Bokashi questions

[ScrubNinja]

I noticed today that they sell bokashi buckets in the hardware store and I was thinking about getting one or maybe making my own. Beside it on the rack were bags of bokashi bran from the same company that made the bucket and the instructions were to add a bit of scraps etc every day and use a fine sprinkle of the bran on top.

I've searched on here and everyone is talking about this EM1 stuff. Is the bokashi bran in the packets pretreated with EM1 so I don't have to buy it seperately? Is the juice that I hope to get out of it the same thing as EM1? Are EM1 and EM the same thing or does the "1" designate something important? Thanks.

 

[maryjohn]

the bokashi bran is pretreated. you can make your own much cheaper, but that's the stuff.

Glad to see you have such wide adoption of this method.

remember - you don't get black compost at the end. It still has to be processed from there, but that is quick and easy. Most people just bury.

 

[ScrubNinja]

Awesome thanks mj. I thought the juice was "it"? So would a worm farm be a suitable place to use the solid material? I was thinking about getting one of those too since I can't find worm castings. I don't have a compost heap at the moment.

 

[ganja din]

Hey ninja, (I love you pic! And your quote)

Wait, what do you mean by "juice"? Are you referring to the liquid that comes out of the bucket? You want to discard that liquid. It probably will have microbes so toss it on your lawn, etc. I wouldn't apply to cannabis. And if you buy EM "mother culture" I suggest SCD-World "EM Plus", then extend (ferment) the EM into AEM (Activated Effective Microorganisms).

Although, I get as good fermentation results using homemade LAB which I use to make bokashi inoculum (ie. The bag of bran you mentioned). All told, making you own bokashi (not with EM), all you need is molasses, rice, skim milk, water, wheat bran, trash bags and container to make "LAB serum" which you ferment into "LAB pure culture". Jaykushk's great thread on LAB will tell you what to do. Then simply use what you made ("LAB pure culture") to make bokashi as so = 1:1:20 (LAB or AEM:molasses:water) and mix it really well with the bran to about 50-55% moisture content. the easy way to test moisture content is to squeeze a hand full of it. It should be moist and form into a ball when squeezed, no water should drip when you squeeze it; that's about the correct % moisture content. Put that mix into a thick black trash bag (a couple of bags is better than a single one) and remove as much air as possible, then place something heavy on the top to help keep it anaerobic. Wait a month and open up. The bran should not look any different, you should see no organisms like fungi. It should smell pickled, strongly!

Fresh bokashi inoculum is far better than that commercial bagged kind IMO.

HTH

 

[maryjohn]

Hey ninja, the liquid is great for drains that get smelly or plugged up, according to the EM people.

 

[ScrubNinja]

Hey thanks guys, I think I understand this now, or enough to process what I'm reading! I still have to look up all the benefits for growing because strangely enough, it was the use with drains that was the main appeal, I just figured the juice was good for plants somehow too, lol. But yes ganja, that was the juice I meant, or thought I meant until I realised it was what I meant or something.

I'll keep reading, thanks again.

 

[ScrubNinja]

Alright so I'm back again. I found a great link that breaks the whole thing down, easy to understand now I got over the bran thing. I'm just wondering about what you said Ganja, about not applying the liquid to my plants.

Bokashi Juice contains nutrients from the food waste and is alive with Effective Micro-organisms (EM) and makes a terrific fertiliser. To fertilise an existing garden or pot plants use 1 teaspoon to 2-3 litres of water and apply directly to the soil. For trees and shrubs use 2 teaspoons to 2-3 litres of water. Do not apply directly to foliage.

So I'm just wondering if I was succesful in bokashing the bokashi, and there was no mould etc, I would probably be okay to give it to my herb, right? I mean, I'm a total noob here so bare with me please but it also seems to me like the juice I would get is the same LAB stuff that you went through all that process to make? Couldn't bokashi juice simply be added to bran and fermented to get bokashi bran?

 

[maryjohn]

Hey scrub,

You want to ferment bran with a clean mother culture, not trash juice. But technically you are right. I use the trash juice on my worms, plants, and drains so far. But I only use a fresh culture for ingesting or cleaning purposes (it's great for countertops).

 

[maryjohn]

On second thought, that was reflexive. For bran the trash juice should work fine. Not like you are going to eat it.

