Bloom Nutes during Veg

[bterzz]

Now that I caught your attention with my wild topic question, its time for some answers.

About a month into veg I switched over to Fox Farms Open Sesame as directed on the FF chart.

I watered once after, and I noticed intense sad/droopyness. I was stumbled upon my problems. I was getting tons of "overwatering" "underwatering" advice. I took one out of its pot and realized thats not the case, at all.

Good strong rootball but they're always sad.

Some suggested they were root bound in my 3 gallon pots and although I think they could use a transplant, I dont think that is the cause for the sadness.

Anyways, it seems as my girls seem to perk up in the shorter hours of lights-on, and by the time I wake up a couple hours before lights off they look like pure SADNESS.

I was using tap water but im switching to RO.

I also switched to 12/12 this morning and going to give them a nice strong watering in a couple hours.

 

[HeadyPete]

Yes time for answers....fill out the infirmary form and post some closeups and full shots of your plants and you can start getting some answers. It's in Stitch's guide to sick plants.

 

[bterzz]

Hey heady, not a bad idea!

SOIL: Fox Farm Ocean Forest

How long has this problem been going on? About 9 days.
What STRAIN are you growing? OG Kush
What was the establishing technique? (seed or clone?) Clone
What is the age of your plants? 40 days old
How long have they been in the soil mixture they are in now? There life span
How Tall are the plants? About 18"
What PHASE (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in? 12/12 as of this morning

What size pots are you using? 3 gallon pots. 1 plant per pot.
What substrate/medium are you using? Fox Farm Ocean forest with added perlite
What Nutrient's are you using? I transfered from veg nutes to Fox Farm Open Sesame to help with the beginning flowering stage about 8 days ago. After this water, and 1 more water, the plants began to look really droopy. Previously using Vitamin B and Fox Farm Grow big. ROOT EXCULERATOR too.
How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? *Knowing the brand is very helpful* 2 gallons per 12 plants. 1/2 strength.
How often are you feeding? Every other watering
If flowering, when did you switch over to using Bloom nutrients? Started the open sesame about 8 days ago. Saw problems after that and got scared to flip. Thought I figured out the problem of underwatering and put more bloom nutes in and was going to flip the next day. They didnt bounce back so I got scared to flip. I flipped this morning figuring I have nothing to lose

What is the TDS/EC/PPM of your nutrients used? Unsure.
What is the pH of the "RUN-OFF"? 6.5
What method of pH test was administered? Using Strips? pH pen? Strips & Drops
How often are you watering? Every 3-4 days
When was your last feeding and how often are you feeding? Two days ago
What size bulb are you using? 2 600w HPS
What is the distance to the canopy? 16"
What is your RH Factor? (Relative Humidity) 40%
What is the canopy temperature? About 78
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include fluctuation range) Day: 78 Night: 68-71
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.) 6" Exhaust fan running at all times, passive intake.
Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ?
Is the fan blowing directly at plants? Moving fan on plants
Is the grow substrate constantly wet or moist? No
Is your water HARD or SOFT? Hard
What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water? Tap water. I got some RO water and going to feed RO from now on. Havnt used it yet though.
Are you using water from a water softener? No
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned or pinched? Pruned (1 of them).
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so what and when? None
Are plant's infected with pest's? Nope.

The problem started showing up awhile ago. I was told I was over-watering even though I was certain I wasnt and still saw the droop.


After my last watering I was certain they were going to bounce back up because my droop was from underwater. I used 1.75 gallons through all 12 plants. About 10% runoff. They started to bounce back up before I went to bed and when I woke up they were DROOPY!

I broke open a pot to see how my roots were and I have a picture below. The middle of the soil was moist which leads me to believe there is air pockets but the bottom of the soil was bone dry. I feel like im still underwatering but they dont seem to bounce back up when I do water. Plus im scared to use my tap water and want to change to RO.

Id like to mention these pictures are older, the plants on the left, that look half decent, are now droopy as shit. I know they need water but there is something else going on here.

 

[HeadyPete]

Do you know ppm and ph of tap water? Tap is fine as long as it isn't too hard. That cal and mag in the water is good for plants.

I suspect you aren't watering enough when you do, and they are drying out fast because the root zones are not saturated. Can you give them more and let them sit in the runoff for an hour or so? Peat based mixes don't like to saturate easily, it takes time and/or a wetting agent. They especially need time to soak if they have dried right out. Water real good, then lift the pot to know the weight when fully drenched. Do not water again until the pot is light, but not completely dry.

If they are nice and dark green except for the wilting I would stick to the tap water. RO needs additives like cal mag and is super sensitive to ph swings because there is no cal or mag to buffer the acidic components. Peat based mixes are acidic (unless there is added lime) and RO would drop ph down. Tap water counters the acidic peat nicely....

