Can you grow with cold cathode computer lighting?

[ScrubNinja]

Hey thanks so much mate, really appreciate it. That was epic!

I will try to stop any reference to my gpw because I can see it will cause issues I just approach it from a micro perspective. Even a huge inefficiency is not gonna break anyone's pocket on a (bare with me) 35w grow. The way I refer to wattage, it's usually in the context of heat generated inside the cab, and actually delivered to the plants to grow. These are all that are important to me so what good is your gpw formula, ya know? I don't personally feel very interested in how much my power supply is wasting as heat outside the cab, or how much that wastage has cost me on my bill (although I appreciate getting educated about it of course). Hopefully I make sense, but if not, it isn't that important because like I say, you are correct, and I'm not trying to convince anyone. (I think)

I think your post just now has filled in a lot of gaps in my spectrum of understanding (a bit of lighting humour there). You seem to have confirmed what I was thinking about the spectrums. I will make up a proper spectrometer one day! Would you agree the single most important spectrum to measure would be above the pod with the lid off and all bulbs blazing, to gain an overall perspective? I promise I will try the tape on bulb trick on these babies! I'm just not so sure it would be a good idea in my particular case? I'm hoping to have the lights well surrounded by plant matter. Surely better that way than to rely on reflection? There's some mighty big gpws going down on the vertical forum and it seems pretty obvious why.

Well, cheers again friend. Truly honoured you could pop in.

 

[LadyLargely]

Well now, I wasn't insisting that GPW numbers are totally useless and irrelivant. They are a handy tool for comparing similar grow styles and its still a halfway-decent yardstick for measuring favorable yield rates.

You make perfect sense though. Getting all tied up in yield efficiency on a scale as small as this is a silly thing to do. At this level you are much more concerned with heat, compact nature, stealth, reliability, quality, etc. I'd say grams per cubic foot of space or something like that could possibly be more meaningful in this style of growing.

I think the foil reflectors could still help you. You are surrounding the bulbs with plants but not the whole thing About 50% of the tube's surface still faces away from the plants, even with a tunnel-of-light setup. The only way not to get this is to go bulb in the middle and plants round the sides:

Like such. You are doing sortof the opposite of that. Lights around the outside and plant(s) in the middle. So, the light coming out of the back-sides of your tubes have to leave the tube, travel some distance, bounce off the walls, and then travel some more distance back again just for it to get going in the right direction. With foil tape reflectors the photons coming off the back side never leave the tube. They are just re-directed straight back out the front side. This means the 50% of the 'back-side' photons have to travel a much shorter distance to get to the plants. Even if the foil tape reflector only saves those photons an inch or two of extra travel its worth it when using low-intensity forms of light such as this.

I've been working with floro tech for a looooooong time. Cold Cathode is another form of low-intensity discharge lighting and is subject to all the same pitfalls. Intensity, penetrating power is what these sorts of lamps are really lacking in. Every single millimeter of distance that you can remove from the length of travel from bulb-to-bud is well worth it.

Good luck with your foray into vertical rigs. I'll be sticking horizontal for now. I may very well have gone vertical a long time ago if I hadn't discovered overdriving. It allows me to get so much energy density with fewer tubes in a smaller space. I'll keep watching though, mebbe someday.

 

[Aerohead]

(Aero, the Vantec Nexus fan controller is rated to handle these fans, so I'm a little skeptical to remove the molexes here. I'd have to remove the molex connector on the controller and solder wires on, blah. So I will have to risk it unless you have any ideas?)

I can see your point since the molex is built in, it might make more sense to try to leave it alone. I'm not saying all of those connectors fail but the pins don't seem to grab the terminals tight enough on most of mine. Just make sure it plugs in tight. I would remove them anywhere it's easy to do though.

Oh! One thing though, I think you could give yourself a tiny bit more help reflectivity-wise. I know you used mylar tape on the inside of the tunnel but something like this...

Wow, LadyLargely, thanks for sharing that wealth of info. I would like to mention that the tape reflector is very inefficient when compared to a standard shop light reflector. I went through this back in the days of VHO fluoros over reef tanks when they started building reflectors into bulbs. Back in that day, someone did a very scientific study on one of my reef forums and a standard reflector beat the tape on the bulb by 30%
I also noticed they were noticably weaker in my light fixture and promptly replaced them for the untaped bulbs. I would only use the tape if you don't have a reflector, otherwise you are losing alot of light.

