Can an oldtime stoner/grower/breeder enlight us on the term "selfing"(not feminizing)

[chilliwilli]

Can an oldtime stoner/grower/breeder enlight us on the term "selfing"(not feminizing)

Hi icmag

Reading about sacred seeds skunk #1 i found the term selfing used by sam skunkman.

Had to go find the quote by SamS:


"From which region of Afghanistan did the 'Afghan' in 'Skunk #1' come from?"

Mazar, but then crossed with a Columbian, then selfed,...
-SamS

EDIT/Addition:


Some info about Skunk #1 breeding project, here's what Sam wrote when asked about the Mazari x Colombian hybrid in Skunk#1:


"By selfed do you mean you made feminised Mazar x Colombian seeds then crossed one of these females to an Acapulco male?"

No one made feminized seeds until after 1990, I selfed the MazarXColombian hybrids to other MazarXColombian hybrids. This was in the early 70's.

-SamS

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.ph...&postcount=290


https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread....52#post1528952



Looks like the mazar/columbian in skunk was selfed with another mazar/columbian. But what does that mean and what was the goal of selfing in the old days?

Just strain a x b hit with sibling cross a x b or were the parents switched like a x b crossed with sibling b x a?

Was the goal maybe to start inbreeding with less vigor loss because its still Kind of f1?


Any input first or second/third hand or speculation is welcome

Thx chilliwilli

Edit: maybe Sam_Skunkman can enlight us?

Edit: since the update most links or quotes don't work any more. So here is a link to Questions for Sam the Skunkman on Hindu Kush Indicas

​

 

[Maple_Flail]

I would assume, in this context selfing meaning self fetilizations without added chemicals.

meaning, grow the females longer than ever needed to cause the self replication instinsts of the plant to kick in. at some point i'm almost certain now matter how sexually stable a vasriaty can be this instinct will eventually kick in (likely rarely seen as most are focused on moveing the crop faster, apposed to exploring the genetic responses of self preservation.)

if a plant is "ready" at its commercial peak at week 9.. why push it too 20 weeks? it doesn't make sense to most growers in this day and age when alot are concerned about gram/watt.

with no added chemicals blocking dna from expressing its self this action is intrinsically different from "feminization" of a seed. Both male and female aspect of the DNA will be transfered.

I would also assume that this would start to skew the ratio of female to male in the female dominate direction.

one could also assume that this would make male selection in subsiquent generations easier as there would be less variation in them.

 

[chilliwilli]

Thx but i'm sure its not about fem seeds. When u look at the quote from goatcheese there is a quote of sam buried at the end where he said its not about feminizing seeds. Imo feminizing was not known at that time.

I think what u describe is the early starts of making fem seeds. Get some stabels girls really overripe and use the emergency male flowers to make the fem seeds.

 

[Maple_Flail]

To my knowledge, Feminization WAS known at the time. or shortly there after. (edit: known does not equal commercially used)

Cannabis botany came out in '81, if i'm not mistaken the writing was started sometime mid to late 70's. This is the root of all modern feminization techniques.

That being said, feminization occurs when a female plant is treated in a veg state and chemically blocked from producing their Female parts, forcing the expression in male parts ensuring the pollen from these parts will make female or hermi plants.. if it viable...

Selfing, is Self pollination. If there are no chemical blockers stopping the expression of one part of their DNA, there is no feminization. it would take a few generations of this to significantly sway the ratio of female to male to even remotely close to a "faux" feminization of like 90%+ chance of female.

 

[GoatCheese]

Hi

What Sam Skunkman means by “selfing” is that he inbred the Columbian/ Afghan hybrid line for few generation before he added the Mexican into the line(Skunk#1).
The goal was to stabilize the line a bit before adding the Mexi, I’m sure
Here’s the rest of the conversation:

He meant (Mazar x Colombian) x (Mazar x Colombian) and the result (Mazar x Colombian)square x Acapulco gold.

Almost correct, (Colombian x Mazar) x (Mazar x Colombian) and the result (Colombian/MazarXMazar/Colombian)square x Acapulco gold.

-SamS

Here’s the link to the thread where these quotes came out of:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=85992&page=22

 

[Chimera]

I'm not sure Sam would use that same description today.

Selfing really means an individual mated to itself, ie- you use STS or similar to produce male flowers on a clone of an individual genotype, then apply the resulting pollen to another clonal copy of that identical genotype. This process has become to be known as selfing an individual; the resulting generation denoted S1.

What Sam called selfling then, is really an inter se (pronounced 'inter-say' mating. Some goofy breeders call it an "incross", the incorrect but obvious adaptation opposite to an "outcross", which is an actual correct botanical term, unlike "incross".

