can't hold off any longer....long standing defficency..

[bp420]

alright...quick background.

i have 1 ICE, 2 AK48's and a bag seed @ around 7th week of reveg in a 100lt recirculating DWC setup on GH 3 part nutes(no idea how much..just been maintaining PPM at 500'ish using mostly micro and bloom lately) and cannazym (450ml over 3 or so weeks) with rain water (10ppm - used tap water last time around with a 70ppm 8.4ph), with a 400w HPS around 36 inches away.
i have been keeping my ppms at 400-500 mostly over the past 3 weeks, cranked it up to 600 last week to see if that would make any changes to my rising PH or defficencies. my PPM's don't change that much..usually stable for 4 days, then drops about 50 points. seems to have no direction...goes up slightly..down a little..up a little...drops like a stone...then back up.
PH been going up to 6.1 - 6.2 (from 5.2) everyday for the past 5 weeks and i kept lowering it slightly back to 5.5 just about everyday.
i've left it alone for a week now, and it peaked to 6.3 in the first day then dropped back slowly to 5.9 and now 5.7 after 5 days(prolly go back to 5.9 tomorrow if history tells me anything).
anyways...i think thats enough details..


i had the same defficency last time,not as bad this time tho. since last time i changed to a recirc DWC system(as opposed to not recirc last time)
its really hard to get pics, because my camera sucks. so i'm going to write and then i'll go see if i can get some pics..so maybe there will be some good pics.

the first symptom i have is brown spots..like pin dots that occur between the viens mostly, currently on one plant they seem to be on both old and new'ish growth, they start at the leaf tips (not right on the tips, but the furthest extremeties of the leaf) and slowly work there way back covering the whole leaf as the leaf gets older. as the leaf gets older it dries out and gets very crispy.
sometimes the older leaves will eventually get a yellowish/rust color towards the ends inbetween the brown dots(by that point the brown dots aren't very small and cover most of the leaf ends/middle) and the leaf will fall off easily.
the bag seed plant is the worst offender with the brown spots. and one of the ak's has a slight problem with this..however it has more then just one problem.

which leads me to the second symptom. on the ak i was just refering to i have rust colored spot on the viens. very rarely do the rust spots form inbetween the viens - seems to stick mostly to older type growth. however because this ak doesn't really have any growth - its all over it.

the ice and the second ak48, have very slight orange discolorations on the older leaves but nothing like they did in my last grow and nothing like the first AK48.

the second ak48 is growing quite well, not very fast, but it is atleast growing unlike its sister ak48. the older growth is a very nice green color(however with slight rust spots dulling the greeness) the growing tips seem to be a fairly pale green color - its not really inbetween the viens, just all over the new growth and as the leaves unfold and spread out it darkens to the nice green color we all love, but as it ages yeah..slightly rusty, you have to look fairly close to acctually see the orange discoloration...unlike its sister which stands out like dogs balls.

my ice plant is the same as the second AK48, slight rust discoloration on the viens of older leaves. however the ice plants has been getting fairly pale lately inbetween the viens.


sorry i'm rambling..just trying to be descriptive.
in a nut shell..
bagseed - brown pin dots starting inbetween viens on newer growth, starts in the middle of the leaf, as leaf ages it progressively gets worse from the ends upwards.

AK48#1 - brown pin dots as before, combined with all age growth getting rust/orange blotches on the viens. older growth affected more.

ICE - rust discoloration on older growth, reasonably faint. newer growth is a slightly lighter green color inbetween viens. not really growing much or stretching. node spacing very tight (like...a new node every 1 cm).

AK48#2 - rust discoloration on older growth, reasonably faint. grow tips very pale until leaf opens. growing ok other then that.


um...i think i covered everything..sorry if i rambled..or miss spelled shit, i'm a terrible speller and its really cold in my computer room..so i'm shivering which makes it hard to type.

pics are coming....

 

[4iiii'z]

mg ?

 

[sproutco]

Rust colored spots on old growth sounds like an excess of something rather than a deficiency. Micronutrients get toxic at low ph levels. Raising calcium levels will help with excess micros and act as a cure-all . I would keep my ph at 6. This ph is good with any growing such as hydro, soilless, outdoors, etc... Some growers buffer the water with potassium carbonate (bicarbonate ?), for example, to avoid wild ph swings. (I don't have specific knowledge about this) If you think you do have a deficiency, check your nutrients you are using to see if they contain: nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, sulfur, calcium, magnesium, iron, manganese, boron, zinc, copper, molybdenum, and chlorine. Your 400 watt should be about 1 foot away from the plants instead of 3 feet. Maybe somebody else can give you some insight.

 

[bp420]

sorry...that would be one of those miss spelled things i mentioned, its not 36 inches is about 20 give or take (closest plant in prolly 14, furthest 20)

i'm using GH 3 part nutes, so i would imagine it has most, if not all the things you mentioned.


i uploaded some photos to my gallery. one of things i did notice as i was taking pictures is the bag seed plant (photo prefix- bs**.jpg) has what i belive to be overfert issues. not doubt as a reasult of uping my ppms to 600 (currently at 550 this morning)
if the burning on the ends of the leaves are infact overfert - bear in mind that even with out the obvious burning to tips - it has the brown dots anyways. so either the brown dots are just a much milder form or overfert, or a different problem all together (i have brown dots wether its 100ppm, or 1200ppm)

ironicly, as i stated before i've previously grown these plants out. the first time i grew them i also had a B-52 in the mix. and it was perfect - not a single symptom unlike the other plants. it was great untill it hermied in the last 3 weeks .

