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Blue Star OG pheno hunt, PPK style
- Thread starter greyfader
- Start date
greyfader
Well-known member
i thought i would discuss the seeds a little bit first. Josh sent me 50 and i began germinating on feb 26.
48 germinated within 2 days for a 96% germ rate.
i took the first 36 to grow 1/2" tails in sets of 12 as they reached 1/2".
i planted them into wick-fed solo cups and grew them out for about 2.5 weeks, culling for vigor.
at the end of this period, i transplanted 14 of the best into 2.5 quart containers, also wick fed.
after about 2.5 weeks 12 were transplanted into these 4 gal totes.
perlite is the medium.
48 germinated within 2 days for a 96% germ rate.
i took the first 36 to grow 1/2" tails in sets of 12 as they reached 1/2".
i planted them into wick-fed solo cups and grew them out for about 2.5 weeks, culling for vigor.
at the end of this period, i transplanted 14 of the best into 2.5 quart containers, also wick fed.
after about 2.5 weeks 12 were transplanted into these 4 gal totes.
perlite is the medium.
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greyfader
Well-known member
greyfader
Well-known member
.
just a little pictorial showing how the system is made. the float valve controls the water level.
the surface of the medium is 13" above the floor.
the support containers below each plant are 7" high. the solution level is 3".
this leaves a 4" "air gap between the bottom of the plant container and the solution.
the tube protruding into the solution is 6" long and the bottom 2" of it stays wet allowing capillary rise to feed the plant from below.
this represents a 24/7 hydraulic hook-up between the plant and nutrient solution.
the top watering apparatus is timed by a repeat cycle timer to fire the 700 gph pumps (one in each pool) on a schedule. right now they are getting about a quart in 20 seconds every 2 hours.
there exists in every plant container, immediately after a watering event, a perched water table.
this is a body of water held up by the medium against the force of gravity. this PWT can only be eliminated by transpiration and evaporation.
this is because of waters cohesion and adhesion. cohesion is waters attraction to itself and adhesion is waters attraction to other substances.
this is why you cannot water a conventional container 12 times a day. the plant will drown if you do not allow it to use up the solution in the bottom of the container.
the PPK device positively drains the PWT from the medium immediately after each pulsed delivery of solution.
this is because the perched water table is moved from the plant container down into the tailpiece tube.
the perched water table exists at the same height in any shape container. it is a function of particle size. most plant growing media will support a perched water table. the finer the particle size the greater the volume of the PWT.
so by moving the PWT from the main plant container down into the capillary rise, drainage tube we radically reduce the volume of the PWT. it will still exist but it is greatly reduced in volume.
this, in turn, keeps most of the roots out of the saturated zone.
the medium here is chunky perlite which is loaded first. this material and sizing makes an extremely aerated media structure that has an air-filled capacity of about 30-35%.
i then add 1 lb worm castings and 1/2 cup of diatomaceous earth and work them into the top 2". this adds a substantial CEC or cation exchange capacity and retains more moisture in the top of the medium.
oxygen is the turbocharger in this system. the roots sit in an ideal medium for growth.
the root zone is an interface of roots, water, air, and nutrients. this device keeps the ideal balance between these elements of the rhizosphere.
this system is a closed loop, recirculating system.
i do not remove any solution from the system during a grow. it is all input only.
in this system the nutrient solution could be completely anaerobic and the plant will still grow just fine.
this is because the plant is deriving it’s oxygen from the ambient air instead of water.
two theoretical identical containers, one full of water and one full of air, both at sea level at 68f.
the container with air will have 23,300 times more free oxygen molecules than the water filled one at maximum saturation.
the act of watering stimulates plant growth by removing old, depleted gas by displacement and drawing in new fresh gas as the solution drains from the container.
we have found that this combination of a 24/7 sub-irrigation with a timed, quantified, pulsed delivery of solution from the top keeps the medium in an ideal band of parameters for a longer period of time than traditional containers.
this device, used in this fashion, has a synergistic effect on plant growth.
it is also extremely redundant with almost no failure points. if the electricity goes off the plant will simply back-feed from the reservoir and will grow just fine.