 

[ScrubNinja]

Okay awesome thanks both for your help. I gotta say though, LL, you seem to have missed an important aspect of my devious little plan here. I didn't discuss the grow style I plan much, so here goes.

When I originally thought of slanting the bulbs, it looked like this and I think there was something like a 40mm gap at the furthest point between the wall and the bulb (ie at the centre of the bulb)



But then I realised if I slant the bulbs at even more of an angle, that would increase the gap between wall and bulb to...*pauses to measure a bic lighter*....80mm, and also generally bring the lamps closer to the centre.



So I envisioned a very bushy plant, intermingled through and around the bulbs. I want branches in those gaps in other words. So if I taped them, I would lose the benefit. I mean, it *is* a vertical grow, more or less. It's using 360* of the bulb to shine directly (unreflected) onto the plant, at least it should be by maturation. The only way I can think that taping would help for my specific situation was if I just taped, say, 2 or 3 inches of each end, where it is too close to the wall to fit buds between. Or indeed, fully taped like you suggest in the earlier stages when the branches aren't in the gaps....but the tape would be a bitch to get off methinks.

 

[LadyLargely]

Wow, LadyLargely, thanks for sharing that wealth of info. I would like to mention that the tape reflector is very inefficient when compared to a standard shop light reflector. I went through this back in the days of VHO fluoros over reef tanks when they started building reflectors into bulbs. Back in that day, someone did a very scientific study on one of my reef forums and a standard reflector beat the tape on the bulb by 30%
I also noticed they were noticably weaker in my light fixture and promptly replaced them for the untaped bulbs. I would only use the tape if you don't have a reflector, otherwise you are losing alot of light.

Interesting. Sounds like they where comparing a foil-taped tube with no reflector to a non-taped tube with a reflector. I use foil tape and the standard shop-lamp reflector that came with the kit:



Tape alone is retarded. You can only safely cover about 33% of the bulbs surface area (with High Output or overdriven tubes, weaker ones can get away with more), beyond that and shit starts getting too hot. That's not enough coverage to work well on its own, should have mentioned that!

The foil tape doesn't really do shit for upping the quantity of light delivered where you want it. What its good for is upping the crappy penetration rate of floros. It does a good job of concentrating the photons and making them more intense. If you where to actually measure the output in lumens or lux with a light meter or something, I doubt you would measure a difference. But put your hand under them and you can feel that unmistakable tingle of strong light penetration, just like you do under HIDs.

ScrubNinja:

Ohhhh, I get it now! Because the surface temps of the tubes are so low you're just gonna grow the plant through your crazy light-tube-spiral. Some of it on the inside and some of it between the tubes and the outer walls. Yea, ok, no need for tape in your situation, I'm a big tard.

This fellow however:

Should definitely be looking into the tape trick. He talked about taping up the walls but applying it straight to the tubes would save him an inch of photon travel out the back sides of 'em.

 

[ScrubNinja]

Phew, thought I was going crazy..er..crazier.

I agree it sounds well worth a try for apple's cab there. I think theoretically, that I would even apply the tape, but then rotate the tubes as it were, so the light is being beamed down on an angle, as against straight out (if that idea hasn't been covered already).

I'll try to do a foil/tape side by side and get a good photo this weekend, for the benefit of the gang. Only thing is, all i have is that crappy mylar tape which needs a few layers to block light completely. So I will layer it up and see what I can do.

I think for the sake of ease, I will try to get it all working on this crappy 10A PSU, then invest in a real one when I know the 'pod functions as a whole. Current thinking is to remove the blower exhaust fan and just stick ducting on which runs to a westaflex 125mm mixed flow fan (about the closest we can get to an S&P in this god forsaken land).



Keep it cold, folks! (...or hot, inefficient, and only appealing to star trek fans, as the case may be!!)

Edit: all this talking of tape made me remember my cooltube idea (placing all the bulbs around the inner circumference of a 100mm perspex tube. Was never gonna work, BUT with foil tape, not much light would be lost to the central cavity inside the tube of bulbs. I'm not sure if this whole paragraph makes any sense, lol. But it works in my head.

 

[apples]

I think I'm gonna keep it pretty basic for the first run to see how she does. Then maybe I'll get all crazy with reflectors and shit.

I might even just use these 12 lights...but then again, I still have 8 lights and the back wall.

Small update. I cut my passive intake to 2"x12" and cut a square out for my 120mm fan. Is that sufficent? I don't know the cfm rating but its a pretty good fan. Also drilled holes for all the wires.

