Ceramic Metal Halide (CMH)

[FreezerBoy]

Believe it or not, it has to do with the earth's polarity. They're set at the factory to arc in a particular direction. Hung "wrong" the arc fires in the wrong direction and can't find home where it was told it would be. Now the arc has to search for someplace to connect. It will do so but, the bulb that works twice as hard burns but half as long.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

I was just wanting confirmation that this is indeed the case (a physical item or setting).

Thing is, we see a drop in efficiency going from the vert bulb to the horz.
Is this drop in numbers due to the bulb just not being able to perform in the horz position as well as in the vert...with the correct setting for arc?

Or, could it be that we have the very same animal that is only differing in part number and stats when in the horz position? I would think that the more economical mfg wise, if I can properly estimate the hours and numbers of that bulb run in the horz position.

Am I making sense, or way off base?

 

[FreezerBoy]

You're probably on to ... something ... but, you've stumped my band. There's a point it all becomes voodoo to me. I barely understand what I wrote in the above post.

Being a 250 guy, I never noticed that the numbers on the 400 change. The lumens drop doesn't concern me much. It's small and lumens aren't the be-all-end-all we once thought. Why the Horizontal has a shorter lifespan is beyond me. 5000 hours ain't nuthin' to sneeze at.

I seem to recall from my aquarium days that horizontals were preferred because they delivered a considerable degree of direct light, whereas verticals were all bounce lighting. However, you couldn't drop a vertical lamp into the middle of an aquarium the way you would probably do in a vertically lit grow op.

I'll shut up now and wait for Simba or Az to set us straight.

 

[Pharma Geddon]

Here's hoping I can get the pic to upload.

Jacky White fems started under the 400w cmh. They were in small peat pots of p/v for almost 2 weeks (my preferred method of germination) then went into the 11 litre square pots of perlite, fed every day with full strength lucas formula, pH ~6.1.

The seeds first got wet 42 days ago.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=660409&size=big&sort=1&cat=500

 

[hurricane]

I paged through a bit, but its hard to find specifics. I'm looking to setup a 150W CMH to veg plants before they go into the flowering hut. While i could probably accomplish wiring this myself, i live in an apartment and would like to be safe as possible. Preferably i would like a professional enclosure like my 400W sunsystems ballast has. Where can i buy a fully assembled 150W pulse start MH ballast, preferably with a detachable cord that has the socket at the end so i can mount it in a hood(was thinking of using a daystar AC hood since i have a spare, or should a 150 use something smaller?).

hurricane

 

[dallas_boy]

Have the 600 & 1000 CMH been released yet? and will they still be compatible with the regular 1000HPS ballasts as the 250&400CMH are with the lower hps ballasts.
Someone told me that the release of the 600 and 1000 CMH will also only come in horizontal, is that bull?
Forgive me, I am behind in the lighting game.

-1000hps since day 1.

 

[simba]

the burning position is not just different stamping..
the 250 hor/vert and vet 400 look the same (clear glass at base)
the horizontal 400 has a silver lining
but there is a difference.
If you have HID headlights hold the bulb vertical and then move to horizontal you will see the light turn from blueish to YELLOW>> just because the orientation of the arc tube..

no word on 500w+ yet.. and they will be both wich one is first who knows till mfr date..

actually look for More effeciant Lower wattages.. (400 and lower) vs higher single watt lamp source.. (remember outdoors your plant gets little shadow IE light from all angles even at Dead Noon..)
(higher LPW IE 152 More effeciant.. for us.. to.. )
..

 

[Mr Celsius]

Man... still no 600's or 1000's... to bad, they're missing out on so much money.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

If you have HID headlights hold the bulb vertical and then move to horizontal you will see the light turn from blueish to YELLOW>> just because the orientation of the arc tube..

I don't, but let's talk CMH HID's.
Will the Philips 400wCMH change color with a different orientation?
And what are the implications of running a vert bulb horz, and visa-versa.
I am curious of the mfg process that allows the bulb to be run in a specific position.

 

[gramsci.antonio]

I don't, but let's talk CMH HID's.
Will the Philips 400wCMH change color with a different orientation?
And what are the implications of running a vert bulb horz, and visa-versa.
I am curious of the mfg process that allows the bulb to be run in a specific position.

it's just the magnetic field: since the light come from a flow of electrons, if the electrons have to go against the magnetic flow of the earth you'll see a lost in energy of the photon emitted by the movement of ions (elettrodinamic) and thus a phaseshift, from a more energy band (blue) to a lower one (yellow).

thomson did an experiment right on this topic.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

I have a slight grasp of the concept of the phase shift, what I am fuzzy on is how these bulbs manage the different orientations. I think the arc tube is positioned the same in both orientation of bulbs... so how are they managing a different magnetic flow using virtually the same arc tube?

