Blue light at night the controversy rages

[julkop01]

I didn't mean to be rude. Sorry about that.
Weed is my passion and I read a lot. I respect everyone who has time and opportunity to try something new and exciting and publish the results. My post count says I'm new here and don't like to write on forums but I'll try to post more in the future. Who knows, I might have something good to say someday.

When someone challenges something you say, shouldn't it motivate you to prove that someone is wrong and you are right? =) I hope you get this experiment going and we can learn from it.

 

[julkop01]

There is no way you could have read this thread enough to give even two cents worth.

I do not even see how our experiment is even remotely similar to the Alien experiment.

They did this,

For 24 hours a day, they are using:
4x 13w Red LED "bulbs", 652 nm, 5 mm LEDs, 168 LEDs per bulb
2x 25w Red incandescent "party bulbs" from GE (for Far Red light)

For the 12 hour "day" period, I'm using:
4x 13w Red/blue LED "bulbs", same as above only 83% red, 17% blue LEDs
2x 42w 2700k CFLs. (I may switch these with 6500k CFLs if I feel more blue light is necessary

We are using 430nm LED's for 10 hours in the dark period.

Nuff said

Peace

Different experiment, but the basic idea of using lights in the dark period remains.

The basic PAD concept is that light spectrums above 520nm do not trigger Blue sensitive photoreceptors. It still keeps the photosynthesis going but the plant thinks it's night time and doesn't stop flowering.

When plant recieves blue light, it thinks it's daytime. When blue light ends, it's night time. Red and far red lights keep the photosynthesis going but the plant thinks it's night time. There is blue light even in your hps-bulbs. Plant needs less than 10W / m2 of blue light to think it's a day.

Put blue light on during your 12 hours of flowering darkness and the plant starts to re-veg in a few days. Put 630nm 660nm on during your flowering darkness and the plants continue to flower.

So using blue at night time keeps the plant in veg and kinda converts that night into a day so your experiment is basically 22/2 light schdule with changing the light spectrum from red to blue in the middle of the day period. But what it does to the plant (does it grow better? stronger? what?) is totally up to you to document.


There are few things about the PAD concept that should help people who are thinking about using lights in the "dark period" and how they can be used:

Example: 15 hours of light - followed by 2 hours of far red - followed by 7 hours of total darkness. That 2 hours of far red light is recognized as darkness to the plants senses and it causes the plants timer to run slower while providing Red as a Photosynthesis source.

This has to do with Pr / Pfr conversions and different light spectrums speeding up or slowing down the plant's clock.

Phytochrome tutorial: http://hallidaylab.bio.ed.ac.uk/documents/phytochromepresentationkjhVal.pdf

PAD Manual and Different light spectrum time factors can be found in: http://www.myspace.com/temporalphotonics/photos and reading the 1st edition of the PAD Manual.


I think this was better than my first post. Maybe 2 cents? No? Well maybe some day...

 

[omera1]

Different experiment, but the basic idea of using lights in the dark period remains.

The basic PAD concept is that light spectrums above 520nm do not trigger Blue sensitive photoreceptors. It still keeps the photosynthesis going but the plant thinks it's night time and doesn't stop flowering.

When plant recieves blue light, it thinks it's daytime. When blue light ends, it's night time. Red and far red lights keep the photosynthesis going but the plant thinks it's night time. There is blue light even in your hps-bulbs. Plant needs less than 10W / m2 of blue light to think it's a day.

Put blue light on during your 12 hours of flowering darkness and the plant starts to re-veg in a few days. Put 630nm 660nm on during your flowering darkness and the plants continue to flower.

So using blue at night time keeps the plant in veg and kinda converts that night into a day so your experiment is basically 22/2 light schdule with changing the light spectrum from red to blue in the middle of the day period. But what it does to the plant (does it grow better? stronger? what?) is totally up to you to document.


There are few things about the PAD concept that should help people who are thinking about using lights in the "dark period" and how they can be used:

Example: 15 hours of light - followed by 2 hours of far red - followed by 7 hours of total darkness. That 2 hours of far red light is recognized as darkness to the plants senses and it causes the plants timer to run slower while providing Red as a Photosynthesis source.

This has to do with Pr / Pfr conversions and different light spectrums speeding up or slowing down the plant's clock.

Phytochrome tutorial: http://hallidaylab.bio.ed.ac.uk/documents/phytochromepresentationkjhVal.pdf

PAD Manual and Different light spectrum time factors can be found in: http://www.myspace.com/temporalphotonics/photos and reading the 1st edition of the PAD Manual.


I think this was better than my first post. Maybe 2 cents? No? Well maybe some day...

thats what im talking about !

 

[Greenheart]

I know I made a small joke at yellow and blue makes green a bit back but really think about it for a second.

If green does not disrupt the flowering cycle but does on some level contribute to photosynthesis then possibly blue would also be potential canidate for further driving nightime photosynthesis. Yellow? It is between green and red. UV? FR? With LED we can narrow down 1/2 to full nanometer bandwith and distinguish where the cutoff for flowering is located.