 

[ganja din]

Hey ninja,

IMO all EM sites (especially EMRO and affiliates) are loaded with BS and psudo-science. Below I attempt to debunk some claims (@ MJ, none of this is ment to reference your posts). Also, I would highly suggest SCD-World "EM Plus" mother culture, not EMRO "EM-1" from Dr. Higa. Get this for your mother culture if your going to make your own AEM:
http://www.scdprobiotics.com/product_p/a152-1.htm

That liquid is not safe to add to plants IMO. I don't see much use for it. Definilty don't use it to make bokashi inoculum (bran). The 'drain' claim I think is BS. EM are not aerobic, yet a drain is. That liquid ("leachate") can be phytotoxic and is 'garbage'. Its mostly water (with little nutrients) from the food placed in the bin. IMO its not a fertilizer, its mostly just water with some EM microbes and nutrients (possibly)...IMO its nothing special or particularly useful, unlike vermicast leachate which is useful (most of the time).

The key is bokashi has much fewer active EM microbes, mostly LAB and yeast be active. So the leachate from bokashi bin will not have the complete EM microbial profile. AEM (Activated Effective Microorganisms) or LAB is what you need to use to create bokashi inoculum (bran). One bottle of EM mother culture is only about 30 dollars, but can be extended to many gallons of AEM which is even further diluted into drench water, thus one bottle of EM mother culture lasts a long time. Application of AEM to media should not happen overly often, maybe once every two weeks or so.

I suggest against add the bokashi inoculum (bran) directly to media, use it to anaerobically ferment foodstuffs. After the foodstuffs are fermented (ex. In bokashi bin) it needs to be further processed (ex. vermiculture) or decompose (ex. compost) the bokashi fermented foodstuffs (aka "bokashi OM").

To use EM with plants you should "extend" (ferment) the EM Plus "mother culture" into AEM. Then dilute the AEM into water (eg. 1:250) and apply that to media. The bokashi inoculum has far fewer 'active' microbes (ie. PnSB, Bacillus spp., etc) than AEM...that is why just using LAB to make bokashi inoculum is the best option IMO.

Please do not drink, or offer pets the AEM you ferment! Only experienced AEM folks should ferment for probiotics. The pH *needs* to be 3.3 or below for at least a couple of weeks to be considered 'safe'. And if your going to make probiotics then you should to use a special food-grade EM mother culture. SCD-World is the only source for food grade EM mother culture. One can also buy pre-fermented food grade mother culture ready to drink, but I would test the pH first! Here's the link for food grade EM mother culture:
http://www.scdprobiotics.com/product_p/a112-1.htm

All in all, I think EM companies are kind of snake oil salesmen. AEM is good for horticulture, probiotics (human and agricultural), fermention/storage of organic matter, compost/vermicast feedstocks, bioremedation, etc. But as you see IMO the uses are pretty similar. I don't agree with the more mystical and ethereal claims about EM, especially those made by Dr. Higa. And I don't think it should be termed "EM Technology" as Dr. Higa calls it. EM is not the 'second coming', although most EM companies and enthusiasts believe otherwise...



Here are two great resources by two of the top English EM enthusiasts:

1. Vinny Pinto "introduction to EM"
http://eminfo.vmicrobial.info/index.html

2. Steve Divers "EM Resource List":
(Also about IMO, BIM, etc, including much about Gil's company)
Http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/...sttea+soilfoodweb+soilquality/5/msg00138.html



Here's IMO the best way to ferment EM into AEM.

I suggest you use my method, not those suggested by Vinny Pinto:

1) Ferment in a container with a small (width) mouth. I ferment AEM in gallon jugs. Make sure water is chlorine and chloramine free!

2) Place a aquarium heater in the AEM water mix. Make sure you don't get a kind with auto-shutoff at a certain temp. I use the cheapest ones from Walmart which are for upto 5 gallon tank. Place the heater in the water, with the same heater I use it will keep ~0.9 gallon of water at ~90F all the time. That is good. The microbes are "mesophelic", that is they prefer temps around 100-135F (there abouts). Thus by heating the water you are proving the LAB and PnSB and yeast, etc, the perfect temp, they will reproduce a lot faster.

3) place a 60-100 watt incandescent light bulb (but red LED is better) about 5-10" from the gallon jug. Leave it on 24/7. This feeds the PnSB and helps the PnSB reproduce, otherwise you will have a lot of LAB and yeast with fewer PnSB. The goal is 700-1100 nanometers (wavelengths), or below 3000 Kelvin at 500-1,000 lux. (let me check my notes re: lux. But the spectrum is correct)

Many people buy a cheap styrofoam cooler for use as an incubator. They use the ligh bulb as a source of heat and photons. If you use this method you don't need the fish tank heater.