 

[sproutco]

If your sure your nutrient solution contains everything, I would adjust my ph to 6 for sometime instead of 5.5 and see what happens.

 

[Guest]

On top of PH I would take the Water rez. temperature. I think you may be running warm. Also how are your roots, are they healthy/ big enough to handle the nutes needed for plant growth. Just a couple of random thoughts

 

[bp420]

oh...yeah forgot that. res temp is 18c (which is something 63 or 64 F i think) got an aquarium heater in it. i put that in about 3 weeks ago as my water temps were 10c (possibly less at night) hasn't made any diff really.

also, i am medium less. just a piece of pool noodle around the stem holding it in the lid.

i have had a whole heap of design issues from day one and i have slowly working thru them one by one in hopes of fixxing this problem that i have (brown spots, or rust spots, or stupid PH etc etc etc etc and etc!)
the only left on my list for this defficency is to change nutes(was thinking AN sensi 2 part) or whatever you guys recomend.
i have always thought that my problem may have been a calcium deff. but i don't really know what to use to fix that as i can't buy CALMAG in my area and i generally don't buy things online...so i dunno! i've tried foliar feeding dolomite lime a couple of times here and there but all it did was make my leaves white(it was a last resort thing..i didn't think it would work, but gave it a go anyways).

 

[sproutco]

If you think you have a calcium deficiency, then raising the ph would help. 1/4 teaspoon calcium nitrate in 1 gallon of water is about 70 parts per million calcium. Better...1/4 teaspoon gypsum in 1 gallon of water is also about 70 ppm ca. You can find calcium nitrate/gypsum at good garden centers because tomato growers are using it for blossom end rot.

 

[bp420]

my root mass is not great. something happened about 3 weeks after i reveg and i can't explain it at all.
i added some h2o2 (1ml/gal) because i was noticing alot of old root floating around so i figured it would help to break down all the dead roots and stuff.
problem was, it acctually killed my roots. never seen anything like it...each plants roots went really brown, and slimey in about 2 days. if you sqeezed them goo came out and they would just come away with your hand. this is also why they look so bad lately. especially the bag seed...it had heaps of roots, and when they died it really knocked the shit out of the plant..in the first week the total plant mass was prolly halved because i pulled all the dead leaves off.

this is also why they haven't really progress as well as they should, evident in ak48#1 as it was also the runt so its recovering very slow(and they've never really progressed to there full ability because of this deff or whatever)
that set them back about 2 weeks cause all the new roots they had formed inthe weeks after the chop, died. i've only started seeing positive growth again in the past week.

 

[bp420]

anyone else?
sorry..trying to be patient..but i really want some new "idea's" as to what it could be. i have exhusted all of mine except for new nutes and now some calcium nitrate.
so any ideas are welcome...

 

[sproutco]

For root damage you will want to use nitrate nitrogen instead of ammonia or urea nitrogen. You should investigate making your own nutrient solution instead of store bought so you can do this trick and others. Its not terribly hard to make a nutrient solution just a little math and will save you alot of money. Biggest thing in making your own nutrient solution will be the cost of a gram scale to measure. Change the ph to 6 for a while, like I suggested, and see what happens.

 

[bp420]

how should i use the calcium nitrate or gypsum...foliar feed or in the res?
and i guess, how much should i use?

i've let my PH sit for a bit over week at 5.8 (its been hovering between 5.84 and 5.72)
i haven't really notice any impovement at all.

the plants don't seem to be getting worse..but there not getting any better. it seems that they are growing just enough to cover the damage received by whatever deff i have...

what does it look like...


this is the bag seed, the damage in the middle area of the leaves is the damage i'm talking about...this is what alot of the fan leaves have, normally worse - but this is how it starts out on the new growth. the burnt tip is a reasult of me increasing my ppm upto 600 for a week(well..i would imagine it is, cause its never come out like that before unless i increase my ppm to fast).


and this is what the ak48 looks like...the difference between the damage on the bagseed and the ak48 is the BS mostly has brown spots, with very little rust spots, and the ak48 has the reverse, more rust then brown.

 

[sproutco]

If calcium is low, add some gypsum at 70 ppm calcium. To do this, add 1/4 teaspoon powdered gypsum per gallon of water into the rez. You may want to pre disolve the gypsum in warm water before adding because it has a low solubility. Calcium is neat in that it serves as a buffer within the plant in case you have too many micronutrients or whatever. It is a "safener". You will not ever see a calcium excess but may cause a deficiency of other elements probably the first being magnesium. Keep an eye out for that. You need to review your nutrient solution to make sure you are not adding too little or too much of everything that should be included. When you raise your ppm's to increase nitrogen unfortunately you also raise everything else in the nutrient solution like micronutrients. This is because the nutrients are store bought and fixed. I think you should consider making your own nutrient solutions so you will have better control of what is going. You could for example raise nitrogen to increase growth without raising micronutrients. I promise its easy. If you can give me your nutrient solution in ppm of each element, like for example 200 ppm nitrogen, I can read it and give you some feedback on what might be wrong. I cannot solve a nutrient solution problem by looking at total ppm used other than saying that might be too strong, etc...