it will not produce as large of a plant if operated passively only but it will be a beautiful, healthy plant anyway.
this device allows the operator to fine tune the moisture content in the medium using three tools.
first, the extent of the capillary rise can be controlled by the float valve. By raising or lowering the solution under the plant you can control the capillary rise and therefore the moisture distribution curve which is set by gravity, drier at the top and wetter at the bottom.
second, using the repeat cycle timer, you can adjust the duration and therefore volume of the pulsed top watering event.
third, again using the timer, you can adjust the interval between watering events.
by observing the plant and adjusting these 3 tools you can keep the root zone in an ideal state.
this device eliminates ph swings caused by nutrient buildup because the root zone is never allowed to dry down and the microscopic movement of solution ensures that diffusion is always working.
well, that’s enough for now.
just a little pictorial showing how the system is made. the float valve controls the water level.
the surface of the medium is 13" above the floor.
the support containers below each plant are 7" high. the solution level is 3".
this leaves a 4" "air gap between the bottom of the plant container and the solution.
the tube protruding into the solution is 6" long and the bottom 2" of it stays wet allowing capillary rise to feed the plant from below.
this represents a 24/7 hydraulic hook-up between the plant and nutrient solution.
the top watering apparatus is timed by a repeat cycle timer to fire the 700 gph pumps (one in each pool) on a schedule. right now they are getting about a quart in 20 seconds every 2 hours.
there exists in every plant container, immediately after a watering event, a perched water table.
this is a body of water held up by the medium against the force of gravity. this PWT can only be eliminated by transpiration and evaporation.
this is because of waters cohesion and adhesion. cohesion is waters attraction to itself and adhesion is waters attraction to other substances.
this is why you cannot water a conventional container 12 times a day. the plant will drown if you do not allow it to use up the solution in the bottom of the container.
the PPK device positively drains the PWT from the medium immediately after each pulsed delivery of solution.
this is because the perched water table is moved from the plant container down into the tailpiece tube.
the perched water table exists at the same height in any shape container. it is a function of particle size. most plant growing media will support a perched water table. the finer the particle size the greater the volume of the PWT.
so by moving the PWT from the main plant container down into the capillary rise, drainage tube we radically reduce the volume of the PWT. it will still exist but it is greatly reduced in volume.
this, in turn, keeps most of the roots out of the saturated zone.
the medium here is chunky perlite which is loaded first. this material and sizing makes an extremely aerated media structure that has an air-filled capacity of about 30-35%.
i then add 1 lb worm castings and 1/2 cup of diatomaceous earth and work them into the top 2". this adds a substantial CEC or cation exchange capacity and retains more moisture in the top of the medium.
oxygen is the turbocharger in this system. the roots sit in an ideal medium for growth.
the root zone is an interface of roots, water, air, and nutrients. this device keeps the ideal balance between these elements of the rhizosphere.
this system is a closed loop, recirculating system.
i do not remove any solution from the system during a grow. it is all input only.
in this system the nutrient solution could be completely anaerobic and the plant will still grow just fine.
this is because the plant is deriving it’s oxygen from the ambient air instead of water.
two theoretical identical containers, one full of water and one full of air, both at sea level at 68f.
the container with air will have 23,300 times more free oxygen molecules than the water filled one at maximum saturation.
the act of watering stimulates plant growth by removing old, depleted gas by displacement and drawing in new fresh gas as the solution drains from the container.
we have found that this combination of a 24/7 sub-irrigation with a timed, quantified, pulsed delivery of solution from the top keeps the medium in an ideal band of parameters for a longer period of time than traditional containers.
this device, used in this fashion, has a synergistic effect on plant growth.
it is also extremely redundant with almost no failure points. if the electricity goes off the plant will simply back-feed from the reservoir and will grow just fine.
it will not produce as large of a plant if operated passively only but it will be a beautiful, healthy plant anyway.
this device allows the operator to fine tune the moisture content in the medium using three tools.
first, the extent of the capillary rise can be controlled by the float valve. By raising or lowering the solution under the plant you can control the capillary rise and therefore the moisture distribution curve which is set by gravity, drier at the top and wetter at the bottom.
second, using the repeat cycle timer, you can adjust the duration and therefore volume of the pulsed top watering event.
third, again using the timer, you can adjust the interval between watering events.
by observing the plant and adjusting these 3 tools you can keep the root zone in an ideal state.
this device eliminates ph swings caused by nutrient buildup because the root zone is never allowed to dry down and the microscopic movement of solution ensures that diffusion is always working.
well, that’s enough for now.
