Bottom leaves yellowing

[indole]

Why are the bottom leaves turning yellow on my plant? I've gave it some fertilizer but its still turning yellow. Here are some pictures of the problem.





The plant is 16 days old and I've been growing it under a 70W HPS inside a small cabinet (12x12x40). The temps usually around 80-84F with lights on and down to 70F lights off. Any help is appreciated. Thanks

 

[VanGrow]

using ro water ......... could be mag def? ....
whats ph of run off? could be ph prob........
could be underfeeding...
could be over feeding....
could be your soil....

theres alot of could be's...

need details.......................

 

[Guest]

Uhhh, the lower leaves are probably not getting much light. They look very small as though they were the first leaves to pop. The new growth looks good and green so I would so leave em and dont worry until the yellowing begins to affect new growth.

Hopefully ya mixed 1-2tbsp of dolomite in there as that can seriously help maintain the proper pH.

 

[Growdoc]

Foilar or spray feed with a straight N solution wait 20 mins then use a 6.0PH spray to rinse it off.

GrowDoc

 

[indole]

Hmm, after looking at the plants again I think it is a Mg deficiency. The leafs look like they're curling upwards and some of the lower leaves tips are beginning to turn yellow. I've just tried foliar feeding using some epsom salts and hopefully that fixes it.

 

[indole]

I found some bottled spring water in my house and was wondering if thats good enough until I am able to get a RO filter system. On the label it says TDS 220 ppm and then breaks it down into the different ions:
Mg 16ppm
Ca 46ppm
SO4 12ppm
Na 4ppm
K 1ppm
HCO3 190 ppm
Cl 1 ppm

Thanks

 

[f0urtwenty]

If you believe you have an Mg def, then RO water would hinder, not help your plants. The RO would remove a majority of the Mg and a lot of users of RO use an cal-mag additive. http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=59954&highlight=cal-mag

You may want to look into Cal-Mag Plus as an additive, or start using tap water, which usually has a higher ppm of Mg.

Here's an image i stole somewhere that might help you.

 

[Growdoc]

use tap water rather then spring water.

GrowDoc

 

[indole]

I just went and took some pictures of the leafs curling upwards and some of the tips turning yellow so maybe you guys can confirm its Mg or maybe its something else?







I've been using tap water from the beginning and I thought it was causing the problems. Now I don't know. I have pH strips that I've checked the run off with and its about 6.5-7 pH. The soil I used I made up myself, 2 parts perlite, 1 part verm, 6 part potting soil.
The fertilizer I've been using is Higrow Superior Blend Grow (http://www.higrow.com/groblomabsuper.htm), and usually fertilizing about once a week at 1/2 strength.

Thanks for the help guys, off to go try to Kratom today

 

[Blackvelvet]

Your using 2 ml per liter a and b grow? That gives you about this:

n 100
k 160
ca 76
mg 22

Your magnesium is low. You should raise it to 38. Add 1/8 teaspoon epsom salts per 3.8 liters (1 gallon) along with the regular ferts. Don't foliar spray. Apply the fertilizer water everytime you water. Its weak enough. Make sure you get quite a bit of runoff out the bottom of the container. Ph is high. Adjust your fertilizer water ph to about 6 before applying. Vinegar makes a safe and cheap ph down if needed.

Ok, so the fert water is fixed. If you use tap or spring water containing calcium and/or magnesium, its going to throw off the balance and erratic results will happen. Get some distilled water. Nothings too good for your babies, right?

One last note: According to your fert label, it has almost no phosphorus. So little plants would not even grow. I hope this is a misprint. Has to be.

Happy growing!

 

[indole]

Thanks for the quick reply. I'll go out today and pick up some distilled water and possibly another fertilizer that has P and give that a shot.

 

[Blackvelvet]

Your fertilizer looks great with that little bit of epsom added. Keep using it. I am sure the p thing is a misprint. It should probably read .9% not .009% See what your bottle says. Errors on fert labels are not uncommon.

On a humorous note...