I think I'll use culk to seal it all up and put some kind of gasket on the front door so it seals up nice.

To do list:
Wire everything up
Attach door with hinges
Seal everything
Reflective tape
Something else I can't remember cuz I'm stoned.

Back side.

Front side.

I just realized this thing would fit into my hamper perfectly.

Or that the hamper frame could easily be modded into a cab

Edit: oh and with my current pots I could fit 4 ladies in here. probably 10-12 soda bottle clones. I have 3 girls about 3 weeks into flower, if I get this running soon I might put one in here to test.

 

[ScrubNinja]

Apples, I took 5 minutes out of my life to work out your exact measurement needed (I don't usually work in inches) and I didn't pull it out of my ass. I don't know what to say bro. half an inch time 6 does not equal 2 inches..... You have 2/3rds of what any intelligent ICmagger would consider the barest minimum.

Apart from that, it's looking good.

 

[apples]

Lol didnt notice your post b4 about the measurement. I feel like the retard of this thread. I am pretty close to a newb though.

I suppose I'll add some openings on the sides.

 

[ScrubNinja]

lol all good bro. Sorry if I seemed agro. Just be sure to keep any intakes down low like you've done so far.

 

[StealthDragon]

:jawdrop: holy shit LadyLargely. thanx for all the info.

sorry I'm pretty damn high right now and I figured I should like check in or something, I don't really know what to say now. umm..the PC is coming along nicely, should be ready for some greenery in a day or 2. whoa I just killed a spider!! I need to build another lil carbon filter and do a little more lightproofing.

I'm gonna go eat something and finish up the PC, I'm kinda waiting till it's done to put more pics up cuz my connection is slow as hell.

Oh and does anyone know if on my dc adapter to molex....

When it says 5v @ 2A and 12v @2A are those on separate "channels" or whatever? I mean I have 6 ccfls hooked up to the the 12v line, and if I was to hook up my fans to the 5v line would that "suck" power from the lights? I know 5v is low for fans, but still...it's 2A

..and would that be safe to run my 2 fans off of that are only like .14A? I think it would be but I like to double check with all you people that are smarter then me I <3 icmag

 

[ScrubNinja]

Man I've been reading so much about power supplies my head is glowing. I wouldn't touch that question with a 5ft sativa stem. I used to think that the numbers are seperate meaning you can run 2 amps of 5v and 2 amps of 12v simultaneously. But after seeing how intricate all this shit is I just couldn't say. Besides,

I am still confused how any of you guys are working out your amperages?

Specification Of Cold Cathode Light

Length : 300 mm
Voltage : 570 ± 40 V
Current : 5 mA
Power : 2.85 ± 0.30 W
Brightness : Over 18000 ± 3000 nt (cd/m2)
Lift Time : Over 15000 Hours

Specification Of Inverter

Input Voltage : DC 12 V
Output Current : 5 mA
Support Output : Dual

That's 0.005 amps so what the fudge? How are you guys getting your figures?

 

[StealthDragon]

How are you guys getting your figures?

* Tube diameter: 3.0mm
* Tube length: 300mm/100mm
* Input voltage of inverter: 12v
* Output voltage of inverter: 680v
* Current draw: 620mA
* Brightness: 28,000~30,000 cd/m?
* Lifetime: 30,000 hours

620 mA x 3 =1.86A so I'm running it off a 2A adapter......right?

*edit those are specs for a dual set, and I'm running 3 dual sets, hence the x3

 

[ScrubNinja]

Oh. Well that makes sense then!! lol. I guess I need to read more - I was mostly looking at bitspower figures. Thank you for explaining it. Yeah your calcs look fine to me.

I had an emotional attachment to using that xb pro fan, but finally gave up and cut the hole bigger and tried a 92mm delta. Well shit, duh, heat problem instantly solved.



All fans dialled fairly stealth, about as loud as an "average desktop". Temps 2.5f above ambient and that's completely as-is. Haven't checked the intake sizes for the new fan setup, the inverters are hanging down in front of the intakes, etc.

So finally getting somewhere. Even my mylar tape doesn't hold the bulbs reliably enough so I'm going to have to work something out. The power supply seems to run it all okay. It had the shittiest fan I've ever seen in it, so I switched it out for a regular old shitty fan with double the amps. It blows a lot more through the psu now.

Keep it cold

PS that's exactly where the toking tent was situated on that desk

PPS which I am stilllll smoking!