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Following along. Josh blessed me with a few packs of these so I’ll be curious to see them in action.
greyfader
Well-known member
have you started any of them yet?
I have not.
I got female seedlings from three different seed pops backed up and needing to get run thru flower so no more popping for me for a while.
Firstly, I hope your spine is being kind.
I thought I’d give an update on my PPK experience, which you may be interested in.
I built a 16 plant site following, as close as I could, your instructions on the “wicked” thread. The build was simple and a few minor water leaks and pump failures were easily dealt with.
So far:
16 plants have provided the same amount of canopy as 20 normally would, with at least a week’s less veg time.
The stalks on the plants are the thickest I’ve ever experienced.
3 weeks into flower and I estimate I have at least 50% more biomass than usual at this point, which has caught me somewhat off-guard, and the plants look healthy and happy.
I realise that the race is only half run, but if what’s happened so far is anything to go by the results are going to be very impressive.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
I thought I’d give an update on my PPK experience, which you may be interested in.
I built a 16 plant site following, as close as I could, your instructions on the “wicked” thread. The build was simple and a few minor water leaks and pump failures were easily dealt with.
So far:
16 plants have provided the same amount of canopy as 20 normally would, with at least a week’s less veg time.
The stalks on the plants are the thickest I’ve ever experienced.
3 weeks into flower and I estimate I have at least 50% more biomass than usual at this point, which has caught me somewhat off-guard, and the plants look healthy and happy.
I realise that the race is only half run, but if what’s happened so far is anything to go by the results are going to be very impressive.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
greyfader
Well-known member
you are most welcome, alpha666!
i get my kicks on route 666!
most people using this system have the "controlling growth" problem. everyone tends to overgrow their spaces. i am notorious for waiting too long to flip and then having to fight them with a katana.
right now these are under 1008 watts of 5000k walmart bulbs over each pool. i've set the distance so that the tops are reading from about 850 to 1000 umols. so, between 36.72 and 43.2 moles of direct light over each plant.
i'm running 12 hours over each pool and flipping them back and forth at 12 hr intervals.
it keeps the temps and humidity more stable.
i've taken the first set of clones and they are rooting in the same room. cleaned up the bottoms and began shaping and removal of the humongous fan leaves, from the bottom up, as they become shaded.
it's funny that you post about stem diameter today as this morning i took a couple of pics of some of these seedlings' stems this morning. these were transplanted into these 4 gal containers on the 5th so 12 days.
do you have a thread going?
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Good afternoon Mr. Fader,
beautiful looking plants, as usual.
I was fascinated and intrigued when I first saw your homemade light, are you pleased with it‘s performance? I bought some 800w bar leds from China which seem to perform ok. I’ve experimented by mounting an extra driver and bar on one of the fittings, making it 880w. If successful, I will do the same to the others. I’m also trying one of the 1000w Spider Farmer fixtures.
You asked if I had a thread going, the answer to that is no. I have never posted on any forum about anything, ever, despite viewing and reading since the Overgrow days. During the early part of this century I fell foul of the authorities and ended up in our equivalent of your super max facilities, it was a jail inside another jail, a bit like a Russian doll. Finding out I had been under surveillance for 18 months, which included the bugging of my home and vehicles and God knows what else, without realising, has had a profound effect upon my psyche. I don’t post on any social media and am very careful about most things. That episode cost me a few years and a lot of money but at the time I thought that was me gone for a long, long time.
Not everywhere is as understanding of our medical needs as perhaps they could be and when your health system is on its knees being proactive and helping yourself isn’t always looked upon favourably by the authorities.
