Cannot figure this one out....paging defiency experts!(with pics)

[Lucy Diamond]

I am really stumped here.

I have had this issue for the last few harvests.I am growing a variety of strains.The weird thing is,it only seems to affect a plant here and there...not all of them.All the plants look nice and green going from the veg room to the bloom room.Then,within the first flower week,some of the plants start to exhibit yellowing of some leafs...some of it shows at the top of the plant,some part way down.They are under 600 watt HPS lights air cooled lights.At first,I suspected light burn...but I have tried raising the lights up close to 3 feet above the tops,and it still happens.Plus,if it was light burn,why would'nt all the plants show light burn issues?Many of them still look nice and green,so I have pretty much ruled light burn out.

I used the organic Advanced line for the last few crops,then decided to switch to Botanicare's PBP this time,to see if the issue resolved...it hasn't,and in fact,more plants and more strains seem to be affected than last time....so I'm about ready to pull out my hair!

They were fed a combo of 75 % bloom nutes(7 ml/gal),25 % grow nutes(3 ml/gal) for their week one feeding in flower.With additional Cal-mag at 2.5 mls. per gallon.Along with Bud Blood,Sweet and Gro-zyme at the recommended rates.PH of 6.4-6.5,grown in Pro-Mix with lime supplementation.

I spent a lot of time searching forums like these for help...thought perhaps I was dealing with a phosphorus defiency..tried supplementing a bit extra of phosphorus to a few of the affected plants,but it fixed nothing.

This is really reducing the yields on these ladies and I am going nuts trying to figure out what the heck the issue is.

I have attached a couple of pics..the first two show what the affected plants look like by week 3 of flower,the last few show the early stages after approx. 1 week in flower.

I have some of AN's Revive,and was considering a foliar treatment,but will wait for some replies before deciding.

Any feedback is majorly appreciated!

 

[HeadyPete]

Overfeeding big time. Too much stuff for week one of bloom.

Flush those with plain water, ph'd to bring your runoff to 6.3

Careful with the blood bud, it is crazy high in NPK #s.....never trust directions on bottles of ferts. Always use half what they recommend till you see how your plants like it.

Basically you have been roped into AN's expensive marketing trap. AN is too expensive and they recommend too much shit for growing.

Try halving your doses for a few weeks, then you can increase as the plant kicks into high gear.

Are your leaves yellowing but the veins are staying green? This is different from your yellowing tips from overfeed. MAg def leaves fade evenly, but the veins stay green. Hard to tell with the hps light in the pix. You may have a mag def. A maintenance dose of CalMag is 5ml/gal, you are at half that. Did you test runoff ph? Runoff needs to be 6.3ish. Your ph may actually be low, causing lockout. What kind of tester do you use?

 

[DIGITALHIPPY]

i like how headypete sliped in some trash talk on AN.
i dont think its oerfeeding atall. the tips would be burnt.
it looks like a mag/cal/ def,... u said 2.5ml/ gal?? i use 10ml-15ml gal. sometimes.
but lable says atleats 5ml/gal so try adding some cal-mag and water only mix at 8ml/gal to comppinsate for the def.

nice trash talk heady, real mature. shows class.

 

[420guy]

calcium defieciency looks like little brown "burn" spots on the leaves...magnesium defieciency yellows from the outer leaf edge inwards while the center stays green...the pictures don't look like either to me...if it were me, i would do as HeadyPete suggested flush with ph'd water and start over with a lower e.c.
stay safe and good luck

 

[sirgrassalot]

I also think they may be overfed. They are yellowing from the tips back on most leaves but from the middle of the plant upwards (the latter is why I think they're overfed & not Nitro deficient) Also possibly a magnesium issue.

Labels for the most part are measured with a 1000w in mind though some 600 are up there. You've added a lot of stuff.

I would spray one with Epsom salt another with Nitrogen & Epsom salt. Mild solutions. Have a third in trouble flush with 25% nutrients IMHO PBP bloom & Fish only or similar. You'll know within two days. Than go easy from there on.

 

[whatsthatsmell]

Your overfeeding your plants. What is your current feeding schedule during flower, do you feed, feed, feed, feed, feed, feed, feed, etc, or do you feed, feed, water, feed, feed, water....as an example. Keep in mind that for the first week of flower you want to give your plant grow nutes and then during the second week of flower start the transitional mix where you start to introduce the bloom nutes, then during the 3rd week you are giving the plant full bloom nutes (this is when i would normally transplant to a larger pot if the plant needed to).

One of the things that worked for me in understand what the plant was taking up during the flower stage is to understand what the plant was taking up and what dosages were needed. To do this, i would simply add the nutes in one at a time and take a TDS reading, this would help me understand what ppms were what as they were added and i can adjust them as needed during different stages. This helps me understand what potential there is for nute def and such. Since i got that understanding, i havent had a nute def problem.

