blah - mag/iron RDWC

[darkhollo]

What STRAIN are you growing? Grindhouse SourBubble
What was the establishing technique? seed and clone
What is the age of your plants? 2 months
What PHASE are the plants in? (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in? Veg
What Technique are you using? RDWC
What substrate/medium are you using? Straight hydroton
What is the Nutrient temperature? 66F
What Nutrient's are you using? GH 3part
What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using? 600PPM
What is the pH of the "Tank"? 6.0
Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equipment? within days. yes.
When was your last watering? NA
When was your last feeding change? (ie. grow-bloom-micro-additional) (lucas) a week ago. i was up to 800ppm, but they looked even more pissed so i backed down.
What size bulb are you using? 1000watt MH
What is the distance to the canopy? 24 inches
What is your RH Factor? 40%
What is the canopy temperature? 79-82
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include flucutaion range) 24hour light
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.)
Is the fan blowing directly at plants? oscillating but yes
Is your water HARD or SOFT? RO water.
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinched No
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so, What and When? No
Are plant's infected with pest's No


Blah. So my pump died, killed the chiller. root rot set in. got the chiller fixed. white roots abound, SM-90 in the rez at max dosage. They were looking great but now I'm getting this nute def. They are quite pissed. I had them on low nutes 400ppm (1/4 lucas) after the root rot episode. they rebounded.. white roots emerged and i figured they were hungry so jumped to 1/2 lucas (~800 ppm) but then this shit came in strong so I dropped back down to 550 or so. They have consumed a small amount but not much. I have auto-topoff of RO water so it's harder to tell (maybe I should stop that for a bit)

I thought it was mag, but then i thought it looked an awful lot like zinc (but i know isn't common) ?? Any insight?

My ph was holding steady @ 5.8 but I bumped to 6.0 for a bit of a swing for a few days but they continue their march into def. land.

--dh

 

[HeadyPete]

You burnt them but they look like they are growing out of it. Go easy on the ferts, they are still small!

 

[darkhollo]

Really? Pic two clearly looks like yellowing of the veins. I must say I never even entertained nute burn. They were showing that odd yellowing of the veins before I bumped to 800ppm (from 400) as I thought maybe they were hungry @ 400ppm.

What is the general consensus on nute strength for a situation like this?

 

[lysol]

I'd put ppms at like 450 ( do a full changeout dont just dilute ) and PH to 5.7 and not touch it for a while until your ph gets to 6.4

 

[HeadyPete]

what he said ^^^

Nuteburn will certainly show up as yellowing of the veins. When you overfeed, the higher concentration of salts in the root zone pull water from the plant with results the same as not watering. Chlorophyll production stops, leaves die.

 

[darkhollo]

Well I swapped out the water, pHed to 5.7 and about 500ppm (1/4 lucas)

Here are some additional photos of today (one day after the swap out) just to see if you still say overfert. I realize a day isn't enough to tell. Just figured here are some better pictures of that yellowing veins.

My first grow was beginner's luck. now i'm paying the price of complacency.

 

[lysol]

Yep, anytime your leaves droop in hydro, its a good chance its either

1: root rot ( not so here )
2: under water ( not the case here )
3: over fertilization
4: under fertilization

Your leaves are dark green which means they have a bit more N then they could use, I am no expect on lucas formula but I hope to try it out after this current foxfarms run, I'm still a beginner too and for the last 3 months I've been in denial about over ferting.

Just think of it this way, nutrient deficiencies are very rare in modern gardens, running a lower ppm does not mean the plant is getting less food, nutes do not make the plant grow faster in any way at all, ( light is the "engine", the nutes are just the "oil", cover your engine in too much "oil" and its not gonna help the engine )

plus look at how the edge of the leaf are burnt, if it were a def. it would work up the plant slower and from the tips back, and there would be more yellowing.

