phases.

Agreed on the agsil concentrate. Made some up a while back after paying through the nose for protekt! Good point though, highly toxic stuff we're messing with! I do have to be mindful of anything that messes with my pH. I'm in hempys and just using the Biomin caused my rootzone to jump very high, as the res takes a day to empty. As it is, two of my rooms are already .5-1.0 points higher in pH runoff.

I'm thinking I'll need a jewelers scale to weigh out the micros. I'll need one eventually if I decide to mix my own salts from scratch.

I don't have anything like Biowar yet, just some Actinovate for a suspected Septoria in one room. Plants did respond very well, though.

I tell ya, I'd love to make the jump to coco. This way I could bring my blumats back into the mix. So much easier! Just not sure I could handle the learning curve yet. I have 3 perpetual rooms to consider.

**edit let me rewrite this. lol

Interesting about the Biomin, I imagine its breaking down over time?
How do you like the Growmore CalMag? seems nice except its out of stock everywhere.

To the ratios. i started off trying to work with ppm's but given that my way of measurement is EC, increasing ppm's of anyone nutirent would mean a reduction in the rest of the feed, so working with ratios seems more appropriate . I also calculated my ppms for my current trial veg feed and just from looking at it makes me think my plants would be deficient. (56-17-68.5) , but everything in veg honestly looks on point.
So to the ratios. (sorry for the upcoming wall of text) I more or less think about it in different parts. Base, Calmag, and bloom.

base feed part is just jack's and calnit, and compared more as a by weight than a ppm comparison. starting with a 3-2.5-0 recommendation which seems popular here on icmag coming from ichabod crane iirc. this is my starting baseline, and the actual level of feed in veg.

During flower everything gets more complicated. I was using this ratio + bloom boost in flower, but still found growth to favor "vegetative growth" more than I would like. This spurred me to "ammend" my base feed with MKP+K2SO4+MAP. i had wanted to switch to Masterblend tomoato (4-18-38), but didnt due to concerns from running KCl. i also considered simply buying Jack's Bloom Boost 10-30-20, but given that I already have all the ingredients, it seemed wasteful to buy another product. I also have more control this way.
So, I "ammend at a ratio of 3:1:1:.25 Jack's:MKP:k2so4:MAP which ends up being a (3-19-31). In response, I also up my CalNit levels to compensate from lost N. Masterblend reccomend a 1:1 by weight ratio, so that's my approximate baseline comparison for Jacks "Flower" : Cal nit. so... 1.4 g cal nit, .8g Jack's, .25g MKP, .25g K2SO4, .1 g MAP. (i also increase epsom and micro, to compensate from the decreased Jack's, by 50%, to .6g and .06g respectively, i know its confusing)

To Calmag.
i like the extra Cal level from the 3-2.5 base,but i do not drop the epsom salt. i found that things can get very mg def. in my env. especially during veg when plants grow under LED. so i keep the 1g of epsom salt while adding .5 g of gypsum. this equals about a 1:1 cal mag ratio (from epsom and gypsum alone). this puts the feed ratio at 3-2.5-1-.5 (all divided by 2.5 to acheive the 40% level) (1.2-1-.4-.2) and thats pretty much my veg feed. plus .08 g or in my case 2 ml of AgSil, and .04 g micro. feed comes at about .9-1 ec
during transition, im trying out a 3:1 - 4:1 cal mag, keeping my epsom the "same" from veg and moving gypsum to .6-.8g. this is all a trial, and could change here soon. after transition gypsum drops back down to the .2g level.

In addition to the ammended flower base. Im trying out different ratios of MKP,MAP, and K2SO4 for boosters during transition, bloom, and finish.
during early flower trial bloom boost is 1:2:1 MKP:MAP:k2so4 (6-43-22) ~1.5-1 P:K ratio
mid flower it goes to 2:1:1 (3-40-30) ~1:1 P:K ratio
finish 1.2:0:.8 (0-30-40) ~1:2 P:K ratio
these all get run at about .2-.4 g/gal
flower feed ec comes out about 1.2 ec

PRetty much the feed is a very heavy tone feed for veg and as a flower base. (High Nitrate N, High Calmag levels, high micros, Si, low P for veg.) Flower gets P plus mild NH4 boost to stimulate more explosive growth. I think growers need to be less afraid of N and P, just treat them with the respect they deserve. A little goes a hell of a long way. I can tell a visible difference in my plants after just a couple MAP feeds at .2g / gal (under 10 ppm N, ~15ppm P.)


seems extremely complicated when i explain it, but everything is already calculated out, so its no more difficult than following a multi part bottle feed.
everything is also very subject to change. its definitely easier to get a veg feed dialed in than a flower one.