Just for points of reference this chart I have in my albums. Shows blue as 450-495nm and green starting at 495nm-570nm. Yellow is a small bit from 570-590. We take green which is innocent like and we start extending to the blue spectrum until influence on flowering is reached in 1 nm increments. Then in same theory we could branch the other direction towards red. What if a yellow LPS (low pressure sodium) for instance had no influence on flowering but did allow great photosynthetic activity to occur?

 

[Sativa Dragon]

Hey there Folks, I have been Banned for the past month for posting some assholes pm in a forum I had deleted it after finding out it was against the TOU, But Yortbogey Banned me the next day.

Anyhow I obviously was unable to let Icmag in on the results of my test. Sorry to all who care.

Peace

 

[spiritual uk]

Different experiment, but the basic idea of using lights in the dark period remains.

The basic PAD concept is that light spectrums above 520nm do not trigger Blue sensitive photoreceptors. It still keeps the photosynthesis going but the plant thinks it's night time and doesn't stop flowering.

When plant recieves blue light, it thinks it's daytime. When blue light ends, it's night time. Red and far red lights keep the photosynthesis going but the plant thinks it's night time. There is blue light even in your hps-bulbs. Plant needs less than 10W / m2 of blue light to think it's a day.

Put blue light on during your 12 hours of flowering darkness and the plant starts to re-veg in a few days. Put 630nm 660nm on during your flowering darkness and the plants continue to flower.

So using blue at night time keeps the plant in veg and kinda converts that night into a day so your experiment is basically 22/2 light schdule with changing the light spectrum from red to blue in the middle of the day period. But what it does to the plant (does it grow better? stronger? what?) is totally up to you to document.


There are few things about the PAD concept that should help people who are thinking about using lights in the "dark period" and how they can be used:

Example: 15 hours of light - followed by 2 hours of far red - followed by 7 hours of total darkness. That 2 hours of far red light is recognized as darkness to the plants senses and it causes the plants timer to run slower while providing Red as a Photosynthesis source.

This has to do with Pr / Pfr conversions and different light spectrums speeding up or slowing down the plant's clock.

Phytochrome tutorial: http://hallidaylab.bio.ed.ac.uk/documents/phytochromepresentationkjhVal.pdf

PAD Manual and Different light spectrum time factors can be found in: http://www.myspace.com/temporalphotonics/photos and reading the 1st edition of the PAD Manual.


I think this was better than my first post. Maybe 2 cents? No? Well maybe some day...

Post in threads and add 2 cents whenever you like.This is an open forum with no rankings.Cheers ,i found your post interesting.

welcome to icmag.all the best

 

[Sativa Dragon]

The results of my experiment reflect what Julkop mentioned, it did re-veg but it like stopped flowering and stayed like that for a bit, Disapointing, not in the least, I will now be trying the PAD method.

Peace

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

VerdantGreen discussed this earlier.

i was party to some testing on this idea a while back.

the plant left under the blue light 24hr (with the red on 12/12) stayed in veg.

thats not to say you might find a different result.

good luck

VG

He discussed some stuff and provided this infomative link explaining photoperiodism.

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/P/Photoperiodism.html

 

[VerdantGreen]

yeah i tried to get an LED company to make me a fixture with a switchable far red element... but it never quite happened after the initial tests with blue light at night failed.

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

Example: 15 hours of light - followed by 2 hours of far red - followed by 7 hours of total darkness. That 2 hours of far red light is recognized as darkness to the plants senses and it causes the plants timer to run slower while providing Red as a Photosynthesis source.

This business of using red incandescent party lights seems really odd. So is the red party light chosen because it isn't emitting any blue? But within those red wavelengths is the 660nm which converts Phytochrome R to Phytochrome FR which inhibits the flowering process. So you're getting your infrared, and some photosynthesis but you're defeating yourself with the PR into PFR change over.

Is this little extra bit of photosynthesis from the visible red light really a plus, or is it a rationalization for using an incandescent party light as a far red light source? You could just as easily use a reptile incandescent heat bulb which is an incandescent bulb painted black, or make your own. This should give you the same infrared without the Phytochrome R changing red light.

Does anybody sell infrared emitting LEDs?

 

[Iffy]

IR emitting LED

IR emitting LED

Does anybody sell infrared emitting LEDs?[/quote]

Apparently so.....

http://www.optodiode.com/

 

[Sativa Dragon]

Does anybody sell infrared emitting LEDs?

Apparently so.....

http://www.optodiode.com/

[/quote]

Most every remote that has been made for TV's and such have utilized LED tech, it is really not hard to source LED's of a specific NM of spec. I got all my stuff off of ebay from China for a good price, it all worked and arrived surprisingly fast, the chinese seem to have done well at making sure they can get there goods to the western nations fast.

Peace

 

[habeeb]

^ here's a IR LED.. there is more companies I believe, just showing one example.. ( can't link for some reason )

so with this quote: "The basic PAD concept is that light spectrums above 520nm do not trigger Blue sensitive photoreceptors."

thing I'm interested in though.. isn't the plant need a rest period? I mean lets look at 12/12, the plant can explode in growth overnight with no light, I think faster then can be done during the day.