Also, isn't much of the work that has been done in this area dealing with gas mediums? And isn't this a salt medium? Don't know if that is pertinent or not...

 

[gramsci.antonio]

i dunno the specific design of the CMH, but if they're designed like the HID i studied when back in high school, then what really matters is the orientation of the tungsten electrode.

More precisely, the inner product of the basis of the space normal to the electron flow and the vector direction of the earth magnetic field must be 0. If it's different than 0, the norm is directly related to the cosine of phi, where PHI is an angle which measure the phase shift, or lost of efficiency.

 

[simba]

Heya all..
Mr C. said "an... still no 600's or 1000's... to bad, they're missing out on so much money."
man i feel ya there loosing so many sales.. but the kicker there not missing any profit by holding back on cmh infact CMH is LESS PROFITABLE than any other LIGHT source out there to manufacture.. (inlcuding RF lamps)
its those dam cresemnt seals they are hard to get right.. and that means HIGH MFR failure rate IE 4 out of 10 bulbs wont even leave the factory.. hps 9 of 10 leave
thats on the 250 and 400s any mfr..

now to the orientation..
Hooser, hooser lets keep the big picture its HID>> Not CMH special etc..
ya said
"I don't, but let's talk CMH HID's."
MH, CMH, Xenon, etc are Burn oriented bulbs..

Will the Philips 400wCMH change color with a different orientation?
no the philips wont (nothing you can see)
in general Burn oriented HID will change a lil color wether u can see is the Q..
IE MH lamps are either labled
m400u (burn any wich way, shorter life than a orianted bulb)
m400/BU (Burn Base UP)
m400/H mh horizontal..
(if you look at orinated mh bulbs they look the same but there is differences)

And what are the implications of running a vert bulb horz, and visa-versa.
Shorting of life or Poof (arc tube could rupture)
it can burn hotter than it should resulting in castrotic failure.. (again read 2 lines above)

I am curious of the mfg process that allows the bulb to be run in a specific position.
Theres a bit of reading if u want to know that.(also some is propriety) and some NDA's sorry thats as far as i can go.. due to NDA
its not physical parts that we can see that are different.. (within reason)
ITS PHYSICS and CHEMISTRY thats the players..

the arc tube (lamp) looks the same hor or vertical but there is internal differences..
ALSO YOU VOID YOUR WARRANTY WHEN YOU BURN OUT OF POSISTION>>
(there is TELLS on the Lamp when burnt wrong way. (can even tell if its ever been inserted into a base)

FOLLOW ALL INSTRUCTIONS ON LAMPS>>

the earths magnetic field and the lamps own generated one makes it go the way it needs..

 

[simba]

since grams spilled some of it. i can go into that..
the element he speaks is the Kicker for orientation..

this is not the way in mh or cmh but proves the theory..about magna feilds and gravity..

Thomson found that the rays did indeed bend under the influence of an electric field, in a direction indicating a negative charge.
(he was using it to pull it down)

 

[gramsci.antonio]

Thomson found that the rays did indeed bend under the influence of an electric field, in a direction indicating a negative charge.
(he was using it to pull it down)

Yeah that's what he found, but what interest us is that keeping the eletric field costant, and MOVING the magnetic field (or moving the lamp in the magnetic field, is the same) we'll see a phase shift in the photons emitted by excited electrons.


He was playing with the eletric field, we play with the magnetic one, but very few things changes....

 

[gramsci.antonio]

First of all, i want to tell you that i'm not 100% of understanding everything you're saying... Being a foreigner for me is quite difficult to keep up with such a tech. discussion... so if some of my answers look odds just point out to me

I am curious of the mfg process that allows the bulb to be run in a specific position.
Theres a bit of reading if u want to know that.(also some is propriety) and some NDA's sorry thats as far as i can go.. due to NDA
its not physical parts that we can see that are different.. (within reason)
ITS PHYSICS and CHEMISTRY thats the players..

Basically is that you can build such a device using a magnetic invariant or an eletric invariant field.

MIF are better, since the electron flow varies accordingly to the magnetic field, so it's indipendent from position, but it requires higher tech. capabilities, and has some drawbacks.

EIF, like in the CMH, depends on the orientation, and has the drawback that in small places of earth the orientation is switched (Hor became ver, and viceversa), but it's easier to build and MAYBE it's need for CMH design, but i dunno. Their principal pros, is that since the eletric field is the invariant, the device is quite more fault tolerant to fluctuation of the eletric source, that at such high voltage became relevant.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

OK, I think that I may just be spot-on with my theory on this thing.

