Breeding with Haze...and beyond...

[Elevator Man]

I plan to start a simple breeding program soon, and there's a couple of things I'd like to clear up, before I get started, as despite the amount I've read, I'm still unclear on one or two issues, which I'd like to ask out here.

I plan to cross a mystery female that's been around my area for years of exceptional quality, with male plants of Seedsman Original Haze and Malawi Gold. In Greg Green's Cannabis Breeder's Bible, he suggests that a sativa such as Haze would, due to the flowering time involved, be generally only be stabilised for certain traits, in this case flowering time, taste/smell, potency, and yield.
Given the female I'll be using is also extremely potent, I'm assuming that losing potency in any cross here will not be an issue. Therefore would it be also safe to assume that any male selection I make from the two sativa strains could be made purely on health/vigor and ideally shortness and fast flowering times?
In other words, if an IBL strain such as Haze has unpredictable traits that could be advantageous indoors, (like short stature), could I select purely on that trait alone, as all the traits I expect from the Haze, listed above, will always appear?

My other question then is based on the results from my theoretical cross. I have no idea what my mystery female is, but based on its qualities (fast flowering, dense buds, copious resin, tall-ish with a cerebral hit), I'm guessing it's either something like Northern Lights # 5 or similar. It's indica, but not couchlock at all, and has much longer, thinner leaf blades than most indicas I've seen. NL # 5 is 25% Thai, which would be about right here, but I could be wrong.
Anyway, I'm assuming that my mystery female is pretty stable itself, maybe not IBL, but close. So if I cross with IBL or land-race strains such as Haze or Malawi, would I be right in thinking that my F1 offspring should be almost totally homozygous, if the female is pretty locked down itself? And if that IS the case, it brings me to the crucial issue:

If I cross two P1s of wildly different origin, like a pure Afghan with a pure Mexican, then I should always get identical offspring, due to the genes being evenly mixed. So when picking parents to breed to F2, can I always make the selections based purely on health and vigor, and no other criteria. i.e. if the genes are evenly mixed and all phenos are alike, any male/female combination will give the same result - a complete palette of the possible variations between Afghani and Mexican?
The reason for all this is that it's unlikley I'll be able to produce vast quantities of any offspring here, and therefore it would be good to be able to select for health alone from say 20 seedlings, rather than a few different traits from hundreds!

I do hope this all makes sense...?

Thanks

 

[deZerTomB]

i'm no expert.

i'm no expert.

In other words, if an IBL strain such as Haze has unpredictable traits that could be advantageous indoors, (like short stature), could I select purely on that trait alone, as all the traits I expect from the Haze, listed above, will always appear?

Pretty much. If you use a short bushy female and a short bushy male to pollenate her then even if they were both hazes which are predominately tall and stretchy, the result will be short bushy again, minimum 25% depending on genetics of haze.

 

[deZerTomB]

you can do what you want

you can do what you want

freedom on the march and all that.
can I always make the selections based purely on health and vigor, and no other criteria.

sure, you really don't need to grow out thousands of beans to maturity to find that special keeper. I've had plenty of success selecting from 6-8 plants to breed from for future grows.

If you cross your best plants you should get good results. I've never grown a male to maturity, always whack it after it drops pollen, so I always select males based on vigor, stature(bushiness-tight internodal), and stem color(purple stripes, reddish leaf stems), also smell of stems and leafs.

As far as will your cross be completely uniform? Really only one way to find out, by doing it. Either way at least you'll have beans for future grows or to trade-give away.

rock on!!!

 

[Elevator Man]

That's excellent info, and good news all round - thanks for your prompt response! I've attached a few pics of the mother I plan to use - as I mentioned, I have no idea what it is, but suspect it to be Northern Lights # 5 or similar, as it is way too cerebral/psychedelic for a normal indica, and the leaf shape suggests a strong sativa input.

But, it flowers too fast for a Skunk/NL/Haze hybrid like JH - I have that, and expect it to be around 70 days, which I can confirm after the next crop. This one is never more than 56 finished, and I've done it in 49. It's aroma/taste is amazing - fruity rather than skunky, sweet rather than sour, and it has a certain solvent top note that's gorgeous, but very difficult to describe. In one sniff, I can detect lavender, turkish delight, all sorts of imaginary stuff, but it's a complex one.