Over nuting causes salt buildups in the medium that lockout other various nutrients, there's no need to figure out which elements are locked out, just decide for yourself wether your problem is a salt buildup, if you agree lower back on those ppms, you want to really lower it so that the salts will dissolve into the water, lower it down for a few more days and watch your ppms closely what they do, if they are going up fast and water level stays the same, well youre getting those salts out, when and if that happens do another changeout until it stabalizes, then let the plant grow for another week before upping ppms again, just what id do. Ideally you want a more light green like the color of a lime, if its coming out darker then that for the leaves its trying to get rid of excess N in the system

See how the back half of your new growth is coming out that color, and then towards the tips of that leaf its already started storing excess N. It is looking a lot better then the older leafs which tells me you changed something that it liked. Since you lowered ppms and it responded I would lower a lil more to get more of the same response. I was discussing this with shaunmulok and his strategy is to not touch the ppm or PH except for every 3rd day, I am going to do the same thing except in extreme cases. If I were you I would really put that plant at like 350 or 400ppm and just not touch it for like 3 days minimum, its not like its gonna die of a deficiency that fast. DWC is unforgiving of over ferting and deficiencies take time to set in anyways.

You could consider a full flush with tap water or clearex or whatever, but I think youll be fine to just lower the ppm and wait.

I could be wrong but just my take on it.

Wait until theyre like 12" before you start going up into the 700 - 1,000 range

 

[darkhollo]

well i appreciate the extensive response. I am just amazed it's overfert but I have to err on the side of the infirmary. I truly don't know what i'm doing over here. Some of these are easily 12" tall though. it's hard to see it in the photos. Some were larger clones than others. Two bit the dust so I had to throw in some seedlings.. not ideal situation with mixed maturity but obviously i'm lost in the weeds and just fucking around.

I will wait a few days and if i don't see an improvement I will try the flush theory. I'm just so pissed at myself for being THIS shitty. I have read icmag for over a year or more. I regularly come in the ifirm to see what's going on, types of issues. The MynameStitch sticky is printed in a notebook in my room for reading next to the ladies.

Well just wanted to say thanks for everyone who is responding. I appreciate the kind approach to a shitty newb. I WILL conquer this shit and figure it out. Hopefully my next grow I will be a bit easier on them.

--dh

 

[Hydro-Soil]

white roots emerged and i figured they were hungry so jumped to 1/2 lucas (~800 ppm) but then this shit came in strong so I dropped back down to 550 or so.

You're under a 1000w MH. As soon as you had roots again you should have gone full strength Lucas. Either raise the nute strength to what it should be or raise the light way up so they're only eating the small amount of nutes you're giving them.

Fix the str and the deficiencies will go away.

 

[darkhollo]

Ok.. so quite a different approach here.
Just one question.. what does STR stand for?

Thanks for the input.
--dh

 

[HeadyPete]

yup. burnt to a crisp.

Go easy and watch for nice green healthy new growth. That old damage will not repair itself.

They are so small for 800ppms.....

 

[Hydro-Soil]

Ok.. so quite a different approach here.
Just one question.. what does STR stand for?

Thanks for the input.
--dh

Str is strength. You're not going to re-burn your plants with the right solution strength. The only issue you would have is if your medium still had too much nutes in it. You've already flushed so that's not going to be an issue.

Your plants need full strength nutes to convert the light they're getting. They're showing deficiencies because they're cannabalizing themselves for food. Up the strength to 1300-1400ppm (@ .7 conversion) and you'll be golden. You have TONS of light and they already have roots.... Have at it

 

[lysol]

I will wait a few days and if i don't see an improvement I will try the flush theory. I'm just so pissed at myself for being THIS shitty. I have read icmag for over a year or more. I regularly come in the ifirm to see what's going on, types of issues. The MynameStitch sticky is printed in a notebook in my room for reading next to the ladies.