 

[bp420]

okay...

i'm using general hydroponics 3 part flora series nutrients...

GH Bloom:
Grams per mL(liquid) = 1.1489411715039

Nitrate N (no3) = 0
Ammoncial N (NH4) = 0
Urea N (NH2) = 0

Phosphourous(P2O5) = 5
Potassium(K2O) = 4
Magnesium(Mg) = 1.5
Sulfur(S) = 1

[email protected] 1mL/US gal = 40ppm.

GH Grow:
Grams per mL(liquid) = 1.1124041945031

Nitrate N (no3) = 1.75
Ammoncial N (NH4) = 0.25
Urea N (NH2) = 0

Phosphourous(P2O5) = 1
Potassium(K2O) = 6
Magnesium(Mg) = 0.5
Sulfur(S) = 0

[email protected] 1mL/US gal = 55.2ppm.

GH Micro:
Grams per mL(liquid) = 1.2269129287598

Nitrate N (no3) = 4.7
Ammoncial N (NH4) = 0.3
Urea N (NH2) = 0

Phosphourous(P2O5) = 0
Potassium(K2O) = 1
Magnesium(Mg) = 0
Sulfur(S) = 0
Calcium(Ca) = 5
Iron(Fe) = 0.1
Maganese(Mn) = 0.05
Molybdenum(Mo) = 0.0008
Cobalt(Co) = 0.0005

[email protected] 1mL/US gal = 86.8ppm.

the mixing ratios as per GH website and the bottles are veg 3part(grow)-2part(mirco)-1part(bloom) (1 part = 5ml/ per gal)
and for flowering 1-2-3

now on my previous i tried following the 321 ratios at the various stages of growth (and i tried them at 1/4 strength, 1/2, and full strength whilst still sticky to the 321 ratio) but i always had this problem with my plants - and i had it a hell of alot worse.
what i have done on this grow is change to my water to rain water(as opposed to tap water) and i tried to follow the lucas formula which removes the Grow potion of the 3 part system and relies on the Micro and the bloom in a 1:2 ratio (i may have that back to front, it could be 2 parts micro to 1 part bloom....i can't remember right now)
and them i have tried to keep my PPM at a steady rate each week..for example
if i want my ppm to be around the 500ppm mark, i will mixx the bloom and micro in a 1:2 ratio untill i reach 500ppm. then at the end of the week after my PPM has dropped i will add more bloom and micro in a 1:2 ratio untill it reaches 500ppm or slightly above.
so, if i start at 500ppm the following week i'3m down to 450ppm i will add a little more BandM in a 1:2 ratio to bring it back to say..510ppm, the following week after it has dropped again to say 470ppm i will add a a little more BandM to bring it to 530ppm or so.

so far it has been working much better then my last grow as far as the ICE plant and one of the AK48's.
however, the other AK48 and the Bag seed have responed slightly compared to my last grow, but they are no where near perfect, and they are no where near the condition of the ice and the other ak48.

i am interested to find out about mixing my own nutes and it was something i was contemplating (it was either that or i was going to start using a different brand of premixxed nutes all together)

so what would be your suggestion?

(i'm sorry about any spelling mistakes..i typed this really fast as i am on my way out the door...but i really wanna know what your suggestion is as far as mixing my own nutes..)

 

[sproutco]

When you listed micro you did not list copper, boron, and zinc. I guess all that is in % of the element?

I think there may be too much micro. This is just a guess. You could reduce micro and add calcium and nitrogen if you need it using calcium nitrate. That is probably what they used and put in that part of the formula.

Adjust your fertilizer + water to ph 6. If ph is low you will get excessive uptake of micronutrients. This is the first step. See if the ph change doesn't help things before reducing micros.

Calibrate your ph meter. I can't believe your tap water is over 8 ph.

I am sure in high school you were forced to do a research paper. Go to your public library and get books on hydroponics. You may have to go to the main branch rather than a smaller branch. Howard Resh is one guy that has some books that show you how to mix your own. It's easy. (Learning this will help you understand your store bought nutrient series better also.) You will need a gram scale, calculator, the individual micronutrients (try hydro-gardens to get them; get there catalog) chelated if possible, and the major elements. Some major elements used like calcium from calcium nitrate you may be able to find around town to avoid paying shipping cost on a large bag.

I am going to start a thread on how to do fertilizer calculations for mixing your own nutrient solutions. I just don't have the strength to do it properly right now.

 

[bp420]

cool, i await your thread

it doesn't list anything for copper boron, or zinc on the micro bottle (or any of them)

i will try what you suggested, and if that don't work i'll give mixing my own a go.
thanks for you help/.