This formula has been tried and testing for 3 years and by purchasing a fertilizer that has been developed recently you will be assured that your fertilizer contains all the latest technological and biochemical breakthroughs within the recent years. This formula will ensure success in not just hydroponics or aeroponics, but also in soil cultivation, which is gaining popularity. This formula is also revaluated every 12 months and if there is new technology available we will tweak the formulation to ensure that your crop is receiving the most advanced product available.

I guess we did the tweaking.

.

 

[indole]

Looking at the label on the bottle says the same too. I'll keep using it and just add some epsom salts to it as suggested, and I'll send an e-mail off to the manufacturer to verify what P content is in it.

Thanks for all the help guys

edit: looking at the label again, it says it contains 10% soluble potash. Isn't potash a source of P?

edit2: lol, nm. Keep messing up the element symbols and all that, its K ;p. Lil' stoned off the kratom still

 

[Charles Xavier]

Greetings indole

First, allow me to congratulate you on your decision to cultivate. You've embarked upon an exciting and inspiring journey...its destination: rewarding in various aspects. However, like all journeys one must be wary of being led astray and careful in choosing which paths to explore.

Concerning the plants (directly and simply):
The bottom leaves are turning yellow because it's the time (as dictated by the plants genetic code) for these leaves to die. You are describing a natural process that all seedlings undergo before they enter into the vegetative stage.

The application of nutrients (increased concentration or availability) cannot reverse this process; it can delay its onset but this is not recommended because it invariably disrupts the plants hormonal curve and the initiate cultivator often lacks the experiential skill to compensate...this results in over fertilization ('nutrient burn') and the retardation of growth.

The 'leaf curl' (as evidenced by the images) is the result of the combination of temperature and over fertilization. Ensure proper air circulation and ventilation (Carbon Dioxide availability) and refrain from fertilizing for at least 10 days. Based on the images you do not currently have a medium pH that is out of specification.

Plants have an efficient method of shuttling nutrients (xylems and phloems); therefore, lower leaves do not yellow as a result of being in indirect light. Yellowing is dictated by senescence or nutrient imbalance. The light currently in use is adequate for the space being illuminated.

The plant is currently quite well fertilized (particularly Nitrogen)...though foliar application of fertilizer possesses its own merits, in this specific instance and at this time, at best that method (foliar) would be a redundancy; at worst, a detriment...if temperature and ventilation are not addressed.

The burnt tip on the leaves is another indicator of over fertilization. The plant is not Magnesium deficient; the plant does not display any of the primary indicators for this type of deficiency. Also a seedling that is Magnesium deficient is extremely rare. One would have to actively create the conditions for this deficiency to manifest. I applaud your efforts with the utilization of Epsom Salts, however, this too is currently unnecessary.

It has been my steadfast recommendation that for the initiate cultivator: unless there is demonstrable unsuitability, tap water (with its inherent stability) is a better choice for gardens. 'Spring water' or reverse osmosis filtration, based on the information disclosed, is not necessary.

At 16 days old, it is too early to determine the need for a Calcium/Magnesium supplement. The plant has to be in the vegetative or flowering stages before those needs can be accurately assessed. At this point assume that tap water is an ally.

It is vitally important to accurately observe your plant. The pH strips indicate a pH range between 6.5 and 7.0. This could be considered high...but the plant does not corroborate. Observation will reveal if (future) changes need be made.

Once again: The plant is not Magnesium deficient; the plant is slightly over fertilized.

Consider employing another nutrient regimen. At the moment the current fertilizer suffices, but there are better choices (both in terms of nutrient profile and ease of use) available. General Hydroponics' FloraNova series is highly recommended; however, because it possesses a relatively high concentration of nutrients, quarter strength application (at least initially) is to be adhered to.

There is a Human tendency to make things complicated; a psychological need to problem solve. The best advice I can give is for now...do nothing. Water the plant (plain tap water) when appropriate and observe it daily. And be assured that you are still on the right path and the destination is worth it.

Sincerely,
Charles.

p.s. This post is only my informed opinion and is entirely in no way meant to slight, discredit or undermine the opinions of others. The post is not intended to dictate or condescend, but rather to share information in a straightforward manner. If any member of this community (thread participant or reader) is offended by my perceived tone or post content....then a public apology is being offered, here and now. In respect to indole, if this apology is not sufficient, then I humbly request a discussion in private.

