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Breeding for beginners
- Thread starter glasspackedbowl
- Start date
Nunsacred
Active member
I can't see your point, Adze, if it's not that we might accidentally enrich hermie stock by limiting males to mostly those which remain 'hidden', ie. often hermies.
Some hermies probably do avoid going hermie if they're outcrossed, others probably don't, there's not going to be some universal rule, there never is.
So either try it out for yourself, or specify which seed stock you're talking about, and hope that someone experienced with it can tell you their experience with dusting it, everything else is guesswork.
Some hermies probably do avoid going hermie if they're outcrossed, others probably don't, there's not going to be some universal rule, there never is.
So either try it out for yourself, or specify which seed stock you're talking about, and hope that someone experienced with it can tell you their experience with dusting it, everything else is guesswork.
Environment has a lot to do with expression of certain genetic traits like intersex plants. Intersex plants are found naturally in cannabis, depending on environmental factors is whether or not the plant actually exhibits this trait. It could be anything, temperature, humidity, pests, diet, air exchange, lack of males could possibly be a reason that a plant goes intersex.
A good example is people who have been found to be psychopaths and haven't killed anyone, lead somewhat normal lives. They have the genes and all the scientific signs of being psycho but they were raised in a good home with both parents and had a great childhood, the so called best environment. The gene didn't express itself, even though its there. They didn't go nuts and start killing people without remorse. I kinda look at intersex plants the same way, the gene is there but if raised in the best environment the plant will probably not exhibit it. Change something in that environment and the plant will probably show intersex traits.
Good breeding means finding individual plants that are resistant against showing this gene. It's very tough to find plants without it, its found in the population naturally. Each seed is different, each plant is an individual. Just because mom and dad are awesome and don't show the trait doesn't mean the kids will. We have to accept that as growers and breeders. There will always be intersex individuals, it is the job of breeders during the selection process to meticulously select the individuals that do not show the traits. Out of 10 plants thats easy but all 10 could have the gene and all 10 could not show it at first...
THERE ARE NO SHORT CUTS IN BREEDING! Tom and the real breeders who have been around, are still around and have a great rep know what I mean. It takes a lot of time to stabalize a line and make sure that one breeds the good traits in and the bad traits out and still have something unique they can call their own. They have a good rep not because people dont find any intersex plants at all in their lines but because the percentage found is low and consistently low. You can never get rid of it. Massive respect to all the breeders that do it right. And growers when getting your seeds make sure to get proven genetics and make sure your own selection is the best of what you get. Keep it danK!
A good example is people who have been found to be psychopaths and haven't killed anyone, lead somewhat normal lives. They have the genes and all the scientific signs of being psycho but they were raised in a good home with both parents and had a great childhood, the so called best environment. The gene didn't express itself, even though its there. They didn't go nuts and start killing people without remorse. I kinda look at intersex plants the same way, the gene is there but if raised in the best environment the plant will probably not exhibit it. Change something in that environment and the plant will probably show intersex traits.
Good breeding means finding individual plants that are resistant against showing this gene. It's very tough to find plants without it, its found in the population naturally. Each seed is different, each plant is an individual. Just because mom and dad are awesome and don't show the trait doesn't mean the kids will. We have to accept that as growers and breeders. There will always be intersex individuals, it is the job of breeders during the selection process to meticulously select the individuals that do not show the traits. Out of 10 plants thats easy but all 10 could have the gene and all 10 could not show it at first...
THERE ARE NO SHORT CUTS IN BREEDING! Tom and the real breeders who have been around, are still around and have a great rep know what I mean. It takes a lot of time to stabalize a line and make sure that one breeds the good traits in and the bad traits out and still have something unique they can call their own. They have a good rep not because people dont find any intersex plants at all in their lines but because the percentage found is low and consistently low. You can never get rid of it. Massive respect to all the breeders that do it right. And growers when getting your seeds make sure to get proven genetics and make sure your own selection is the best of what you get. Keep it danK!
Actually I said that lack of males could be a stress factor...it depends on the individual plant...
Hi again guys.
Adze,
I agree with what Nunsacred is saying re your first question, it is much more likely that selection pressure rather than stress is making room for populations favoring the intersex trait. Eg, In a natural open stand we'll commonly see males, females, and intersex plants. In the absence of human intervention this population will surely favor/evolve to dioecy (a male/female population) because males have the ability to produce more pollen than intersex plants. Take away those males though and what's left, intersex plants to do the pollinating. This, rather than anything else would be my best guess as to what's happening.
You second question -will pollinating lesson/block intersex expression- is a more interesting one and easier to entertain as a possibility imo. While entertaining the idea, we can point to pregnancy very greatly affecting hormone production etc in other species. -Tom
Adze,
I agree with what Nunsacred is saying re your first question, it is much more likely that selection pressure rather than stress is making room for populations favoring the intersex trait. Eg, In a natural open stand we'll commonly see males, females, and intersex plants. In the absence of human intervention this population will surely favor/evolve to dioecy (a male/female population) because males have the ability to produce more pollen than intersex plants. Take away those males though and what's left, intersex plants to do the pollinating. This, rather than anything else would be my best guess as to what's happening.