I do not think that Philips has different arc tube set-ups for the differing orientations. I found the patent application that explains the whole thing.
Search for: US Patent 6844676 - Ceramic HID lamp with special frame wire for stabilizing the arc

From what I can gather, the patented arc tube frame addresses the arc bending problem to a point of eliminating or minimizing the problem in bulbs from 150w to 1000w.

I am pretty certain that the reduction of lifespan numbers for certain models is taking into account the bulbs that only get the arc bending problem "minimized", while other bulbs are seeing the full benefit of the new tube frame.

The mfg even mentions in the patent literature about the prohibitive costs of mfg'ing separate type of bulbs just for the horizontal position.

Unless some other evidence surfaces, it is pretty clear that even though there may be a physical paint or liner, and different part numbers/specs, the horz and vert bulbs have the very same apparatus, and are virtually the same animal.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

I think you need to read the patent, Simba.

This from the patent Invention Summary:

Another object of the invention is to provide ceramic metal halide lamps of the
Philips MasterColor.RTM.series that display excellent initial color
consistency, superb stability over life (lumen maintenance >80%, color
temperature shift <200 K at 10,000 hrs), high luminous efficacy of
>90 lumens/watt, high color rendering index of >90, a lifetime of
about 20,000 hours, and power ranges of about 150 W to about 1000 W, and
in which the arc bending problem is eliminated or at least minimized,
regardless of the orientation of the lamp in the fixture and regardless of
the relative position of the frame wire to the arc tube.

 

[knna]

I dont think its a good idea to use lamps on a non specified way. It they are rated to work HOR or VERT, use them that way. A manufacturer dont state to use a bulb on a limited way without a reason.

I suspect there are some differences between bulbs comercialized in Europe and in North America. I dont know why, but ive found similar bulbs are V or H rated for US while rated U (universal) in Europe.

Anyway, always follow manufacturers instructions, except it you know for sure its due to legal regulations of a country. But i dont believe this is the case.

 

[Bass Akwards]

"Doobie UV Doo, Da Doobie UV"

"Doobie UV Doo, Da Doobie UV"

The answer to the UV question is "Yes".

But, under what conditions can we make use of it?

First, here's the research:

It was conducted in Holland, where it's legal to do this work.

Photochemistry and Photobiology
Volume 46 Issue 2 Page 201-206, August 1987
To cite this article: John Lydon, Alan H. Teramura, C. Benjamin Coffman (1987) UV-B RADIATION EFFECTS ON PHOTOSYNTHESIS, GROWTH and CANNABINOID PRODUCTION OF TWO Cannabis sativa CHEMOTYPES
Photochemistry and Photobiology 46 (2) , 201–206 doi:10.1111/j.1751-1097.1987.tb04757.x

"The effects of UV-B radiation on photosynthesis, growth and cannabinoid production of two greenhouse-grown C. sativa chemotypes (drug and fiber) were assessed. Terminal meristems of vegetative and reproductive tissues were irradiated for 40 days at a daily dose of 0, 6.7 or 13.4 kJ m-2 biologically effective UV-B radiation. Infrared gas analysis was used to measure the physiological response of mature leaves, whereas gas-liquid chromatography was used to determine the concentration of cannabinoids in leaf and floral tissue."

"There were no significant physiological or morphological differences among UV-B treatments in either drug- or fiber-type plants. The concentration of Delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol (Delta 9-THC), but not of other cannabinoids, in both leaf and floral tissues increased with UV-B dose in drug-type plants. None of the cannabinoids in fiber-type plants were affected by UV-B radiation."

"The increased levels of Delta 9-THC in leaves after irradiation may account for the physiological and morphological tolerance to UV-B radiation in the drug-type plants. However, fiber plants showed no comparable change in the level of cannabidiol (a cannabinoid with UV-B absorptive characteristics similar to Delta 9 THC). Thus the contribution of cannabinoids as selective UV-B filters in C. sativa is equivocal."

So, if CMH bulbs are available in both low and high UV models, can the high UV bulbs be used safely? If an enclosure is needed to be safe from the posibility of an exploding bulb, how much of the available UV is lost?

Didn't see any UV info on the CMH site that Simba's been posting.

In this neck of the woods, enclosed hoods are fairly rare. Both 1000K Halides and HPS lights are usually running bare under a reflector. Is this just lazy, cheap & lazy, or cheap, lazy, & foolish? ( Have almost no HID experience. We've always grown outdoors, but sprout under floros. )

If clones are started indoors under a CMH with high UV, and then planted outdoors in a lower UV area, will the plant make an adjustment to compensate for the UV, and will it stay "compensated" until the end of the growing season? ( Probably not, but we can hope. )