4) Add a bit of hydrolyzed fish, this feeds the PnSB.

5) I like to use this ratio of EM Mother Culture : unsulferated black strap molasses : water = 1:0.8:16. *However*, for nOObs I would suggest the traditional 1:1:20.

6) To keep your mix anaerobic as you can pour a layer of mineral oil over the water, so it forms a layer of about 0.5-1 inch thick. This prevent gasses from entering the mix, but allows gasses to exit the mix. This step is important, imo, because I find it lowers the amount of 'yeast' buildup on the solution surface.

7) When 'using' the AEM, buy a cheap air-hose, the kind for a aquarium air-pump, I think it's 1/4". Then siphon out the AEM (after a bit of mixing with the hose) into a container. Try to keep the down-end of the hose right against the bottom of the receiving container. Once the AEM starts to fill the container place the down-end of the hose under the AEM so less oxygen is mixed. (if you have ever siphoned gas from a car you know what to do )

8) Usage: I like to use AEM at the following ratios (AEM : water) = 1:50 to 1:100.

Most people like to use AEM at 1:100, 1:500, 1:1000, etc

@ MJ,

I have always though that was BS. Do you have success cleaning counters with AEM? It has molasses (at least), so I don't understand why the EM companies would suggest it, its bound to attract other microbes...?

Later

 

[ganja din]

Hey MJ,

I find using AEM to ferment wheat bran into bokashi inoculum is better than using the much less active EM mother culture. And much less expensive than using EM mother culture.

HTH

 

[maryjohn]

Yes ganja it works GREAT on counters and that old kitchen grease from the air that winds up on things not stored in cupboards. I just used it to rescue a Dutch oven. There is no sugar left after fermentation unless you halt it by chilling or adding alcohol. That's from wine making.

As for only using aem to make bokashi, what's the point? The LAB are good enough. The juice from the bins is teeming with life, and my nose tells me it's LAB and lots of yeast. I heavily compress the material in my bucket, so it's quite anaerobic with am aerobic crust. Never had spoilage.

I use aem for mouth wash, no probs. Brewing a long batch with grape juice from vinny pintos recipe. Should be ready by January.

And scrub is down under. Do they have scd?

 

[ScrubNinja]

Man thanks a lot guys, that was epic! I came across Vinny's site, it's very good. I hope it doesn't seem like I'm ignoring your advice Ganja, but I've really got sick of trying to order specialist stuff like this from overseas. I did find a local supply of regular stuff so I think just to get a feel for if I like the whole idea, I'll get some locally. They have these two products available:

EM-1 1 Litre
EM-1 is a mixture of effective micro-organisms, mainly Yeast, Lactobacillus, Phototrophic Bacteria, Actinomycetes and a range of other beneficial cultures.

Starter Culture 1 Litre

Starter Culture is a naturally fermented concentrate of EM-1 and special micro-organisms that help with decomposition of oils and cellulose.

So am I right in thinking if I just want to innoculate my own bran I should get the EM-1, and if I wanted to extend my own AEM/LAB I should get the starter culture? Otherwise what is the purpose of the starter culture? I'm actually a micro grower so I'm thinking it would be cheap enough and much less complicated to just buy the em-1 and make my own bran. Am I on the right track here?

 

[maryjohn]

Ganja, forgot to mention the product rid-x works for drains and septic tanks just like em. That claim does not seem bogus to me, although your claim that there can be no anaerobic fermentation absent a vaccum seems off. I've had a worm bin go anaerobic.

Drano also sells an enzymatic drain product that is meant to be preventive. Nothing outlandish there.

Scrub just get em-1. It does it all.

 

[ganja din]

Hey ninja,

SCD-World is in Washington, USA. Its better then EMRO and escpecially that bottle you found. I assume that bottle of mother culture is old, unless it flies off the shelf (which I doubt). SCD-World has extra PnSB and Bacillus spp., its better for horticulture IMO. SCD-World has high stock turn over.

I would use the "starter culture" for bokashi inoculum. Once mixed with water and molasses when making bokashi inoculum some microbes will become active. Using old EM-1 is not suggested.

Using most AEM (ex. EM-1) after a few weeks to a month or so its not suggested.

EM-1 is AEM. But please realize AEM is only 'good' for a few weeks to a month or so, max. So that EM-w will be much less active and effective the AEM you ferment. And yes "starter culture" is "mother culture", except starter culture is not the correct term.