'Inter se' mating means a specific family of related plants from a given cross, mated amongst themselves. Could be an open pollination of a generation, could be a cross between some selected siblings, or any range between the two scenarios, but the key point to the meaning is "within the group with no external genetic contribution".

in·ter se
/?int?r ?s?,?s?/
adverb: inter se
between or among themselves

That's your latin for the day.
-Chimera

 

[chilliwilli]

Thx for clearing.
I should have read the hindu kush thread further.
So it was in the case of skunk (a x b) x (b x a).
Do u know what the goal was and why not making f2 with the mazar x columbian? Maybe lowering the flower time?

Edit: goal was stabilising

 

[Maple_Flail]

Hi

What Sam Skunkman means by “selfing” is that he inbred the Columbian/ Afghan hybrid line for few generation before he added the Mexican into the line(Skunk#1).
The goal was to stabilize the line a bit before adding the Mexi, I’m sure
Here’s the rest of the conversation:
Here’s the link to the thread where these quotes came out of:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=85992&page=22

that is actually more interesting. so male and females of both columbian and mazar where used crossed with each other then line worked to F2 then added mexican. presumably both initall mazar x columbian and columbian x mazar were worked from F1 to ensure the greatest inbreed F2 diversity.

 

[chilliwilli]

To my knowledge, Feminization WAS known at the time. or shortly there after. (edit: known does not equal commercially used)

Cannabis botany came out in '81, if i'm not mistaken the writing was started sometime mid to late 70's. This is the root of all modern feminization techniques.

That being said, feminization occurs when a female plant is treated in a veg state and chemically blocked from producing their Female parts, forcing the expression in male parts ensuring the pollen from these parts will make female or hermi plants.. if it viable...

Selfing, is Self pollination. If there are no chemical blockers stopping the expression of one part of their DNA, there is no feminization. it would take a few generations of this to significantly sway the ratio of female to male to even remotely close to a "faux" feminization of like 90%+ chance of female.

Thx didn't realise it was known that long.

 

[chilliwilli]

I'm not sure Sam would use that same description today.

Selfing really means an individual mated to itself, ie- you use STS or similar to produce male flowers on a clone of an individual genotype, then apply the resulting pollen to another clonal copy of that identical genotype. This process has become to be known as selfing an individual; the resulting generation denoted S1.

What Sam called selfling then, is really an inter se (pronounced 'inter-say' mating. Some goofy breeders call it an "incross", the incorrect but obvious adaptation opposite to an "outcross", which is an actual correct botanical term, unlike "incross".

'Inter se' mating means a specific family of related plants from a given cross, mated amongst themselves. Could be an open pollination of a generation, could be a cross between some selected siblings, or any range between the two scenarios, but the key point to the meaning is "within the group with no external genetic contribution".

in·ter se
/?int?r ?s?,?s?/
adverb: inter se
between or among themselves

That's your latin for the day.
-Chimera

Thx for clearing that. Do u have a thought what the goal was of switching the parents?

 

[CrustyCruz]

Cannabis breeding lingo always confuses. Seen the same scenario called at least 5 different techniques.

I'm going to coin a new one : Sam's Mazarxcolumbian was a KCL - a kissin cousin line..

 

[GoatCheese]

Cannabis breeding lingo always confuses. Seen the same scenario called at least 5 different techniques.

..maybe it's the people who are using the lingo that are the real problem, not the terminology itself. The broken telephone-effect = When your bro read something at grower forums

 

[GMT]

We're all learning as time passes. Those who started first will have more mistakes in their terminology than those who started later and had the benefits, of those who had learned to correct those early mistakes.
Chimera nailed it.

 

[Grover Sativa]

selfing is using the same plant as the mother and father, put simply.

I used to have a White Widow female that finished at 9 weeks with no intersex signs but if you left her until week 12 a few male sex organs were produced at the bottom of the plant.
I used this pollen on a fresh cutting of the same plant, just starting to flower and produced some viable seed.
I ‘selfed’ my White Widow female. The best resulting female (of course, they were ALL female) became known as The Stinky Widow. She was lovely.

Selfing can be a useful tool for breeding but is the ultimate expression of inbreeding (not sure I said that quite right) and will quickly lead to problems like a lack of vigour, sexual instability, etc...

 

[Loc Dog]

What Chimera said. Using silver thiosulfate to force a female cutting to become male, and crossing back to same parent. Will make feminized seeds.

Can also use colloidal silver.

 

[St. Phatty]

In Week 8-9, un-pollinated female plants sometimes create pollen.

Sometimes that pollen is fertile.

Kind of standard, not a big deal, BUT may be responsible for some of the better strains that we talk about, e.g. Princess, mother of C99.