Hope that helps ya some.

 

[Guest]

It would have been really handy to know what they ate in veg....

But a few comments on specific defs...

Mg....not.... I use problend and find clearly with their use of only .5% magnesium that you get Mg defs if you dont supplement Mg... In this case you use dolomite, cal mag and sweet.... these sources would be more than enough.... not Mg....

Sulfur...not.... sweet contains lots of S.... but normally we dont see S unless its grown in an inert medium..... plenty of S in promix..... Not S....

Iron....wrong leaf pattern.... Fe would show dark green tips and light interiors....this is a manufacturing issue.... the reason the tips are green and interiors not is that at some point when the leaf is produced it runs short of iron and the chlorosis results.... not Fe....


A little shit talk on AN....I will make a stronger statement.....criminals....

Bud Blood is a perfect example.... they want more than 200 dollars for a pound of common chemicals....incredible nerve....
Its derived from Potassium Phosphate, Potassium Carbonate, Potassium Phosphate, and Magnesium Phosphate....

A very similar product Kool Bloom can be purchased for less than 10% of Bud Blood....

can I say it any louder .....CRIMINALS!!!!

I found some of their advertising of this product outragous.... comments like saving your hard earned money.... godlike control of flowering......

PaLease......

Rant over....


It would be my suggestion to get rid of everything except Problend and calmag.....

Its funny some of the people who know the most about plant nutrition use the fewest ferts and other stuff.....


Imagine that....


With what you have on hand here is the base formula you should use in flower...


and PBPBloom 15, plus 5 cal mag (GrowGreen's formula) it resembles the grow formula of FloraNova @8ml, as well as GH's 15Grow, 10Micro, 5 bloom formulations, the most copied recipe Ive found. It seems competition only copied GH's veg formula for the most part..

 

[Guest]

Lucas info.....

Lucas info.....

Now for some heavy math based discussion of some popular nutrients

the following specs are in N-P-K-Mg format
canna aqua a plus b vega 6-3-8-1
Canna aqua a plus b flores 4-4-11-1.2
Canna Coco a plus b flores 5-5-3-1
Flora Nova Bloom 4-8-7-2
Flora Nova Grow 7-4-10-1.5
Flora Micro 5-0-1
Flora Bloom 0-5-4-1.5

from the above data, using pH's spreadsheet, http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/premixppm3b.zip
with weights checked, the following dosages produced the net elemental values for the following GH, Canna, and PBP formulas.. I strongly encourage folks to input the net weight of their nutrient bottles when using pH's premix spreadsheet. Thick products like FloraNova, especially benefit from this data, because it raises the net NPKMG calculations significantly.

note the Canna Coco Bloom recipe profile, it is about a 33% dilution of the 8ml GH Micro, plus 16 ml per gallon of GH Bloom formula.. (but with more Nitrogen).. Maybe medium based nutes are intentionally weak, so they accumulate in the pot?

8ml GH Micro 16 ml GH Bloom, is my guru pH's baseline bloom formula (pH is a person) derived from the Mel Frank targets, which suggest a 100-100-200-60 goal for NPKMG values in bloom Both GH Flora series nutes and the Flora Nova series, achieve Mel Franks targets without additives. Here is a link to Mel's specs http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htm
pH's "Lucas Formula" values for 8ml micro, 16ml bloom
n 130
p 106
k 183
Mg 73

8 Flora Nova grow. Flora Nova is the one bottle solution to nutrients, note this mix is almost identical to Canna Aqua Vega, and GrowGreen's Nute Recipe
n 217
p 54
k 257
Mg 46

8 fnBloom
n 124
p 108
k 180
Mg 62

GH's baseline Flora Series, the 3 bottles, green purple and red, (different from Flora Nova series) veg formula
GH 15grow, 10micro, 5bloom
211
46
263
40

and GH 3 part bloom formula
GH 5grow, 10micro, 15bloom
159
92
219
66


canna coco 5.7a plus 5.7b (this is their baseline 3ml per liter formula), the highest dosage they recommend is 14ml/gal of canna coco A plus 14 of B). This mix (5.7ml/gal) is less than 1/3 strength of GH Flora Nova Bloom @8ml per gallon on the P, K and Mg..
N 87
P 30
K 43
Mg 17


canna coco 8/a and 8/b
121
42
60
24

Here is canna coco's strongest bloom mix, before the pk14 boost. it resembles the GH FloraNovaGrow recipe in its Nitrogen level
canna coco 14/a and 14/b
212
74
106
42

Here we see Canna Coco hitting hard with P and K
canna coco 14/a and 14/b plus 6ml pk13-14