What is hempys? ive seen many people refer to it here. is it a soil mix?

and i like the OGBW. although im thinking i might just try Real Grower Rechrge next time. dont know if i need all the "pesticide type" bacteria and fungi, really only want the ones that stimulate root growth. I got a great deal on it, but its generally expensive af.

i honestly think coco is easier than soil. it was a bit of a change at first as Im usually a fairly dry grower, so it was weird having to water everyday. but now that im used to it, its easier to just come in and water everything as opposed to having to go through and check if plants need water or not.

 

[ButterflyEffect]

Interesting about the Biomin, I imagine its breaking down over time?
How do you like the Growmore CalMag? seems nice except its out of stock everywhere.

And about the ratios, i was trying to work with ppm's but given that im shooting for a specific ec, i cant really add more ppms of one thing without reducing everything else, so trying to work with ratios kinda makes more sense. I also calculated my ppms for my current veg feed, and just looking at it, i would think everything would be deficient as fuck (56-17-68.5) , but everything in veg honestly looks on point.
So to the ratios. (sorry for wall of text) I more or less break it down into the Base feed chunk, Calmag, and then bloom booster.

base feed part is just jack's and calnit, and im using a 3-2.5-0 recommendation which seems popular here on icmag coming from ichabod crane iirc.

i like the extra Cal level from the base, except the drop in epsom salt seems extreme, and stuff can get mg def. especially under led's in my env. so i kept the 1g of epsom salt while adding .5 g of gypsum. this equals about a 1:1 cal mag ratio (for epsom and gypsum alone). so now we're at 3-2.5-1-.5 (all divided by 2.5) (1.2-1-.4-.2) and thats pretty much my veg feed. plus .08 g or in my case 2 ml of AgSil, and .04 g micro. feed is about .9-1 ec

during transition, im trying out a 3:1 - 4:1 cal mag, keeping my epsom the same and moving gypsum to .6-.8g. again, this is all being tried out so this may change here soon. after transition gypsum drops back down to .2g.

flower gets a bit more complicated. I was running my base veg feed with the MKP and K2s04 bloom boostl but stuff still seemed to favor veg growth, so instead of flat out dropping Cal-Nit which could fuck with Cal levels, I "ammended" my base feed. the goal was to try and move towards the masterblend tomato feed, without any KCl. so the chosen ratio is now 3:1:1:.25 of Jack's :MKP: K2SO4: MAP, equaling 3-19-31. this is in addition to MKP+K2SO4 bloom boost.
during early flower my bloom boost is 1:2:1 MKP:MAP:k2so4 (6-43-22) ~1.5-1 P:K ratio
mid flower it goes to 2:1:1 (3-40-30) ~1:1 P:K ratio
finish 1.2:0:.8 (0-30-40) ~1:2 P:K ratio
these all get run at about .2-.4 g/gal
flower feed ec comes out about 1.2-1.3

these are all very subject to change. its definitely easier to get a veg feed dialed in than a flower one.

What is hempys? ive seen many people refer to it here. is it a soil mix?

and i like the OGBW. although im thinking i might just try Real Grower Rechrge next time. dont know if i need all the "pesticide type" bacteria and fungi, really only want the ones that stimulate root growth. I got a great deal on it, but its generally expensive af.

i honestly think coco is easier than soil. it was a bit of a change at first, as Im usually a fairly dry grower, so it was weird having to water everyday. but now that im used to it, its easier to just come in and water everything as opposed to having to go through and check if plants need water or not.

So far, I can't say anything yet about the growmore, as I haven't dialed anything in wrt to the Ca, but in theory it's promising. It's on ebay at $32/Qt, so it gets used as a foliar only. Works well if I'm not fighting a Mg def. If that happens, I alternate with Epsom foliars. For the cost per use, it's a good tool to have as a foliar.

I think we're pretty similar feedwise. I don't use any KCL, MAP or K2SO4 at this time. I want to get the rest locked in before I go changing too much at one time. Hell, at that point I'd hope to know exactly what numbers I want to target and I'd just forgo the Jacks and run full raw salts. One day in the not too distant future, no doubt.

Here's a recent snapshot of how run things. I manually broke out the individual elements after reverse engineering the ingredients into Hydrobuddy to confirm the math.