 

[bterzz]

Ya I know plenty of people who are successful with the TAP and I know some people who wont even touch it, and swear by RO.

Thanks for the good information. I'm going to get them some trays to sit in.

I know the PH of my Tap is like 8.0+. Its crazy high. To be honest, I noticed lately my tap water is kind of stinky.. scary thought.

I think im letting the bottoms dry out while the pot is still decently heavy because the moisture in the middle. I'm going to get those trays and let them sit in some water and suck it up.

 

[HeadyPete]

RO is great, but unnecessary a lot of the time. I don't like that it produces something like 70% waste water down your drain.

My tap is 8+ as well, and it takes some ph down to get it down. Plus I grow in coco (6.5 ish ph) which doesn't balance high ph water like acidic peat mix. Are you letting the tap water sit at least 24 hrs or better yet bubbling it overnight before you use it to release any chlorine in it? Chlorine has a ph of 11!

I have been thinking of switching my nutrients to PBP from BioBizz, because the PBP is more acidic and would bring my water down with less PH down needed.....still considering this move....(the other issue is BB is a real hassle for me to get and about a 6 hr round trip to get it. The PBP is available much closer to home for me)

 

[bterzz]

No I havn't been letting my water sit every time. Sometimes I do sometimes I don't.

The growth is all green just very sad and veniey looking.

I really want to try the RO so i'm going to buy some cal/mag and some trays so I can start letting my girls sit in some of the water.

i'm so upset man . Its crazy . Although dark green and lush, but very droopy and sad, transfering to 12/12 in these conditions...what kinda negatives am I looking at?

Thanks for your help Heady, much appreciated.

 

[HeadyPete]

Bubble the tap every time. Also give the water an hour or so to stabilize after you add the ph down/nutes. The acid and the cal and mag in the tap water will react for awhile before settling down on the final ph. If you measure too early you will get a false reading and the ph will continue to change in the root zone, making for unhappy plants.

If it is just a case of not proper saturation, they will be just fine once you correct the issue and won't affect bloom at all.

Try the RO, just be aware that it takes a very small amount of ph down or up to affect a big swing in ph, unlike tap water, because of the lack of buffering minerals like cal and mag.

You can use plain unsulphured blackstrap molasses as a organic natural calmag substitute, plus it will provide sugar to fuel growth and other beneficial micros and vitamins. Search some molasses threads here. Molasses is a fraction of the price of cal mag.

Try the soak it method first to see if that works before making big changes to your program. If they improve and stay that way, then try the RO. Changing too many things at once is a recipe for trouble.

 

[bterzz]

You can use Blackstrap molasses as Cal Mag? Someone should've told me. What about Grandms unsulphered?

By bubbling, may i just set my water out in the sun for a day or do I have to get something in particular.

 

[sparky73]

just let container sitout the chlorine will evaporate, is just faster if you bubble it

 

[bterzz]

Thanks Sparky.

If this is a lock-out issue due to my TAP water, how can I revive these girls? A good flush?

Im so upset. I had such high expectations.

 

[HeadyPete]

You can leave the water out open for a day or two (the sun will burn the chlorine off - did you work for a pool company?, but bubbling with an airstone and aquarium pump accomplishes the job quicker.

Yes molasses is an excellent alternative. Grandma's isn't the best, there are better brands. Check out this thread http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=101637 on molasses, lots of analysis of different brands, here is one to compare to CalMax:

Calcium

Molasses - 15%
CalMax - 10-15%

Mag

Molasses - 10%
CalMax 10-15%

Iron

M- 20%
C/M - .5 -1.5

Tree of Life
Unsulfured Blackstrap Molasses
45 calories
Sodium 15mg
Potassium 500mg
Carbohydrates 11g
Sugar 8g
Calcium 15%
Iron 20%
Magnesium 10%

Here is the makeup of CalMax

PRODUCT IDENTIFIER: Calmax
PRODUCT USE: Liquid fertilizer WHMIS CLASSIFICATION: Class D2-B
MANUFACTURER'S NAME: Grotek Manufacturing Inc. SUPPLIER'S NAME: Same as manufacturer
ADDRESS: 284,505 8840 210th Street, Langley, BC V1M 2Y2 ADDRESS: Same as manufacturer
IN CASE OF EMERGENCY: (604) 882-7686
SECTION 2 – HAZARDOUS INGREDIENTS
HAZARDOUS INGREDIENTS
%
CAS #
LD50 OF INGREDIENT
(SPECIFY SPECIES AND
ROUTE)
LC50 OF INGREDIENT
(SPECIFY SPECIES)
Calcium Chloride 10-15 10035-04-8 Mouse Oral 20 500 mg/Kg NAV
Magnesium Nitrate 10-15 10377-60-3 Oral Rat 5 440 mg/Kg NAV
Fulvic Extracts 1-5 NAV NAV NAV
Iron EDTA 0.5-1.5 15275-07-7 NAV NAV

Don't let anyone tell you you can't use molasses instead of calmax/calmag.