C.X.

 

[Blackvelvet]

Once again: The plant is not Magnesium deficient; the plant is slightly over fertilized.

Gosh Charles. That was alot of typing. He was using a 3.45:1 ratio of calcium to magnesium and alot of potassium = magnesium deficiency. Adding the suggested rate of epsom salts to the regular ferts raises the ratio to 2:1 ca to mg. 100 ppm nitrogen is weak. So, not overfertilized. He should apply this with every watering with runoff.

 

[Charles Xavier]

Greetings Blackvelvet.

At 16 days old, it is too early to determine the need for a Calcium/Magnesium supplement. The plant has to be in the vegetative or flowering stages before those needs can be accurately assessed....Charles Xavier

At this stage of the plant's lifecycle, Magnesium assimilation and utilization is quite low. The ratio quoted is at this stage, immaterial.

(Certainly there is a correlation between Potassium and Magnesium uptake... but to state that abundant Potassium availability is equal to a Magnesium deficiency, is erroneous)

The plant is not Magnesium deficient; the plant does not display any of the primary indicators for this type of deficiency. Also a seedling that is Magnesium deficient is extremely rare. One would have to actively create the conditions for this deficiency to manifest....Charles Xavier

The addition of Epsom salts will only increase the overall ppm of the nutrient solution, thereby, compounding the plant's poor transpiration (already evidenced by the leaf curl) if added to the growing medium.

Given that the plant in question is 16 days old and displays 'Sativa' influence in leaf structure...100 ppm Nitrogen is the opposite of what you suggest it is. The images provided, support this postulation.

Watering to runoff is a sensible way to water, but the 'constant fertilization method' of cultivation is better suited towards the moderate to experienced cultivator.

Ego has no place, where advice is being dispensed. Let us attain this degree of perspective: My advice, even if I am wrong (and I am being diplomatic), if implemented will not be of detriment to the plant.

Sincerely,
Charles.

p.s. To all: It is my hope that the self quotes are not construed as laziness or hubris. I feel that they are both clear and topical, and are therefore, useful in trying to illustrate my points in response.

p.p.s.

...That was alot of typing....Blackvelvet

It most assuredly was...and as a 'two-fingered' typist, it should be noted that every detailed post I make is at the expense of my time. That I find...is eloquent testament of my commitment to this community. Don't call that into question. Don't waste my time.

C.X.

 

[f0urtwenty]

I will follow Dr. Xavier's lead and also advise to use tap water and watch your plant closely. I would stop with the nutes for now, and watch for any negative changes. The plants may have an issue, but wait for more tale tell signs. At the moment I believe you are more likely to make an incorrect diagnosis and adversely affect your plants. Give it a couple days and bump this thread if the plants don't improve.

 

[Blackvelvet]

Bad labels?

Bad labels?

I took a look at the bloom formulation on the website you gave a link to. They have magnesium at 6% and calcium at 4.6% You will see calcium deficiency if this is right. Just can't be. I think you should definately send them an email and get the % of all the elements.

 

[Growdoc]

I just went and took some pictures of the leafs curling upwards and some of the tips turning yellow so maybe you guys can confirm its Mg or maybe its something else?







I've been using tap water from the beginning and I thought it was causing the problems. Now I don't know. I have pH strips that I've checked the run off with and its about 6.5-7 pH. The soil I used I made up myself, 2 parts perlite, 1 part verm, 6 part potting soil.
The fertilizer I've been using is Higrow Superior Blend Grow (http://www.higrow.com/groblomabsuper.htm), and usually fertilizing about once a week at 1/2 strength.

Thanks for the help guys, off to go try to Kratom today

This is overferting at a moderate level, I have to agree with Charles Xavier and the information that was given. Keep on useing tap water !

GrowDoc

 

[indole]

Ok, I just installed a second fan that blows fresh air in so hopefully that fixes my ventilation problem. I'll just use tap water for now to see if there's an improvement and I'll post updates if anything changes.

Thanks for the help

Peace