Veg - 1.25EC -- 350 Jacks/240 Calnit + about .8G/Ga Epsom, or 1Tsp/5Ga. Works out very close to standard JR Peters numbers with slightly more Calnit. I add 60ppm Biomin(10N & 50Ca) to that and some Sulphuric acid for down. 156-39-160-181-87

Transition/Stretch - 1.4EC -- 400 Jacks/270 Calnit + 1Tsp Epsom + 60ppm Biomin. Slightly hotter. 175-44-183-197-74

Mid-Flower - 1.3EC -- 380 Jacks/255 Calnit, 1G/5G MKP(27ppm). No Biomin, No Epsom. I run this for weeks 4-6 for 60ish day strains. I add a week for 70-75 day ones. 156-54-189-139-51

I have two ripen profiles that drop the MKP and steadily reduce the ratio of Jacks to Calnit. It ends at a 3/1.5 Jacks ratio and ~350ppm

Everything runs around 5.8pH.

So right about veg being easier. Flower has 4 different mixes.

A hempy is just a bucket with a hole dripped in the side up from the bottom. The height from the bottom varies depending on the size of the container. The solos are about 3/4-1" and the 2G main pots are just under 2". It creates a reservoir of sorts. The media is a 4:1 Perlite/Vermiculite mix and I hand water daily. It's a fairly idiot-proof method, so perfect for me(for now!)

I'd love to give coco a shot at some point, although I might also try PPK, not sure yet. I like the growth rate promise of coco with it's multiple wet/dry cycles daily and the ability to use blumats(You should use them, they work very well once you dial them in). On the other hand, PPKs offer DWC growth rates with the simple foolproof nature of a hempy. Allegedly.

I'll have to look into the OGBW. I use Rhizotonic foliars regularly and a drench on occasion. I also use liquid smoke(pyroligneous acid occasionally, as well. Often when I want to run the pH down but I don't want to use the sulphuric for whatever reason. Supposedly very good for root health in addition to taste boost.

Thanks for the back and forth. This is good info!

 

[ButterflyEffect]

Lol. I think you were editing your post while I was writing mine! I followed you pretty good, actually.

I forgot to mention the I tried dropping the Mag in Veg, but plants did not like it at all. Could likely have been that I added more Ca and it through the ratio off, but I'm committed to ramping up the Ca early so they have enough in flower. I've been Ca deficient by the end of stretch ever since I switched away from soil.

 

[eyesdownchronic]

So far, I can't say anything yet about the growmore, as I haven't dialed anything in wrt to the Ca, but in theory it's promising. It's on ebay at $32/Qt, so it gets used as a foliar only. Works well if I'm not fighting a Mg def. If that happens, I alternate with Epsom foliars. For the cost per use, it's a good tool to have as a foliar.

I think we're pretty similar feedwise. I don't use any KCL, MAP or K2SO4 at this time. I want to get the rest locked in before I go changing too much at one time. Hell, at that point I'd hope to know exactly what numbers I want to target and I'd just forgo the Jacks and run full raw salts. One day in the not too distant future, no doubt.

Here's a recent snapshot of how run things. I manually broke out the individual elements after reverse engineering the ingredients into Hydrobuddy to confirm the math.

Veg - 1.25EC -- 350 Jacks/240 Calnit + about .8G/Ga Epsom, or 1Tsp/5Ga. Works out very close to standard JR Peters numbers with slightly more Calnit. I add 60ppm Biomin(10N & 50Ca) to that and some Sulphuric acid for down. 156-39-160-181-87

Transition/Stretch - 1.4EC -- 400 Jacks/270 Calnit + 1Tsp Epsom + 60ppm Biomin. Slightly hotter. 175-44-183-197-74

Mid-Flower - 1.3EC -- 380 Jacks/255 Calnit, 1G/5G MKP(27ppm). No Biomin, No Epsom. I run this for weeks 4-6 for 60ish day strains. I add a week for 70-75 day ones. 156-54-189-139-51

I have two ripen profiles that drop the MKP and steadily reduce the ratio of Jacks to Calnit. It ends at a 3/1.5 Jacks ratio and ~350ppm

Everything runs around 5.8pH.

So right about veg being easier. Flower has 4 different mixes.

A hempy is just a bucket with a hole dripped in the side up from the bottom. The height from the bottom varies depending on the size of the container. The solos are about 3/4-1" and the 2G main pots are just under 2". It creates a reservoir of sorts. The media is a 4:1 Perlite/Vermiculite mix and I hand water daily. It's a fairly idiot-proof method, so perfect for me(for now!)

I'd love to give coco a shot at some point, although I might also try PPK, not sure yet. I like the growth rate promise of coco with it's multiple wet/dry cycles daily and the ability to use blumats(You should use them, they work very well once you dial them in). On the other hand, PPKs offer DWC growth rates with the simple foolproof nature of a hempy. Allegedly.