Yeah but if you dont look back and think of yourself as inexperienced, that means you didnt gain experience, if you look back and laugh it means you are smarter today than yesterday. If a color blind person read books about colors they wouldnt know what "red" is when they saw it, take it easy and youll pull thru the problems, cant read a book on how to ride a bike and just know how to ride right away. I've had over a year of harvests and I still fucked up hardcore when I first switched to hydro.

.6 ec is the highest I would go on that plant, if your plant is stretched or was propagated by clone then your plant isnt "technically" 12" yet ( well it is but you know what I mean, it needs nodes and vegetation, not just stem.. not trying to call your plants small just saying youd be surprised how little nutes they will need )

When there is a salt buildup you can put in 100ppm tap water and get out 300ppm waste days later, the salts dissolve from the medium into the water, thats why you gotta compensate and keep it low, I was frying a seedling at 5 nodes on 200ppm

 

[Hydro-Soil]

.6 ec is the highest I would go on that plant, if your plant is stretched or was propagated by clone then your plant isnt "technically" 12" yet ( well it is but you know what I mean, it needs nodes and vegetation, not just stem.. not trying to call your plants small just saying youd be surprised how little nutes they will need )

When there is a salt buildup you can put in 100ppm tap water and get out 300ppm waste days later, the salts dissolve from the medium into the water, thats why you gotta compensate and keep it low, I was frying a seedling at 5 nodes on 200ppm

Sorry but I disagree. That plant is plenty tall/big/healthy enough to tolerate full strength Lucas. I put week old seedlings with 2 nodes into 800ppm (@.5 conversion) without issues.

Doubtful there's much salt buildup in what little medium is being used. Curious to see if you're using the Lucas formula? Anything else I can see burning stuff up but not with Lucas.

Clones with 4 roots 3" long can take full strength Lucas, as long as you're running 50-60wpsqft or more.

 

[darkhollo]

I will get some additional photos today of these guys and full size photos. The shots I have been taking are quite misleading.

I am inexeperienced.. i have some but as the general word is used.. i lack a plethora of experience. This is my third grow and the previous two were pure dreams. I was patting myself on the back the whole way. Get lazy and murphy's law finds you! Shit, that bastard finds you anyway.

I truly appreciate the dialog. These plants have an extensive root system. I do not see how salt is building up in medium as the water isn't actually touching the medium anymore. 2" air gap to netpot.

Additional photos and I will be following up on this. Not that I haven't got good info, but threads are what makes this site great and the eventual solution to my problem and the accompanying dialogue that got me to the solution are worth recording.

Thanks again.
--dh

 

[darkhollo]

hydro-soil - not sure if that Lucas question was for me or not.. but i am definitely using lucas formula. If it wasn't pointed towards me please disregard.
--dh

 

[darkhollo]

Here are some larger pics with a point of reference.

Also are some pictures of my sad roots.

Water temp is 67-68F
Using SM-90 @ 3ml per gallon, put it once a week (per label)

Clearly my roots look like shit. They are brown (stained) from florilicious but I discontinued the use after the last rez change.

They do look limp though. Wondering if it's time to cull this crowd and do a complete sterilize.

--dh

 

[Hydro-Soil]

What temp is your nute solution and have there been any changes in your airstones/pumps? If your temps are below 70F and you have plenty of air, you really shouldn't need that SM-90. If you're still going to use it, I'd advise doing a few searches on here and reading up on it, lot of folks have experience with it and probably better advice than the lable.

Keep Growing!

 

[darkhollo]

I have an AP-100 air pump.. air on steroids and then some! 6 inch sintered air stone in each bucket (8 total)

Nute soluation is at 67F. 1/4HP chiller.

--dh

 

[Hydro-Soil]

I have an AP-100 air pump.. air on steroids and then some! 6 inch sintered air stone in each bucket (8 total)

Nute soluation is at 67F. 1/4HP chiller.

--dh

Then why the SM-90? You have some weird setup or something? With all the electricity you're already spending, your roots should look nice and pearly white without it.