Blue light at night the controversy rages

[Only Ornamental]

Ah, okay, now I get it .

Why do you need a far red? Cause standard red (>600 nm) bulbs also emit far red (>700 nm), right? Or is the red a monochromatic LED with precisely 660 nm?

Showing your lighting schedule would be nice because I don't see why exactly you use three different bulbs . I get that using one full spectrum bulb seems a waist cause of the unused green part but your three bulbs have a very low efficacy and what one gains by avoiding the green 'spectrum' one looses with the 'coloured' bulbs...
Does it really pay out? What's the difference in terms of harvest quantity and quality, growth habit and speed of growth compared to a standard 12:12 lighting scheme?

Sorry if I simply overlooked a post or two...

 

[Martian Meds]

All great questions.. Let me post the manual then I will answer the best I can.. Some of your questions will be answered by reading the manual..

Unfortunately I did figure all this stuff out.. People with much more knowledge then I have did.. But thank god they did or I would be in the dark about RED light.. (no pun intended).

So my answers are gonna seem trivial as compared to an answer from the founders of PAD..

Let me get this posted, then I will try to answer best I can..

 

[Martian Meds]

PAD Manual

PAD Manual

This is the PAD manual 1st edition

 

[Martian Meds]

More of the PAD manual.

 

[Martian Meds]

The rest of the PAD manual.

 

[Martian Meds]

Here is one of the founder of this PAD method commenting in another forum about the reason to use this PAD method.

This is Sal's quote:

"The usual advantage of PAD, is both greater Photosynthesis and pigment synthesis (THC) compared to SID."

"Rauber Enhancement provides fairly uniform stem elongation top to bottom, side to side (volumetric uniformity), which tends to provide more compound synthesis top to bottom, side to side by it's nature. Since components working together at optimized ratios function better, not only is the growth more uniform, but larger.".

"The light spectrum's don't run the metabolism directly but through altering populations of molecules that do, but altering the populations takes time itself, so there is a lag. There are lags like this in all such alterations in the form of transition time, but even during the transition the metabolism is changing in direct proportion to those molecular populations."

This explains a little bit about why the blue light is being used during an advanced PAD setup.

"Blue spectrum data is provided to help growers understand "Day" lighting spectrum's and is basically needed for secondary the photo periodic timing considerations."

Gonna put this quote in here as well.

"Rauber Enhancement is the response between two saturating spectrum duration's that occur within ninety minutes of each other, where the responses based on each time duration, rather than a response to an intermediate combination of the spectrum based on the wattage's of the two spectrum's." (from chapter 3 of “Photosynthetic Artificial Darkness, Rauber Enhancement, and Rauber Enhanced PAD. 1st Edition AKA: The PAD Manual. Copyrighted 2009 Shawn Rauber, as a representative of Temporal Photonics and of the author, I have express rights to reproduce this citation of the author’s copyrighted work.)

It may not sound like much, but it solves every gripe I ever heard about indoor lighting, and is a God Send to LED growers.

Not sure if this answers all you questions.. But I think it's a good start.. Enjoy

 

[Only Ornamental]

Thanks.
I read it... errr... Suppose it only does good for LED grows.
Is it correct that he uses only 4 hours 'day' (blue) and the rest 'PAD' with alternating red and far red?
Strange, he does not really point out that the far red after 'blue lights out' is important and besides the only scientifically proven thing with short day plants and depending on the species saves 1 to 3 hours! I really think about giving it a try (if I find a cheap far red light source; that ExoTerra Moonlight, as stupid as it is with regard to reptiles, might indeed work here). Especially with sativas there might be an advantage if you can have a 13:11 or even a 14:10 day/night schedule instead of a 12:12 to 11:13. Also, regular far red flashes (or minimum intervals depending on the timer used) could avoid light leak problems...

IMHO it sounds more like a chaotic approach (chaos mainly for the circadian rhythm of the plant). I'm not saying it doesn't or can't work but from a purely theoretical aspect I'd say his strategy needs improvement. I can't follow his line of thoughts or reconstruct how he got there... it simply doesn't make any sense to me... but that's not my field of expertise either.
Too bad that there's nearly nothing on short day plants and we don't understand yet how cryptochromes and blue light influence growth and especially flowering in these species.

 

[Martian Meds]

I'm with ya on the "not making sense" part. lol.. It took Sal a year online explaining it to me and a few others. And I still don't fully understand the whole process that happens inside the plant itself..

I'm currently testing an HPS PAD setup.. I run HPS 10 hours. 6 hours of PAD lighting (730/660 cycling). 8 hours of darkness.. The 6 hours of PAD lighting gives me back 4 hours of critical darkness. Add that to the 8 hours of actual darkness and it gives the plant a 12/12 schedule. Kind of cool I guess.

Believe it or not.. The 6 hours of cycling 730/660 is less stretch then 12 hours of darkness would be. Plus I found cycling the Pr/Pfr during the night time boost the plants up nicely before the HPS comes on.. PAD is used in my setup as sun up.

The advanced PAD setup schedule 4/20 (the one you were referring to) That's a ripening schedule like a 10/14 standard lighting schedule and the 6/18 is a 12/12 schedule. He was just using the 4/20 as the example.

The 24 hour advanced PAD setup runs an average time factor of 1.7 per 24 hour cycle.. If you look at the first table in the PAD manual.. It shows the suns time factor of 1.6. The suns time factor is the goal here.