I'll have to look into the OGBW. I use Rhizotonic foliars regularly and a drench on occasion. I also use liquid smoke(pyroligneous acid occasionally, as well. Often when I want to run the pH down but I don't want to use the sulphuric for whatever reason. Supposedly very good for root health in addition to taste boost.

Thanks for the back and forth. This is good info!

yeah, ive been concerned about changing too much at once, especially because i have plants in multiple stages. but im trying to stay committed to my feed for the next bit to see how plants handle it from day 1 to harvest. plants truly seem to be growing better than any of my previous runs so i cant complain.

How do you like the sulfuric acid?
thats something ive wanted to move to for a long time. it just seems like a big step up as far as required PPE goes, and also seems like a pain to purchase.

yeah our feeds seem similar.


lol, yup the next step is actually having flower feeds for different cultivars. hahah

my pH is generally 5.9-6, but im thinking of moving it a bit lower because my runoff consistenely comes out higher. I was thinking 5.7-5.8

woah, just perlite and vermiculite, thats gotta have a very low CEC. i imagine you need some crazy high calmag levels haha. although i bet you get "plenty of oxygen to the root zone." as franco (RIP) would say lol.

something else worth noting is that when i wet my Coco i use a super high cal mag feed. pretty much just dump a whole tbsp of epsom and two tbsp of gypsum into a 5gal bucket ec is like 2.5ish... ill let that sit for a while to saturate the CEC of the coco so im not losing cations when i feed. i also throw in like a tbsp of some old ass triple super phosphate (CalPhos) per 10 gallons or so of coco .

and its definetly nice to bounce ideas off others and see what other people are doing. thanks for your time and willingness to share.

 

[ButterflyEffect]

They say you can reduce your base feed 10-25% because chelation works like an electrolyte for the plant.





Jack's already has a great mix of micros. Fulvic helps those transport into the plant. You don't need to add additional micros.

I'm already down about 15% just since I introduced the mr fulvic!

As for the micros, I'd really like to avoid messing with them until I'm ready to completely mix my own.

 

[ButterflyEffect]

yeah, ive been concerned about changing too much at once, especially because i have plants in multiple stages. but im trying to stay committed to my feed for the next bit to see how plants handle it from day 1 to harvest. plants truly seem to be growing better than any of my previous runs so i cant complain.

How do you like the sulfuric acid?
thats something ive wanted to move to for a long time. it just seems like a big step up as far as required PPE goes, and also seems like a pain to purchase.

yeah our feeds seem similar.


lol, yup the next step is actually having flower feeds for different cultivars. hahah

my pH is generally 5.9-6, but im thinking of moving it a bit lower because my runoff consistenely comes out higher. I was thinking 5.7-5.8

woah, just perlite and vermiculite, thats gotta have a very low CEC. i imagine you need some crazy high calmag levels haha. although i bet you get "plenty of oxygen to the root zone." as franco (RIP) would say lol.

something else worth noting is that when i wet my Coco i use a super high cal mag feed. pretty much just dump a whole tbsp of epsom and two tbsp of gypsum into a 5gal bucket ec is like 2.5ish... ill let that sit for a while to saturate the CEC of the coco so im not losing cations when i feed. i also throw in like a tbsp of some old ass triple super phosphate (CalPhos) per 10 gallons or so of coco .

and its definetly nice to bounce ideas off others and see what other people are doing. thanks for your time and willingness to share.

Do you keep detailed logs? I've been slowly building toward it, but I'm really terrible at it! I've just created spreadsheets the I update with my numbers for every phase. When I mix my concentrates, I test them for ppm per ml(I mix 300G of each part to exactly 1G of water) then the formula tells me the ml I need to achieve whatever ppm I need. I figure this is the first step in tracking all the changes we do!

The sulfuric I use is just battery acid from the auto parts mixed with water. If you do, just make sure to add the acid to the water, not the other way around. Very important distinction. As far as PPE, I have a 3M respirator, safety glasses and rubber gloves that go to my elbows. To be honest though, I only have to use that for IPM, as I use Forbid & Floramite every 60 days in veg(I'm perpetual). The acid is as safe as anything else we use in the gardens.

Oh great! You had to go and throw that monkeywrench in there! Lol! Although, I've heard that most of your fussy eaters are just in need of either Ca or Mg, which should be easy to amend.

I'm kinda baffled by my root zone pH. No matter what pH I put in, it comes out around 7. No matter the room, the age or the phase. Very odd. And yes, almost non-existent cec. Now that my rainwater is properly filtered and UV'd I might experiment with other methods, who knows.

If I ever decide on coco, I'll let you know so you can work me through the growing pains!

Great to talk to you, as well. It's what makes this community great!