212
177
317
42

pk 13-14 alone
0
103
212

here is Canna Aqua Vega at mfg rec of 3ml per litre each of A and B (very similar to GH's veg mix)
208
45
230
35

and here is Canna Aqua Flores at 3ml/litre each of A and B (it does not resemble GH bloom recipes, but is slightly similar to 15ml PBPBloom plus 5ml Cal Mag)
138
60
316
42

Here is PureBlendPro Bloom @ 15ml/gal
129
45
214
26

and PBPBloom 15, plus 5 cal mag (GrowGreen's formula) it resembles the grow formula of FloraNova @8ml, as well as GH's 15Grow, 10Micro, 5 bloom formulations, the most copied recipe Ive found. It seems competition only copied GH's veg formula for the most part..
Note also that GrowGreen has contributed a total nutes per crop spec, of 15ml per 40 gallons, or 20 ounces of PBPBloom per 1k crop.. a very interesting spec, resulting in about 5000 total ppm of N per croplife..
161
45
214
45

I dont know why Canna and PBP use such lower P and Mg levels than GH, nor do Canna and PBP hit Mel Franks 100-100-200-60 targets the way GH does. Yet folks with Canna and PBP produce excellent results, just like folks with GH do.

There does seem to be a difference in the design of Canna Aqua compared to Canna Coco, and PBP is similar to Canna Coco.. which leads me to think that DWC nute levels can be much higher than medium based nutes that expect accumulation to occur in the medium..

Bear in mind that when looking at Canna Aqua Flores, the K level is rather high, and this inhibits uptake of Mg, which is already a bit low imho.. I have heard repeatedly that Canna Aqua, AND Canna Coco produce Mg deficiency if not supplemented with Epsom at the rate of 1/4tsp per gallon...

I used to recommend PBP be supplemented with Epsom also, but Cal Mag is a better option, as it also adds N

I hope this thread helps to develop an archive of effective nutrient mixes. I can add analysis of other products and combinations if people want to know their profiles and are not spreadsheet savvy.

To do that, I need guaranteed analysis info from the label of the products being used, as well as the net weight of the bottled products.

for those not familiar with the origin of the "Lucas Formula", it was developed by pH in his Ebb/Flow system. I adopted his recipe for DWC, after learning about bubblers from Highgrade. I assumed that DWC and Ebb Flow could be fed at the same nutrient strength and ratios. It worked. I dont know why Canna and Botanicare (makers of Pure Blend) use such lower P and Mg levels.. Even if they are designed for medium, does not Ebb Flow have similar nute accumulations as medium based grows? Maybe not. Even though Ebb Flow does concentrate nutes in the rox between irrigations, they may be flushed out each time the flood comes, unlike the case with Canna Coco, or PBP in soilless mixes like Sunshine..

But to confound that possibility, here comes GrowGreen in ebb flow, using PBP, and its low P and Mg levels..

Its still a mystery to me why GrowGreen gets such good results from such low nute concentrations, whereas folks like ceteris paribus, also in ebb flow, get similar good results as GG, but using the Lucas Formula, with its higher P and Mg levels..

At this stage of my learning, out of all the possible systems and nutrients, Im inclined to recommend Ebb Flow with Flora Nova nutrients. I remain loyal to GH because of the simplicity of using no additives, and now also because the Nova series has everything in just one bottle.

The one reason to consider PBP in my opinion, is that folks think of it as "organic". To understand more of the details comprising the use of the term organic, check out this article on the GH website:
http://www.google.com/search?q=cach...icHydroponicArticle.pdf=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2

"Many attempts have been made to create the perfect organic-
hydroponic nutrient, but so far nothing matches the purified
mineral salts used in formulating hydroponic nutrient solutions.
We note that the European Economic Community (EEC) has
established the category of "mineral organic" for foods grown with
the required mineral nutrients to supplement an organic base of
nitrogen. We previously touched on the fact that United States
agricultural regulations are currently set and applied at the state
level but practically all states prohibit the use of refined ingredients
to cultivate “organic" crops; only mined minerals can be used.
Surprisingly, this precludes organic growers from using
pharmaceutical or food grade ingredients to formulate fertilizers."

I hope others will help me learn more about the reasons why non GH nutes are so low in P and Mg..

 

[MynameStitch]

I have seen this before...... looks like it has too much potassium.... seen a thread like that on overgrow back in the day, the dude stopped using his high potassium nutrient and the plant recovered......

Very nice post pepe, took me a while to read through that, wow!

 

[HeadyPete]

Sorry DigiHippy, you work for AN? You calling me out? I'm helping someone here, you strolled in to specifically take me on, and to give an incorrect guess of an opinion as an afterthought. So obvious. Shame you were taken by AN for a fool and paid too much.

I stand by what I said - overpriced, over marketed, over hyped crap. Pay $1000 for your nutes, i'll pay $100 and my weed will be just as good as yours, just a tenth the cost.