I also wonder, if we can get the plant to keep "growing" at night, does it finish faster? which I think is the obvious want here followed with yield increase..

I just wonder, as what if you stayed up all day, you would have no time to dream.. I feel like dreams are the cycle of night "life time" which were influenced by the day.. I know plants and humans are not the same.. I was just saying as I mean we could be messing with something that actually might trigger negativity when the intended result is positivity.. humans have a way of doing that best then anything.. if anyone doesn't understand that, just think Jurassic park or nuclear power plants..... just saying once again, humans have a way of creating trouble poking around..

I will be watching, I'm no the fence right now.. only thing that might make me think towards supporting is the moon light..

 

[Sativa Dragon]

Very interesting I thought about moonlight as well, I look at a plant like a big laboratory, and I said I was going to do the PAD method but then I did not I had to fund some around the house projects. I still have the ear to the ground as far as LED's and light wave lengths are concerned.

Peace

 

[Sativa Dragon]

BTW I have been using blue light during the day with great results.

Peace

 

[habeeb]

Very interesting I thought about moonlight as well, I look at a plant like a big laboratory, and I said I was going to do the PAD method but then I did not I had to fund some around the house projects. I still have the ear to the ground as far as LED's and light wave lengths are concerned.

Peace

SD,

love the ideas being put out.

so when talking about these ideas, how long were you planning for the dark cycle / lights on cycle?

PAD was discussed a ways back somewhere here on IC once, or was it as far back as overgrow??? the name sounds familiar to me, and I remember a "group" or collective doing light manipulation.. that or I made it up all in my head, but it sounds oddly familiar to me for some reason.. but I have a horrible memory... still trying to figure out ( the time I was most stoned ) what fucking star wars movie I saw with my friend for a sneak preview , HAHAHA .. all I remember is some spaceships flying at the beginning with the sounds blowing my mind.. then blank ... OFF TOPIC or what


haha, enjoy your weekend guys

here's link to a IR if you guys are still on that? haven't had time to read the whole thing yet

 

[jibmaster]

I'm glad I came across this thread as I have been researching this topic very heavily of late.

Here are my thoughts:

If you hit the plant with IR light (i think 720 nm far red) after the plant was hit with 620ish nm, the phytochrome will essentially do an instant switch to "dark mode". There is a natural 2hr period where this happens in the absence of IR. If we can flash the plant right after we turn the red lights off with IR we can shorten the "night" by two hours. I want to try this along with blue running all night.

Here is what I am thinking: Run a combo of blue and red during the "day" for 14hrs. The first half hour of "night", I want to run a combo of blue and IR. The IR will turn off after 30 minutes. The blue will stay on 24/7. The down time for the red LED's will only be 10 hours instead of 12 ("dark time"). This could be dropped to 8 for indicas. So you could to 16/8 during flower for the red. Note that the blue LED will be running all the time. Blue spectrum is what is used for the enzyme that is a THC precursor as well.

It's not about day and night. It's about red/IR/PHYTOCHROME.

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

If I now understand it correctly your plants will not flower under 24 hours of blue light. Blue light drives the cryptochromes which allow plants to establish a daily cycle, a circadian rhythm. Just like humans, the presence of blue light signals to the organism that it is daytime. This is supported by the experimental results from work by Verdant Green and Sativa Dragon described in this thread.

 

[jibmaster]

Pr = red absorbing /660 nm When absorbed it converts to Pfr
Pfr= far red absorbing/ 730 nm When absorbed it converts to Pr

Pfr alo reverts to Pr in darkness.

That is the important part. The plant knows that it is night time when their is zero Pfr. The plants naturally convert Pfr to Pr in 2 hours. At this point the biological clock starts ticking. This is how it works in most flowering plants. From the moment Pfr hits zero the clock starts. Various plants have a specific threshold of time they need to spend with zero Pfr to continue flowering. If you use pure blue LED's in the 430/460nm range you will not create the Pfr that is required to make the night conversion to Pr. In order to run Blue lights 24/7 during flowering there needs to be red light near 666nm during the established "day". There needs to be a follow up of 730nm far red to begin the night by forcing the Pr to Pfr conversion. 730nm causes a near instant conversion of Pfr to Pr. That is how you speed up the night by two hours.

The slightest bit of red light near 666nm will reset the Pr back to Pfr and restarts the night clock. This is the reason we keep a light tight room/box at night. There are trace amounts of red light in all lights with the exception of LED's.

Rosenthal touches on blue light at night here: http://www.mjgrowers.com/book_what_exper1.htm

 

[jibmaster]

This test won't be economical until the price of IR led's comes down. A quick search shows that a single LED runs for $10-$15 USD.

http://www.mouser.com/Optoelectronics/LED-Lighting/LED-Emitters/High-Power-LEDs-Single-Color/_/N-8usfn?P=1yzomda&Keyword=115368871&FS=True&Ntk=P_MarCom

The price for LED's around 660 nm is similar ($10-$15). If you put a filter on the search at mouser.com you can see that a 630nm led is only $1.50 - $2.00.

Remember these prices are for the single LED itself. No heatsink, wires or fans. Just one single LED.