 

[canna cola]

How about for grows like this you rate them by GPWO (Grams Per Watt Output)?

With the PSU ratings as long as the combined amount drawn does not exceed the rating of the PSU you should be fine but with cheap PSUs you should stay under that rating by 30%.
You still need to stay within the limit of each channels rating so no more than the amperage stated for each voltage.
I will use ScrubNinjas PSU as an example:

Go by the +V ratings shown:
+5V @ 22A, stay under 22A (plenty of fans can be run on this, 5V x 22A = 110W)
+12V @ 10A, stay under 10A (12V x 10A = 120W)
PSU is rated @ 300W but don't push it that hard, stay under 250W or even safer for these cheap Yum Cha brand PSUs stay under 200W, you could run both the 12V and 5V at their full rate which would be 230W.
The +5VSB is just another 5V channel rated @ 2A.

Volts X Amps = Watts

With how little power you will be drawing with these set ups you won't exceed the total power rating of your PSU.

Running the fans on the 5V line will make them run slower (just under half speed).
With some fans that might be too low of a voltage to get them to start,most fans need 5V to start spinning, some need 6V.
There is a way to connect the wires from the molex plug to get 7V but as I have had to take some painkillers today (no smoke for weeks ) I won't delve into searching for that info and explaining it as I might get it wrong and I don't want you to blow up your PSU.

The fans will not suck power from the lights, overloading a channel will cause damage to the PSU though so stay under it's rating.

 

[ScrubNinja]

Thanks canna, that was a bloody helpful post. I can't actually find any official current draw figures for the bitspowers, and I've tried formulas and shit but can't seem to work it out. I'm not a complete newb in that area so I feel like a bit of a dolt. All I have to go on is this from that ccfl/computer lighting rundown.

After a few minutes of warm-up time, the Bitspower CCFLs settled to about 540 milliamps (mA) of draw at 12 volts. This doesn't mean the two tubes between them are emitting 6.48 watts (12 times 0.54; watts equals volts times amps) of light, though; it just means the rig is consuming that much power.

So my lights (12 bulbs) would total 6.48 amps, correct?
My fans at full speed if I use my biggest fans, use 2.85 amps.
My fan controller is unknown.

So ^this situation would not be wise on that psu then :/ I mean how written-in-stone is the 30% on cheaper ones? C'mon, I changed the damn internal fan in it! That must count for something, LOL

Also, I will be running one bulb per inverter. So that's going to use even more right? I guess I could move both fans to the 5v line and dispose of the speed control. They are slowed way down via the controller anyway. This seems like a logical thing to try.

The last page of my fan thread has a bit of discussion on getting different voltages out of a psu. I think even I can work that bit out too (although the amps is gonna confuse the crap outta me when I start mixing wires I'm sure) Thanks again bud.

Oh!

How about for grows like this you rate them by GPWO (Grams Per Watt Output)?

That is how I was looking at it before only with an O in the name, right? Well yes, I agree. Unfair to penalise the IDIOTS who bought cheap power supplies etc. And we don't need degrees to work it out, and nobody can accuse us of shit, because it's not "gpw" that we're talking about. Someone just tell me how many watts output I've got and we should be good to go, hahaha. What do the others think? I'm high as hell, I hope it made sense. Sorry you got no meds dude.

 

[DrunkenMessiah]

Running the fans on the 5V line will make them run slower (just under half speed).
With some fans that might be too low of a voltage to get them to start,most fans need 5V to start spinning, some need 6V.
There is a way to connect the wires from the molex plug to get 7V but as I have had to take some painkillers today (no smoke for weeks ) I won't delve into searching for that info and explaining it as I might get it wrong and I don't want you to blow up your PSU.

The fans will not suck power from the lights, overloading a channel will cause damage to the PSU though so stay under it's rating.

This is called a 7 volt mod. It is very easy to do. You just connect the 12 volt positive (yellow) to the positive line on the fan. Then, you connect the 5 volt negative (black that gets paired with the red) to the negative line on the fan. 12-5=7!

This mod is great for high-powered computer fans. Fans like the Vantech Tornado or many of the high-power units made by Thermaltake do really well like this. Cuts the noise by %60 or more but only cuts fan speed by less than half.

7 volt tends to work a lot better than 5 volt. 5 just isn't enough and the fans tend to produce really weak performance, or they just refuse to start at all. 12 volt fans run on 7 still maintain a lot of their original torque and will generate pretty respectable head pressure compared to stock voltage.