Also, if you follow my method your AEM will be superior to that of EM-1. Not only because its fresh, but will have much more active and higher populations of PnSB which is one of the two most important microbes in EM.

Nothing I suggest in my how-to can't be found locally, except for ordering EM Plus. Hydrolyzed fish is from hydro shop, and is helpful to culture high numbers of PnSB. Other items are from walmart.

EM-1 is fermented in dark tanks, yet PnSB are photosynthetic bacteria...! (Tho I think they can use Co2 in the dark as food)

I won't try further to convince you, just see my above comments. EM-1 is nothing I would ever use. Vinny Pinto only uses SCD-World EM (I believe).

What I've laid out is the best method by far, IMO. In regards well researched, accurate and non-monetarally motivated EM info trust microbeman, vinny pinto, steve diver and me...not EM companies (just my 2 cents).

HTH

 

[ganja din]

Hey mj,

Those products are enzymes, I believe, which will 'dissolve' away organic matter blockages in a drain. Many of those enzymes are taken from fungi I assume.

The PnSB in EM are the microbes who would 'eat' and 'dissolve' away organic matter blockages in a drain. They are the bacteria in EM which offer most bioremedation benefits of EM. LAB would ferment which isn't helpful in this situation.

There will be very few active (if any) PnSB in bokashi bin leachate. PnSB need light to feed and multiply, they are "obligate phototrophs"**. That means there should be no PnSB activity in bokashi bins. They need light to feed and reproduce. This is why I suggest using homemaid LAB to make bokashi inoculum.

Thus, because PnSB should have no activity in bokashi inoculum, or the bokashi bin itself, the bokashi bin leachate should also be devoid of active PnSB. Thus applying the leachate to a drain is useless IMO. Especially considering drains are dark. The enzymes present in bokashi bin leachate should not be the kind which could effectively 'dissolve' away organic matter from a drain.

And on the oxygen issue, PnSB are quite strongly faculatative anaerobic. That being true means exposure to oxygen in the drain would lower the remediation effects of PnSB (if they were actually active in the first place).

Do you guys now see why I claim EM companies are like snake oil salesmen and rely upon pseudo-to completely false-science?

** I have read references to the ability of PnSB to feed without light when consuming carbon dioxide. I am not sure that really happens though. Also, PnSB can get energy (in lue of food and light) from the warmth of soil. Neat huh? . Because PnSB can possibly feed (Co2) and get energy (warmth from soil) in the dark I propose they should be considered "faculatative phototrophs", not "obligate".





@ ninja

I have doubts there are still "actinobacteria" (the real name of "actinomycetes") in EM-1, from EMRO-America. Give me a few minutes to check.

HTH

 

[maryjohn]

Hey MJ,

I find using AEM to ferment wheat bran into bokashi inoculum is better than using the much less active EM mother culture. And much less expensive than using EM mother culture.

HTH

I was unclear. I am cheap, and would never use em without activating it. Sorry to misinform.

I do have a friend using aem for his drains. I'll see if it's working. I told him it wouldn't work so he can't be disappointed.

 

[ScrubNinja]

At the hardware store they seem to push the drain-cleaning aspect. Thanks both, and Ganja, I appreciate the firm stance, for sure. I have friends I've tried to push into better gardening instead of just filling a pot with dirt and they always have their crazy ideas which they think will work and never listen to me, so I don't wanna be like that, haha.

Next job is to research making my own bucket. I was thinking about the whole drain system and what Ganj said, perhaps down at that level all the oxygen has been (or hopefully is) displaced? That's just my newby first thought.

 

[White Grape]

At the hardware store they seem to push the drain-cleaning aspect. Thanks both, and Ganja, I appreciate the firm stance, for sure. I have friends I've tried to push into better gardening instead of just filling a pot with dirt and they always have their crazy ideas which they think will work and never listen to me, so I don't wanna be like that, haha.

Next job is to research making my own bucket. I was thinking about the whole drain system and what Ganj said, perhaps down at that level all the oxygen has been (or hopefully is) displaced? That's just my newby first thought.

Not a great pic, but here are 2 Bokashi bins I made from cat litter pails.
I took the lid off one 20 lb. pail, then drilled small holes on the bottom of a 30 lb. pail with the lid on.
From there I just placed the 30 in the 20 and instant Bokashi bin.
In the pic I have 2 bins one resting on top of the other.
The top one I'm using, the bottom is fermenting.

 

[maryjohn]

Two five gallon paint buckets and some holes. You can even put on a spigot.

But I warn you, chicks will not dig it.