Your turn.....go ahead and defend them. Tell me why I should pay 10X to cover their double full colour ads in the weed mags?

btw, your off topic attack on me would be considered flaming by some around here. Real mature, shows class.

 

[Lucy Diamond]

myname stitch....I think you may have nailed it.Now that I think of it,I have had this issue in a handful of plants(some strains more susceptible than others)ever since I started using the Bud Blood,which is very high in K.Well,damage has been done yet again,but at least I have something to work with next run.I will not use the Bud Blodd and see if the issue resolves....my gut tells me this very well could be it.

Thanks!

 

[MynameStitch]

Please let me know an update on this alright

 

[DirtDoctor]

so yeah HeadyPete - maybe in the middle of your rabid AN hatred, you forgot to read the original post?????

He's growing with PBP. The only AN product he listed is BudBlood (a strong PK booster). How is that "being roped into AN's expensive marketing trap"?

/shrug - whatever.

Oh, and Pepe - nice cut & paste job. - that came right out of this thread by Lucas - http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=21119 next time, maybe just post a link.

 

[whatsthatsmell]

Oh, and Pepe - nice cut & paste job. - that came right out of this thread by Lucas - http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=21119 next time, maybe just post a link.

I didnt want to be too cruel, but yeah its there and several other places on the internet, i think that goes back to early 2000's, so it started almost 8 years ago i think and is just being updated to include the current popular nute mixes. There is also a program that is tied to that listing that will help with calculating when to feed and how much, and what is being used when, when to change res, etc, etc.... If nothing else, just simply give credit where credit is due, dont take someone elses work as your own, your gonna look like an idiot in the eyes of others, especially on here where people will call you on that........and quick...


Back on topic,
Need to get a pic of your root system and i'm pretty sure that we will be able to help you alot more when you do. There are several problems with that plant and they will spread to the others if you do not address these issues in a timely manor, especially in hydro.

Just my 2cents

 

[HeadyPete]

so yeah HeadyPete - maybe in the middle of your rabid AN hatred, you forgot to read the original post?????

He's growing with PBP. The only AN product he listed is BudBlood (a strong PK booster). How is that "being roped into AN's expensive marketing trap"?

/shrug - whatever.

Oh, and Pepe - nice cut & paste job. - that came right out of this thread by Lucas - http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=21119 next time, maybe just post a link.

Did YOU read the original post? Any posts? or did you seize on what you wanted to see just so you could go flaming?

I used the organic Advanced line for the last few crops,then decided to switch to Botanicare's PBP this time,to see if the issue resolved...it hasn't,and in fact,more plants and more strains seem to be affected than last time....so I'm about ready to pull out my hair!

Why don't you mind your own business? Was I talking to you? If you want to misrepresent me as rabid and hateful, show your evidence. I merely stated my opinion so that Lucy doesn't go back to AN and get hosed.

You come in here and attack two people and contribute nothing to Lucy's issues. What is your problem?

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

lol... as much as I hate to :wink: I have to agree with pete about the AN line... In my opinion that particular company has outdone most others on maximizing profit margins... separately packaging things which could be included in other products, and the like...

2 things... I don't like to run my pH much above 6 and not much below 5.8... and... More often than not, treating a nutrient deficiency (even a correctly diagnosed one), by adding more of the deficient nutrient, is not necessarily the answer... rather the answer lies in finding what other elements could be out of balance (locking out the deficient nutrient partially) and reduce the concentrations of those nutrients... The plant nutrition article in my sig line explains alot of the deficiencies which occur from such imbalances...

 

[sirgrassalot]

Why don't you mind your own business? Was I talking to you? If you want to misrepresent me as rabid and hateful, show your evidence. I merely stated my opinion so that Lucy doesn't go back to AN and get hosed.

I've been getting this too. I agree mind your own business I may use this as my sig on second thought they're stupid & get in the way of the postings.

 

[HeadyPete]

We'll be okay, H3ad...:wink:

 

[HeadyPete]

another fucking troll......

 

[DirtDoctor]

me a troll? not even. But peeps here like to bash on AN as a hobby, even in a thread like this one - where the person is using PBP, and has had the same problem in multiple grows with multiple nutrient lines.

as far as the OP's problem - I don't know, there just isn't enough info. Maybe it's too much of the Bud Blood, maybe it's adding lime to Pro-mix and then feeding at pH 6.3-6.5, maybe he's growing in a HydroHut....

He says it's only happening to a plant here and there, which makes it even more difficult to diagnose - unless it's that he mixes his lime into the soil poorly, causing the roots to encounter pockets of CaCO3 which leads to problems for some parts of some of the plants.

/shrug

As far as AN's marketing, why the fuck should I care? I run one of my coco tables using Grat3fulh3ads modified lucas with the AN 3-part because it's CMEMORYER then the GH, and works awesome.

/shrug