Additionally, it has very dense buds with good mold resistance, doesn't shrivel when drying, and produces superb resin yield for hash too (see ball shots here: http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=22961&page=6&pp=15 )

In short, I adore it, and if I could only keep one strain out of everything, the rest would go in a second. The only 'improvements' I'd like to make (as I must have some kind of target, or it's not worth it), would be to extend buds slightly, so they're not as clumpy, add more spice to the aroma, but most importantly, get that high into the stratospheric realms, which I'm convinced is possible, given the stock. And a bit of close attention...

I won't get going until post-June, but I will document everything, rest assured!

 

[OG bub]

sorry.. but HAZE is NOT an IBL! especially Haze less removed from the original!
you wouldnt have an F1 at all either.

Ive said this more times than I can think...

laws of inheritance cannot be observed/applied to "f" filial generations, per ratio, If either parent is NOT and IBL.


you would NOT see uniform production from the vast majority of Hybrid combinations.


that being said I encourage you to make some seed! If you got good parents, youll generally have good offspring. Haze is a rewarding line to work with.

male effect-potency in crossing, can be judged in the off spring: By using the same mother plant, bred to different father plants, recorded> the offspring can then be observed, in mass, and the results of the different fathers..
Ive use this technique regularly.... It is most definetly TIMELY! and results are best observed by growing the test offspring in groups atleast 20 or more plants, so to more accurately observe variation and difference.

There are some very informational reads in the Hill Temple Collective forum, come on by: http://www.icmag.com/ic/forumdisplay.php?f=97


peace, bub.

 

[Elevator Man]

Bub

Many thanks for your reply, and apologies for tweaking your pique on that IBL - I sincerely thought Haze was IBL - or at least certainly the Seedsman version is - it's certainly sold that way:

http://www.seedsman.com/en/cannabis-seeds/seedsman-seeds/true-breeding-strains/original-haze-seeds

It's listed under their 'true-breeding strains', and the blurb suggests the stock is the original Sacred Seeds line, but you're more up on the lineage than I, so I must defer to your experience. I'm old to growing, but new to breeding. Or is a 'stabilized hybrid' not strictly IBL? And that being the case, how original IS the Seedsman line?

And thanks for clearing up the male selection issue too - very interesting. I use very limited space in rented property, so it's risky to expand too much, hence the problem in the first place. I do have more space, but I'm wary of it getting too large and being deemed a 'commercial' grow should it ever get found. I hope not, as it's not commercial, but there have been busts here where a tray of clones was classed as full-grown plants. If I let my hobby go where I wanted, I would have hundreds, but it just doesn't feel safe enough for that yet!

That said though, your point about using multiple males for potency tests - have you discovered a large degree of variance in potency, ie significant enough to drop work and begin new? I was hoping that potency would be a trait I wouldn't have to worry about!

Anyway, thanks again, and thanks for the link to your forum - there are indeed some serious articles there, and I'll spend the rest of the evening browsing. And perhaps order a few seeds is a week or two...

 

[OG bub]

High!
as for seedsmans Original Haze... I dont have exp with it.. It could be an Inbred line of a pheno from the actual original haze line.. that would however then not be original haze, it would be an inbred Haze pheno.. as Haze is a Hybrid of atleast a few Landrace lines. several variances could be observed in haze of earlier years (original haze)
as I ment by saying its less original if its farther removed.

My works in it, I bred in towards the purple pheno, and earlier bloom.. HillTemple Haze is 4th generation, and far removed from an expression of original haze, better represenative of "purple Haze" or the 'colombian pheno'.

male effect in potency/offspring:
when using the multiple male tech as I described, potency variance observed in female offspring, from different fathers is noticable, how profoundly will depend greatly on:
-stability of the Father line
-the use of fathers from the same line
-the use of fathers from different lines

yes, Ive decided one line over the other using this tech.. however I appreciate the results more inbreeding allready quite inbred lines... to retain that goodness people often feel gets rubbed out, or could have been overlooked by a lesser selection process.


thanks for yer time. peace, bub.