BUTANE EXTRACTION AND RECOVERY SYSTEM

[Gray Wolf]

hmm, graywolf(at)gmail.com ?

Check your PM.

 

[banana buds]

seems to only allow me 1 message right now, so i cleared that one out. try now? sorry!

 

[Flying High]

Thanks for the imformative replies... I hear you loud and clear regarding pipe size;thank you both Grey Wolf and BB for the guideance.

So I will go with the 5o pound tank for sure since the price difference is negligiable apparently. II think I am sold on the Stainless steel spools from Glacietanks you mentioned earlier... I am torn between the 1.5" and 2" in the 24" length; part of me is wondering how much more efficient it is to fill the column from the bottom. I would imagine with the bottom fill and a semi loose pack of material, a fairly good saturation would be achieved easily and quickly, at least in my mind.

At this point the difference between 1.5" and 2" isn't going to be a deal breaker as either is substantially more volume than the Tamisium units.... I am also trying to decide how much I should try to plumb with thise neat looking Stainless STEEL Tri-Clamp fittings; and where to transition to stainless IPT or Flare. As much as I want this unit to be easy to disassemble, I have a feeling Tri-Clamp fittings throughout will be pricy...

Anyways, I am going to get started ordering stuff here this weekend I think; hopefully I can get a manual version together fairly quickly thanks to all of the deytailed instructions...

thanks again and I appreciate any and all advice...
H

 

[knowhere]

how many gallons of butane can one safely put in a 50lb recovery tank?

 

[banana buds]

how many gallons of butane can one safely put in a 50lb recovery tank?

someone correct me if i am wrong, but 4.5 gallons is a standard 80% fill for that size of tank, although technically i believe it could handle as much as 4.6 gallons. the tank's full liquid capacity is higher than that, but you cannot fill it over 80% for safety reasons.

 

[Gray Wolf]

how many gallons of butane can one safely put in a 50lb recovery tank?

Your tank should have a WC number stamped on it, which for my 50# tanks is 47.7 pounds. That is how much water it would hold and you are allowed an 80% fill, so that is 38.16 lbs at 80% capacity.

Thats about 4.6 gallons of liquid, which will only weigh about 23# if it is n Butane.

 

[knowhere]

Thanks GreyWolf that is very helpful.

Flying high:
"I athink I am going to try out the Teflonbags from Flourocarbon; I am getting tired of scraping, even with the multitude of handmade tools I have built in the pursuit of effortless scraping. As for scraping,I realized today, one of those Rotozip'esque reciprocating blade thingy's would probably make an amazing scraping tool...."


pro tip here : do not get the modified pftfe bags get the 5 mil FEP bags, when you get those puppies cold you can get the product right out easily, much much more so then with the ptfe bags in my experience, the oil seems to stick to the surface texture with the modified ptfe ones and requires a hot alcohol wash to get them clean and all product out.

 

[DIDM]

sculpting tools work great, they bend and have lots of different angles

 

[Flying High]

Great idea to use sculpting tools; I will grab a selection next time I see some...

Would anyone who has purchased the Appian G5 pump recommend a specific vendor? As far as regular rebuilds; is their a rebuild kit with all of the required seals and parts; or is this something where the retailers that sell the pump don't carry the parts? I'm asking because I feel like I need to have at least one complete set of parts on hand for the pump at all times; I am a big fan of being prepared...

As far as the pump purchase, I'm really trying to decide if I should ask a Journymen HVAC Tech who is a close friend, if he could pick-up this Appian unit from a local wholesaler; or if I should just order from one of the online vendors? I am all about saving money, but I respect my friends time enough, that I would need to save more than a hundred dollars to make it worth involving my friend.

thanks for all of the great info in this thread, it sure is making my dreams come true...

 

[Flying High]

pro tip here : do not get the modified pftfe bags get the 5 mil FEP bags, when you get those puppies cold you can get the product right out easily, much much more so then with the ptfe bags in my experience, the oil seems to stick to the surface texture with the modified ptfe ones and requires a hot alcohol wash to get them clean and all product out.

Thank you very much for the info; I am pretty sure I know exactly the texture you speak of...

 

[foaf]

I've been getting the fep bags lately too, they are better. any of them can crack if you manipulate them while they are very cold, so let it evaporate and warm up a bit before playing around with it. ive never rinsed them out, because a little stuck in there just gets mixed with the next run, you can use them over and over if you dont crack them.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Great idea to use sculpting tools; I will grab a selection next time I see some...

Would anyone who has purchased the Appian G5 pump recommend a specific vendor? As far as regular rebuilds; is their a rebuild kit with all of the required seals and parts; or is this something where the retailers that sell the pump don't carry the parts? I'm asking because I feel like I need to have at least one complete set of parts on hand for the pump at all times; I am a big fan of being prepared...

As far as the pump purchase, I'm really trying to decide if I should ask a Journymen HVAC Tech who is a close friend, if he could pick-up this Appian unit from a local wholesaler; or if I should just order from one of the online vendors? I am all about saving money, but I respect my friends time enough, that I would need to save more than a hundred dollars to make it worth involving my friend.

thanks for all of the great info in this thread, it sure is making my dreams come true...