Regards.
beautiful looking plants, as usual.
I was fascinated and intrigued when I first saw your homemade light, are you pleased with it‘s performance? I bought some 800w bar leds from China which seem to perform ok. I’ve experimented by mounting an extra driver and bar on one of the fittings, making it 880w. If successful, I will do the same to the others. I’m also trying one of the 1000w Spider Farmer fixtures.
You asked if I had a thread going, the answer to that is no. I have never posted on any forum about anything, ever, despite viewing and reading since the Overgrow days. During the early part of this century I fell foul of the authorities and ended up in our equivalent of your super max facilities, it was a jail inside another jail, a bit like a Russian doll. Finding out I had been under surveillance for 18 months, which included the bugging of my home and vehicles and God knows what else, without realising, has had a profound effect upon my psyche. I don’t post on any social media and am very careful about most things. That episode cost me a few years and a lot of money but at the time I thought that was me gone for a long, long time.
Not everywhere is as understanding of our medical needs as perhaps they could be and when your health system is on its knees being proactive and helping yourself isn’t always looked upon favourably by the authorities.
Regards.
greyfader
Well-known member
i understand, brother grower. i went to prison in the US in 1970 for cannabis sales. i turned 21 in prison as the song says.
these lights are experimental. like everyone else who has been growing for a while i used hps lights.
i think the led flowers are better quality but they don't get as large as hps flowers and i want to know why.
so far this grow has been under 5000k bulbs only. previously i have used 50/50, 60/40, 70/30 percent 5000k/2700k or 2700k/5000k.
this grow will be 5000k only until the end of week 2 of flower. this produces short, compact plants.
at the end of week 2 of flower i will switch them all out to 2700k bulbs and then i intend to add incandescents to the 2700k leds.
incandescents produce relatively large amounts of red, far-red, and infrared.
if my theory is right it should produce larger flowers.
this shows a typical phosphor coated 2700k led superimposed with a tungsten incandescent.
i found them both on the same site using the same graph so it was easy to do.
it even has some uv. i will still keep the total wattage to about 1k per fixture.
everything looks good so far, man. 
greyfader
Well-known member
glad you approve! do you think i'll make it to the end?everything looks good so far, man.
Hi
Coincidentally, my 21st was spent in a military gaol in Germany in the mid 80’s. Happy days!
I don’t recall reading anywhere that you use CO2, is this correct and if so, why?
Dr. Bugbee says the most important factor in growing is light, the more the better. (I realise you know this)
Do you believe that your yield per Watt has decreased since moving from HPS or that it’s just general bud size that is smaller, though with a better terp profile? Are you trying to increase your yield, or just bud size? Do you believe that a thousand micro moles of light from an HPS light will produce larger buds than the same amount of light from an LED? If you give the same amount of light to the plant but manipulate the spectrum to increase the bud size is there a chance that the terp profile may be affected negatively by a corresponding degree?
I admire your quest and those were a few questions that popped into my head when I started thinking about it. My instinct tells me (or maybe it was Dr. Bugbee) that hitting the plant with as much light as it can take, aided by elevated CO2 will fatten those buds up. Or maybe it’ll just increase the yield and not bud size.
Hmmm, I’ll have to think about this some more!
Regards.
greyfader
Well-known member
you have asked multiple questions that have no easy answers, so i'll try one subject at a time.
to me, co2 is not the "magical" substance that makes giant plants but rather a substance that i don't want to become deficient.
these pics show plants that were driven by high-intensity lighting.
2 are hps and one is led.
image 411019 is from my operation in oregon, sunlight supply ac/de's with philips greenpower bulbs. co2 set at 750ppm with a 50ppm deadband. by the time the injected gas reached the sensor 15 ft away the room was about 900ppm. so, this room floated between 750ppm and 900ppm.
purple mesa 1 and 2 are from the 10k sq ft cbd flower operation in tennessee. all led's and co2 was used the same way as pic 1.
sweet 1,2, and 3 are from a plant i grew in 2011 with no added co2.
all these plants were grown in a PPK device.
the first two rooms were tightly sealed and co2 injection had to be used to keep the plants from becoming deficient.