You second question -will pollinating lesson/block intersex expression- is a more interesting one and easier to entertain as a possibility imo. While entertaining the idea, we can point to pregnancy very greatly affecting hormone production etc in other species. -Tom
I gotta spread more rep before giving it to Tom Hill again...but damn that was a perfect explanation! Thanks Tom!
Adze
Member
Hey Tom,
I appreciate the response, thanks for the time.
The selection to remove all the males was sort of a given in my question. Of course, I agree that selection has the greatest effect on all the traits. Having thought about it and I can see that the selection process petty much preempts any effect from stress, can’t think of a case that it wouldn’t. This is good, I’m fairly new to much of this. Always willing to press a case for the sake of finding answers.
I find the genetics and environmentally influenced unique pheno expressions to be fascinating. You know, it was that haze photo of yours that brought me to ICMag. Longer story, but what fountain of information this place can be.
I appreciate the response, thanks for the time.
The selection to remove all the males was sort of a given in my question. Of course, I agree that selection has the greatest effect on all the traits. Having thought about it and I can see that the selection process petty much preempts any effect from stress, can’t think of a case that it wouldn’t. This is good, I’m fairly new to much of this. Always willing to press a case for the sake of finding answers.
I find the genetics and environmentally influenced unique pheno expressions to be fascinating. You know, it was that haze photo of yours that brought me to ICMag. Longer story, but what fountain of information this place can be.
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But why then are feminized plants more prone to producing male parts when stressed? At least that's what I have read and assume.
I thought feminized plants were considered worthless for breeding because of this, that it might further exaggerate the herma tendency.
It interests me, because I had a plant herm, pollinate itsself, two other plants from the same strain and two plants from another strain. And I don't know if these seeds are worth growing out, possibly risking more seeded weed. I'm too curious so I'll probably germinate some sooner or later
Sprinkl the only thing plants born from forced reversals are more prone to do is produce more female plants than male/female matings. All other writings and assumptions regarding them that I have ever seen have never once been accompanied by anything even remotely resembling a decent argument, let alone a science-based one. There is nothing whatsoever inherently bad about using these plants for breeding.
Plants born from unforced reversals (intersex plants) are a different matter.-T
Plants born from unforced reversals (intersex plants) are a different matter.-T
SOWtheSEED
Member
How do I successfully breed
a male blueberry with a female lemon skunk clone
Nukem x watermelon male with a female hawaiian snow clone
Juicy Fruit x kish male with a female super silver haze clone?
a male blueberry with a female lemon skunk clone
Nukem x watermelon male with a female hawaiian snow clone
Juicy Fruit x kish male with a female super silver haze clone?
Thanks TomHill,
I have had two grows in which I caused a plant from a feminized seed to herm. In the first I trimmed the plants about 2 weeks into flower and in the second my timer failed and gave them too much light. Each time 1 out of 5 plants hermed, and stopped producing sacks after a week.
I was under the assumption that this might not have happened with regular seed. So I was wrong?
I'm growing my first regular seeds now so I might find out soon I guess, he he..
It's confusing. I have a nice book from Soma in which he says he produces his female seeds organically by letting his strain flower 2 weeks too long and look for sacks. I don't think all plants from a strain would be able to produce sacks this way, so he's using somewhat hermaphrodite plants to breed? Or are all plants capable of doing this under stress?
Adze
Member
sprinkl,
Perhaps if I offer my read on this, one of the many more experienced folks here will offer to correct whatever errors and you’ll get the real answer.
My impression is that a distinction needs to be made between forced reversals and stress induced inter-sexed traits.
Forced reversals have the range of genes that were present in the mother. If the mother has these inter-sexed traits in her genes, you might find it expressed in the seeds. If she didn’t have any, then you won’t. That being said, many plants likely have, but never show these traits. If pollen from a plant hits itself you are combining two sets of genes that are both from the same source, the likelihood of recessive genes expressing themselves is increased. (I think if you’re looking for some special trait then this great. Why clutter up the combination with more genes, when it’s already a needle in a haystack trying to find the good ones?)
Reversals resulting from minor environmental stresses are always going to have genes for inter-sexed traits. Still, you might find some great plants among these.
Perhaps if I offer my read on this, one of the many more experienced folks here will offer to correct whatever errors and you’ll get the real answer.
My impression is that a distinction needs to be made between forced reversals and stress induced inter-sexed traits.
Forced reversals have the range of genes that were present in the mother. If the mother has these inter-sexed traits in her genes, you might find it expressed in the seeds. If she didn’t have any, then you won’t. That being said, many plants likely have, but never show these traits. If pollen from a plant hits itself you are combining two sets of genes that are both from the same source, the likelihood of recessive genes expressing themselves is increased. (I think if you’re looking for some special trait then this great. Why clutter up the combination with more genes, when it’s already a needle in a haystack trying to find the good ones?)
Reversals resulting from minor environmental stresses are always going to have genes for inter-sexed traits. Still, you might find some great plants among these.
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freeskierpj
Member
Posting so that later when I start working on breeding it will be in my list of threads under "My Posts"
weeddaddy50
Member
subed
subed
for future read.
subed
for future read.