Two from here http://www.centurytool.net/G5_Twin_Appion_Oilless_Recovery_Unit_p/g5-twin.htm

 

[Flying High]

GreyWolf, thank you so much for the link. I will place my order for the pump and other accessories I can from Century, as well as all of the Tri-Clamp components I need along with four columns. I will also place an order for those great looking o-rings with screen...
If you can think of anything else that may help, I am all ears... I appreciate this thread and all of the effort that has went into this design.

Thank you so very much... I hope to be reporting back in a week or two with at least a completed system, hopefully some results as well...

 

[Gray Wolf]

Good luck with your new toy! Looking forwared to sharing your results!

 

[Hydrosun]

Is there an apprentice program where one can work and learn? Maybe even a student program where one pays, works, and learns?

Your work is very inspiring and I hope to give BHO making a whirl but it looks a little intimidating. I am serious about wanting to be an intern / student / apprentice. I'll even bring in lunch and pick up the dry cleaning

 

[banana buds]

any thoughts on gasket material? used white platinum-cured silicone on this first unit and i'm finding they tend to expand out to an unusable diameter after being used for a bit. if nobody has an idea i suppose i'll start just trying other stuff, but it'd be nice if someone can comment.

possible other choices:
-buna-n
-EDPM
-viton
-PTFE
-tuf-steel (super expensive!)

*edit to include some cursory research:

-inventec nova-spray (54% n-butane / 24% isobutane/ 22% propane blend propellant) data sheet indicates that it is compatible with buna-n

this site http://www.efunda.com/glossary/design/oring/design--oring--chemical--butane.cfm seems useful too, it indicates viton should work.

if nobody says otherwise, i'll probably try one or both of those first.

 

[knowhere]

For gaskets:

buna-n or teflon, the teflon gasktes are hard and you really have to tighten down on the clamp, hopefully your clamps have a hole you can shove a skrew driver blade through to use for extra torque if you are using teflon gaskets, you may find limited mileable using teflon on sections of your extractor thatt you will be unclamping frequently.

Teflon "creeps", that is it changes shape or slow flows with time and pressure like wax, I have had many teflon seated ball valves leak on me in test sleds after cold / pressure / vacuum / conditions after many uses, finding replacements valve seats sometimes is impossible for some valve models so it is also best to pick valves that have mix of teflon re-enforced with fiberglass for longer lasting ball valves, lately the ones I prefer are tri clamp 3 piece valves you can take apart and easily source replacement seats for.... but I am going off on a tangent related to valves, so now back to gaskets..

FEP encapsulated silicone, vitron or FKM flouropolymers also make good gaskets as well, for tri clamps some of those I just listed are harder to find and much more expensive then black Buna-n or white buna-n.

Silicone is not compatible with our solvent and its very likely if you have your solvents flowing against a silicone gasket you are getting some dissolved silicone in your medicine.

also stay away from epdm gaskets.

Foaf, What temps were you experiencing the FEP cracking at so I can watch out for that?

I have PFA and FEP bottles that I use for long term storage of well cured oils, I once used a few 1000ml nalgene FEP wise mouth bottles for a liner in a 1 liter capacity evaporation chamber I had built for my first test sled.

Those bottles worked great once the vacuum purge / solvent bake off was done, I would simply let the oil pool into a corner edge of the bottom of the bottle while it was still warm and then put the bottle in a freezer and wait until it read around 0f or so on my infrared thermometer. I would then need to only lightly tap the bottle against the freezer door to loosen the solid slug of oil free from it's corner. I never had a problem with cracking those bottles, sometimes I would give them a good wack if there was allot of oil droplets on the inner walls to get it all down to the bottom, those bottles are a bit thicker then the bags so I guess they have that going for them or maybe I am not getting things as cold as you are?

Anyone out there have advice on a good vacuum pump? my g5 only pulls my system or individual modules of my system down to around -24.5" Hg or so on my gauge, and the robinair 5CFM 15500 vacuum pump only takes it to 27.8 after that.

I am fairly certain that the problem is not a leak in my vessels, when I pull them down and check 48 hours later both of the vessels that make up my system are still holding the exact same level of vacuum, if there was a leak I would expect that the vacuum level would drop, so it must be the pump is not doing its job or maybe my gauge is a little off?

anyone on here having any luck with tri clamp fittings over 4", I have been thinking allot about 6", 8" and 10" weld on ferrels lately.

 

[Gray Wolf]

any thoughts on gasket material? used white platinum-cured silicone on this first unit and i'm finding they tend to expand out to an unusable diameter after being used for a bit. if nobody has an idea i suppose i'll start just trying other stuff, but it'd be nice if someone can comment.

possible other choices:
-buna-n
-EDPM
-viton
-PTFE
-tuf-steel (super expensive!)