I think if you flowered running a 1.6-7 time factor indoors 24 hours a day with an advanced PAD setup and had that PAD medicine tested.. IMO one would never go back to a standard 12/12 flowering..

I haven't been able to double my THC content.. But the guy's that figured this crazy lighting setup out have. I've gained a few percentage points tho.. lol

 

[Mikenite69]

I have a blue and white led panel. Now I have 2 switches where I could use either all blue or all white or both on.

Now the kicker to this whole situation is that I just flipped my plants to flower yesterday under my metal halide. So I could possibly expirement with one plant for education purposes and at 7 when my hid light goes off I can take one plant out of my tent and put it under my blue and white led light that is in a separate room for expiremental purposes. Ofcourse I would be keeping it on a all blue sprectrum.

I am down to try this out I'll start this project tomorrow and report my findings plus I am doing a test grow anyways so documenting it would be no issue.

I am pretty intrigued now to see if this really works.

 

[Martian Meds]

The all blue spectrum will show sex but will not flower .. If sexing a plant is what your looking for,then by all means run pure blue light 12 hours during the darkness and the plants will show sex in a few days..

But if it's flowers your looking for.. Don't run any blue light during darkness..

Hope that helped

 

[Mikenite69]

OH ok because i thought on the first page it stated that if you run blue leds in dark period that it will continue to flower??

I would of been interested in trying this out because as i stated i do have a all blue led grow light panel. But if you are saying its been done and tried before then i wont bother..

All my plants are preflowered already that is why i kicked them to flower because they all showed sex already in veg. they are currently under my 1k While my new plants and clones are in another room vegging under my all blue and white led light..

I can say the plants tend to respond better when i keep the all blue sprectrum switch on the led panel. I can also say i get higher female to male ratio if i veg my plants under that led light and i give them alternating days of blue and white on and the other days just all blue lighting...

 

[Martian Meds]

Blue light is a veg trigger. Blue light wont work during a flowering night time for flowers...

However it will work to force hermies by doing whats referred to as light positioning or running the full 12 hours to force sex.. Other then that.. Blue light is not welcome during a flowering night time..

Haven't heard of the male/female ratio.. But sounds like more good blue light info to me thanks.

 

[StoneyK]

Now those are done using red at night. The blue light would activate chloropyll B. While the red light would activate chlorophyll a. From looking at the chart it appears more chlorophyll b is used by blue light than chlorophyll a is by red at certain wavelengths.

View Image

I see some people had issues with reveg usin the reds, the blue would avoid this it seems?

Looking at your graph I know from experience the color temp of moonlight is about 490nm so its more green than blue according to the chart.
They do sit out at night outdoors an it aint pitch black...
There are very bright moonlit nights and that doesnt cause hermies in outdoor plants.
Ive always wondered about this

 

[Martian Meds]

Moon light is a reflection of the suns spectrum.. It's just 400,000 time dimmer..

below is a spectral chart of the moon.

Most of the spectrum making it back to earth from the moons reflection is 730nm and higher. Some of the red spectrum also makes it back to earth.

But blue light on the other hand cant make it through the atmosphere. Dust and water in the atmosphere block what little bit of blue light is coming of the moons reflection.

Hope that helped.

 

[Only Ornamental]

I started 2 Ciskei and 1 Rosetta Stone under 14 hours mixed spectrum. During the night they get a break of 15 min with a 10 W white LED every 3 hours. I did not measure plant heights (I should have) cause 3 times I forgot to place them into their night box (have to do the night light intervals in a box so that the light doesn't awaken my wife). I noticed a considerable amount of stretch during these 3 nights compared to the disrupted nights.

Just wanted to share...

 

[MoPho]

Would this bulb be ok to use as 730nm replacement source

http://www.exo-terra.com/en/products/infrared_basking_spot_lighting.php

OO, you stated that this bulb would work
http://www.exo-terra.com/en/products/night_heat_lamp.php

But it gives off a bluish hue...I thought that was what we wanted to avoid?

 

[Phaeton]

http://www.ledgrowlightsdepot.com/products/philips-greenpower-led-flowering-lamp-14-watt-grow-light

Also available are 660 nm daytime extenders to prevent flowering.
Currently The garden is budding the plants at 13.5/10.5 with excellent results.

 

[MoPho]

http://www.ledgrowlightsdepot.com/products/philips-greenpower-led-flowering-lamp-14-watt-grow-light

Also available are 660 nm daytime extenders to prevent flowering.
Currently The garden is budding the plants at 13.5/10.5 with excellent results.

Do you use the far red both at lights out and before lights on? How long do you leave the far red on for? 10/15/30 minutes? Do you use the 13.5-10.5 schedule right when you flip or do you slowly ease into that schedule from 12/12?

Thanks
MP

 

[Joint Lock]

The moon is 460nm - 480nm Blue light penetrates the more then any color in the spectrum . I know this due to this. Lighting and water chemistry are my stuff . Before u say anything PAR is PAR .Same exact par is used to grow this aquariums corals . Just a ton more science to this vs cannabis

 

[Joint Lock]

The moon is 460nm - 480nm Blue light penetrates the more then any color in the spectrum . I know this due to this. Lighting and water chemistry are my stuff . Before u say anything PAR is PAR .Same exact par is used to grow this aquariums corals . Just a ton more science to this vs cannabis View Image

Any u guys got questions and want real answers on LEDS and PAR go talk to the reef guys with 20,000$ sps tanks . They make us growers look stupid . This is no joke when it comes to water chemistry and lighting we emulate moon lighting in reefs for coral spawnings and fish spawnings