 

[Brother Bear]

great info HP
i use grandma's now, but i think a change is in order

 

[bterzz]

HP You're the man!!


If this is a lock-out issue due to my TAP water, how can I revive these girls? A good flush?

 

[inreplyavalon]

HP that is a great side by side comparison. I have been trying to find a calmag alternative to use later in flower with my R/O water so as to avoid the Nitrogen in flower. I am having over nitrogen issues in my flower room and its a bummer.

Do you think molasses can be used for this? If not i was going to switch to tap, but the tap round here is unpredictable

 

[HeadyPete]

Lockout is caused by incorrect ph or overfeeding. Flushing helps but you have to correct the problem.

Let's get these pots good and saturated and see how they do first.

Yes inreplyavalon, you can use molasses the whole way through the plant's life, but it would be good for you because it has a low NPK (average NPK 1-0-5 - half the N of calmag). It's a carbohydrate source to feed and stimulate microorganisms and contains potash (K), sulfur, and many trace minerals. Molasses is also an excellent safe and natural chelating agent, which helps makes other nutrients more available to plants, especially iron. The EDTA in calmag does the same thing but it is a synthesized chemical and questionable in it's safety.

What are you feeding that you have a N issue? Why can't you stop giving N?

 

[Illadelph]

2 Cents: I do hydro, DWC. Have done both distilled and tap water, found tap works better, but that could be because i was using distilled as a begginer so it may have been more a case of begginer's error.

I use GH FloraNova nutes, Bloom only, for both veg and bloom. They guy at the store said this would not work, but it has been working for me. Correct me if i'm wrong, but dont bloom and veg nutes have the same stuff in em, just in different ratio's? Maybe they wont veg as fast with the less N, but they still grow pretty fast, with nice dark green leaves. Just thought I'd let it be known. It was originally suggested to me from another IC memeber, dont remember who, but they were the one who told me I didnt have to buy veg and bloom, just bloom and save money.

 

[inreplyavalon]

Thanks for the reply HP. It sounds as if there is no reason i should not be using Molasses.
Not sure how i ended up with too much Nitrogen in my girls. They are a week into flush and are still quite green.
Someone on a the Mr. Nice Forums in the Shark Shock section raised the idea that due to the unusually small yield and small buds and the dark leaes it looked like i was experiencing too much N. After reading and observing I have no reason to think anything else.

I fed them PBP all through their lives. I do 1/2 Bloom 1/2 veg through the second week of flower then switch to all bloom. The only Nitrogen they were fed was what was in PBP and cal-mag. Never used the PBP past half strength, and used the Calmag at about 4-6ml./G
I do water 3X a day in coco pots. I wonder if i should be feeding Even lighter am solution since they are fed frequently? What do you think?

 

[HeadyPete]

Good info, I believe the Lucas Formula used here successfully is bloom and micro if i am not mistaken.....you'll find much better info here than from your hydro guy...sad truth. You are correct about the nutes, although they may have different additives, depending on the brand on type. All nute brands have different NPK numbers, so because one has enough N doesn't mean another brand will. Your plants will sure tell you...

I can't see it being cheaper because the plants are going to use the same amount of nutes basically, so you need two bloom or one bloom and one grow, the plant will eat it eventually.

If you are using bloom, make note of the N and see if your plants become deficient - yellowing lower leaves usually. If they do, add grow or switch to a brand of bloom with more N.

 

[HeadyPete]

Thanks for the reply HP. It sounds as if there is no reason i should not be using Molasses.
Not sure how i ended up with too much Nitrogen in my girls. They are a week into flush and are still quite green.
Someone on a the Mr. Nice Forums in the Shark Shock section raised the idea that due to the unusually small yield and small buds and the dark leaes it looked like i was experiencing too much N. After reading and observing I have no reason to think anything else.

I fed them PBP all through their lives. I do 1/2 Bloom 1/2 veg through the second week of flower then switch to all bloom. The only Nitrogen they were fed was what was in PBP and cal-mag. Never used the PBP past half strength, and used the Calmag at about 4-6ml./G
I do water 3X a day in coco pots. I wonder if i should be feeding Even lighter am solution since they are fed frequently? What do you think?

Perhaps the calmag...also use the PBP soil bloom (NPK: 1.5-4-5)...it has more P and less N than the hydro PBP bloom (2.5-2-5) + calmag = 4.5-2-5!