in the third set-up i used hortilux mogul socket bulbs in vertically hung cooltubes that were open on the bottom but had a fan and tube pulling the hot air out of the room. 9 lights with a 400 cfm fan on each one.
the room had a large intake connected to the main ac system for the house so there was a high volume of air turnover during the lights-on period.
you can see the flowers on the no co2 plant are still enormous.
so it's not about injecting co2 to get bigger flowers but rather making sure the plant does not become deficient in co2, one way or the other.
co2 is consumed by the plant on a per-unit basis.
the rented old farmhouse i'm in temporarily leaks air everywhere so there is no danger of a deficiency.
i prefer totally sealed rooms for a lot of reasons and my new house will have a dedicated area for growing that will be almost airtight.
so i will supplement there. right now i use a cheap amazon co2 monitor to make sure i don't go below ambient concentrations.
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Hey Bro..........I`m soooooo glad someone else has finally stepped out on that limb against the CO2 supplementation being the main reason for increased yields in sealed rooms , when in actuality as you stated that it`s more of preventing a deficiency rather than shovin 1500 ppms up their ass and EXPECTING results.......Me ?......
I ran air exchange twice per minute with lung rooms well over 20 yrs WITHOUT any CO2 supplementation other than the ppms inherent in the air we breathe , and where I lived and grew CO2 concentrations ranged in the 750 -900 range depending on the time of yr as well as the smog being produced during summer months from all the factories in the metro area surrounding my setups and locations.....and.....for the record.......
To completely dispel all the myths from my personal experience doing this shit for more yrs than I care to remember my paranoia about , pot plants eat CO2 during lights on and shit out everything they didn`t assimilate and utilize ALONG with the excess water vapor they didn`t use during lights out and THAT`s why CO2 and humidity concentrations spike during lights out in case ya`ll never figured out WHY shit goes wonky and sideways during mid to late flower if not dehueyed when the plants are drinking like a mofo for swellage ........in sealed rooms that is..........anyways......
Just wanted to pop in and show respect where it`s due . and thanks for your time D9.....Keep strokin and.....
Peace......DHF.......
I ran air exchange twice per minute with lung rooms well over 20 yrs WITHOUT any CO2 supplementation other than the ppms inherent in the air we breathe , and where I lived and grew CO2 concentrations ranged in the 750 -900 range depending on the time of yr as well as the smog being produced during summer months from all the factories in the metro area surrounding my setups and locations.....and.....for the record.......
To completely dispel all the myths from my personal experience doing this shit for more yrs than I care to remember my paranoia about , pot plants eat CO2 during lights on and shit out everything they didn`t assimilate and utilize ALONG with the excess water vapor they didn`t use during lights out and THAT`s why CO2 and humidity concentrations spike during lights out in case ya`ll never figured out WHY shit goes wonky and sideways during mid to late flower if not dehueyed when the plants are drinking like a mofo for swellage ........in sealed rooms that is..........anyways......
Just wanted to pop in and show respect where it`s due . and thanks for your time D9.....Keep strokin and.....
Peace......DHF.......
greyfader
Well-known member
hey Fred! thanks for the visit!
today is 3 weeks since the transplant from 2.5 quart containers.
just a few pics to show progress.
i have rearranged them according to height to better manage the application of light.
i have taken one set of clones and will take one more before i flip them.
i have started thinning the largest fully expanded fan leaves.
they are beautiful, trouble-free plants. very vigorous.
getting some interesting stem rubs. i'm taking notes on my impressions.
the pic of the meters shows the current reservoir conditions.
i have not removed any solution from the system, it is all input.
today is 3 weeks since the transplant from 2.5 quart containers.
just a few pics to show progress.
i have rearranged them according to height to better manage the application of light.
i have taken one set of clones and will take one more before i flip them.
i have started thinning the largest fully expanded fan leaves.
they are beautiful, trouble-free plants. very vigorous.
getting some interesting stem rubs. i'm taking notes on my impressions.
the pic of the meters shows the current reservoir conditions.
i have not removed any solution from the system, it is all input.
Attachments