One word of warning though. Its a great trick but it does slightly overload the 5 volt power rail. This can be problematic when building a PC as the 5 volt rail can get used a lot depending on your choice of hardware.

But for what you guys are doing it should be smooth sailing. Just don't load up low-quality PSUs with much more than 3 fans modded this way and you'll be fine.

Good luck and happy gardening!

-DM

 

[ScrubNinja]

Cheers DM! I've heard a lot of people say that about fans not running at 5v but my thermaltakes in the cupboard on an adjustable voltage supply run steady on 4.5v. I haven't tried any of my other fans but I guess I just got lucky.

 

[canna cola]

Thanks canna, that was a bloody helpful post. snip



So my lights (12 bulbs) would total 6.48 amps, correct?
My fans at full speed if I use my biggest fans, use 2.85 amps.
My fan controller is unknown.

So ^this situation would not be wise on that psu then :/ I mean how written-in-stone is the 30% on cheaper ones? C'mon, I changed the damn internal fan in it! That must count for something, LOL

Also, I will be running one bulb per inverter. So that's going to use even more right? I guess I could move both fans to the 5v line and dispose of the speed control. They are slowed way down via the controller anyway. This seems like a logical thing to try.

The last page of my fan thread has a bit of discussion on getting different voltages out of a psu. I think even I can work that bit out too (although the amps is gonna confuse the crap outta me when I start mixing wires I'm sure) Thanks again bud.

Oh!



That is how I was looking at it before only with an O in the name, right? Well yes, I agree. Unfair to penalise the IDIOTS who bought cheap power supplies etc. And we don't need degrees to work it out, and nobody can accuse us of shit, because it's not "gpw" that we're talking about. Someone just tell me how many watts output I've got and we should be good to go, hahaha. What do the others think? I'm high as hell, I hope it made sense. Sorry you got no meds dude.

Cheers mate!

If you are running them in the +5VSB channel then it would be a problem as it is rated to 2A but if you are running them on the other +5V channel then that is not a problem as it is rated for 22A.

The 30% safety margin is what I remember from reading about PSUs, changing the fan will help a bit as long as it is pushing more air.

As an example my Corsair HX-620 (620W rated) will happily run with 620W being drawn from it and should do so for it's entire warranty (maybe more) of 5 years, a cheap yum cha brand PSU that has the same rating would likely die within 12 months or less in the same situation, some would crap themself much sooner when pushed that hard.

That said I still wouldn't push my Corsair that much as I want it to have a very long life, my PC doesn't draw more than half that amount at full load anyway, somewhere around 250-280W.

Look on computer forums for PSUs as decent brands with higher wattage ratings can be had for much cheaper than in stores or on ebay.
The same for CCFLs and inverters even if you are just after the inverter and would replace the tube with a new one.

DrunkenMessiah:
Cheers mate, that is the voltage mod I was thinking of.

 

[ScrubNinja]

Thanks buddy. I've been having a rest from it but I have some tricks up my sleeve, I'll keep you informed. I have access to free secondhand PSUs but I figured that would be counterproductive, lol. I dare say this highpod will only last one grow as I'd love to use the lights in my server case...if they pass the grade. So I will make sure it's not overloaded (I didn't realise I was so close!) with the fans, and see how it goes. I have a good idea for keeping the electrics isolated from anything flammable. The fan I bolted into the psu pretty much doubled the airflow. My carbon filter should be here tomorrow I'm guessing.

Also, I've put seeds in I have a pretty shocking record with seeds so I've put 3 in. One of them I soaked for a day in very weak Seasol (kelp) because I'm a wild and crazy guy. They are Leda Uno and they should be quite indica leaning. I think I'll raise them under cfl or something until I actually finish the pod.

Oh ya, they are in that disgusting stuff known as dirt! Gross, I know, but I am way out on that experimental tip at the moment. My vegies are vegging great in this soil mix I knocked up, and I have my head around feeding them via teas, and I just bought a jumbo guano bottle (high p) which should round out my organic nutes a bit better. I think I can do this! I CAN DO THIS!!!

But please be aware this is very experimental for me. Not my first time in dirt but it may as well be. My soil mix is 99.999% organic and the rest of it should be 100 Would have loved to do a biobox/obbt of course but frankly I don't want to stick any more tubes in this thing, lol. I want to get my head around regular organics first.

Peace.