*edit to include some cursory research:

-inventec nova-spray (54% n-butane / 24% isobutane/ 22% propane blend propellant) data sheet indicates that it is compatible with buna-n

this site http://www.efunda.com/glossary/design/oring/design--oring--chemical--butane.cfm seems useful too, it indicates viton should work.

if nobody says otherwise, i'll probably try one or both of those first.

A good source of compatibility information!


http://www.coleparmer.com/Chemical-Resistance

 

[Gray Wolf]

Is there an apprentice program where one can work and learn? Maybe even a student program where one pays, works, and learns?

Your work is very inspiring and I hope to give BHO making a whirl but it looks a little intimidating. I am serious about wanting to be an intern / student / apprentice. I'll even bring in lunch and pick up the dry cleaning

If you are around Portland, we do free classes. Last year at the pharm, but so far this year only at a NGF, which charged its members a fee for the space rental. We are close to having our new shack up and running in time to resume our free summer classes at the pharm.

There is also always room in the skunk pharmer circle for contributing associates that either have fine minds and contribute, have a weak mind and strong back, are independently wealthy, or are purdy, fun to watch, and gullible.

 

[Gray Wolf]

For gaskets:

buna-n or teflon, the teflon gasktes are hard and you really have to tighten down on the clamp, hopefully your clamps have a hole you can shove a skrew driver blade through to use for extra torque if you are using teflon gaskets, you may find limited mileable using teflon on sections of your extractor thatt you will be unclamping frequently.

Teflon "creeps", that is it changes shape or slow flows with time and pressure like wax, I have had many teflon seated ball valves leak on me in test sleds after cold / pressure / vacuum / conditions after many uses, finding replacements valve seats sometimes is impossible for some valve models so it is also best to pick valves that have mix of teflon re-enforced with fiberglass for longer lasting ball valves, lately the ones I prefer are tri clamp 3 piece valves you can take apart and easily source replacement seats for.... but I am going off on a tangent related to valves, so now back to gaskets..

FEP encapsulated silicone, vitron or FKM flouropolymers also make good gaskets as well, for tri clamps some of those I just listed are harder to find and much more expensive then black Buna-n or white buna-n.

Silicone is not compatible with our solvent and its very likely if you have your solvents flowing against a silicone gasket you are getting some dissolved silicone in your medicine.

also stay away from epdm gaskets.

Foaf, What temps were you experiencing the FEP cracking at so I can watch out for that?

I have PFA and FEP bottles that I use for long term storage of well cured oils, I once used a few 1000ml nalgene FEP wise mouth bottles for a liner in a 1 liter capacity evaporation chamber I had built for my first test sled.

Those bottles worked great once the vacuum purge / solvent bake off was done, I would simply let the oil pool into a corner edge of the bottom of the bottle while it was still warm and then put the bottle in a freezer and wait until it read around 0f or so on my infrared thermometer. I would then need to only lightly tap the bottle against the freezer door to loosen the solid slug of oil free from it's corner. I never had a problem with cracking those bottles, sometimes I would give them a good wack if there was allot of oil droplets on the inner walls to get it all down to the bottom, those bottles are a bit thicker then the bags so I guess they have that going for them or maybe I am not getting things as cold as you are?

Anyone out there have advice on a good vacuum pump? my g5 only pulls my system or individual modules of my system down to around -24.5" Hg or so on my gauge, and the robinair 5CFM 15500 vacuum pump only takes it to 27.8 after that.

I am fairly certain that the problem is not a leak in my vessels, when I pull them down and check 48 hours later both of the vessels that make up my system are still holding the exact same level of vacuum, if there was a leak I would expect that the vacuum level would drop, so it must be the pump is not doing its job or maybe my gauge is a little off?

anyone on here having any luck with tri clamp fittings over 4", I have been thinking allot about 6", 8" and 10" weld on ferrels lately.

Lots of good information bro, thanks for sharing!

If you don't have any leaks, and are running a Robinair final pump, I would first be suspicious of your gauge. I find when analog bourdon style gauges are new and you cycle them between pressure and vacuum, they require frequent recalibration, until they settle in. The Robinair should be capable of pulling your system down to micron levels.

The G5 should pull down further too, if you are heating the collection pot, but in point of fact, I don't pull ours down below 22"hg with it, before switching to the high vac pump, because when you run the recovery pumps at high vacuum, it accelerates the wear on the seals.

It also struggles mightily to pull the last bit of vacuum, even with a thermal boost, while the two stage vane pump walks through it like Sherman through Georgia in moments. Gaseous butane loss is about 26.5% of the chamber volume and gas to liquid converts at about 233:1, so our losses are about $0.0014 per grams of BHOAA produced.

Sorry, I've used larger tri clamp connections in industry, but only on waste water. I have some 6" parts on order, for a passive system similar to a Tamisium, that I want to try, so I may have some experience shortly. Our pumped system can see up to 75 psi with a double column load of butane dumped into a hot recovery vessel, but typically operates between 30 psi positive pressure, and -29.5" hg vacuum.

PS: How is your leak up rate after you pump it down and valve it off for 24 hours?