Biopiracy in the search for Landraces.<--on going discussion, please be civil in your choice of words and grammer.

[fArside617]

I'm hoping to get an understanding of whether or not the industries growers have traditionally payed homage to who they got the seed for hybridization from. The question comes after reading an article HERE ; This link taks you to GrowOpportunites... any ways.. this is for school...

So after reading this my impression is that people like the strain hunters guys didn't ever compensate anyone for the seeds they took. But then I got to ask where the moral stance is on this?
I'm not really sure that patenting a Hybrid developed from two land races is wrong? but it feel wrong to patent the actual land race...
this is a real topic of conversation atm..
Ever since I had seen the strain hunters videos i had always wondered whether they actually formed partnerships or payed royalties after using those seeds from the farmers.
Anyways, please share your stories, insight and experiences with this here IF you so dare.

 

[Hmong]

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Yeah, there's likely no contract so it's about the same as paying someone for the seeds in your brickweed.

 

[fArside617]

Yeah, there's likely no contract so it's about the same as paying someone for the seeds in your brickweed.

that's fair. but then if you take that seed and decide to grow it re seed it.. then buy and international patent for that seed so the people who let you take it can no longer grow it... that's what the article linked above touches on
So... is if ok to go to farmer, take a seed, then patent said seed genetics rendering it yours?

FIRE AWAY!! all answer welcome lol

 

[djonkoman]

this is actually quiet an ethical discussion with different sides. look up the nagoya protocol for example.
we just can't really adress it while weed is still illegal.

but, a consequence of that is I think we are currently living in a golden age when it comes to sourcing genetics for your breeding projects. weed is just legal enough, and access to seeds is just good enough with internet etc, that you can get quiet a bunch of landrace seeds.
full legality would theoretically make access easier, but at the same time stuff like the nagoya protocol then starts to matter for weed too. which would likely restrict access to people with deep pockets and good connections (in local governments).

ethically, it's good that local people get a say in what happens to their heritage (genetics/landraces). the problem is, governments often have a different view on what's important as a plant breeder.
for example, I got a lecture once from a guy working for a seedbank. he told us basically the entire organic onion industry is possible because/build on mildew resistant onion varieties. all these varieties use the same resistance gene, so when that gets broken by the pathogen, the entire organic onion industry is fucked.
this resistance gene was discovered in a wild onion species accession from kashmir. it is likely that the population of that onion species there in kashmir is harbouring more different versions of the resistance gene. so, from a plant breeder perspective, very good reason to go to kashmir and gather some more accessions.

however, you probably know how volatile the political situation around kashmir is. so the governments there aren't exactly thrilled about the idea of foreigners wandering around in search of onion plants, they don't see the big value in gathering some stupid plants, they just see potential foreign spies.

so it could very well be that once weed becomes more legal, we will lose easy access to some landraces/seeds that you now can get quiet easily. think about afghan landraces for example, I don't think the taliban government will be very easily persuaded to let in a seed hunting expedition.

 

[Nannymouse]

Oh, the joy of Ethics courses. Wasn't my favorite of the Philosophy class options, but it was required in certain scholastic fields.

You ask for facts about how the industry repays the 'landrace' farmer. I wouldn't know, as i am not in the industry. But, my opinion is that in most cases, very little, or nothing was paid outright, and probably nothing in the way of royalties. But, i don't have the facts.

 

[Hmong]

Oh, the joy of Ethics courses. Wasn't my favorite of the Philosophy class options, but it was required in certain scholastic fields.

love it! haha

You ask for facts about how the industry repays the 'landrace' farmer.

zeeeeero

also I am very much against any form of patent on cannabis genetics, stop acting like some Monsanto wannabe, it's disgusting.
God gave us this plant, and we already fucked it up!
there is still enough "real stuff" around, but all the natives are much smarter now, since guess what?
It ain't 1983 no more, there is even HighSpeed Wifi in Afghanistan now!
just leave the locals alone with your shit! They know what they are doing just fine without ya

I don't think the taliban government will be very easily persuaded to let in a seed hunting expedition.

proves that you know nothing about this topic
also no grow pics or other threads from you, makes you very suspect!

watch this and reconsider everything you said! you so wrong

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Allowing the 'patenting' of a naturally sourced plant (not worked or modified in any unique way) is unethical.

 

[grayeyes]

Yes, farside, Arjan and his crew believe in a strictly commercial bit of piracy. They take the good landrace stock for themselves then leave hybrid crap to pollute and ruin the landrace stock. That way he has the strain and the world no longer does.
Nice, huh?

 

[grayeyes]

The video above is an example of the ruination of the Mazar landrace strain being polluted with another strain. Keep doing this and only us old farts will have the real thing. And we are less likely to share it.

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

If Mazar makes everyone bitter and negative you can keep it. The patenting issue extends well beyond cannabis.

 

[Hmong]

@grayeyes that comment is a candidate for the stupid award!

So in your world, a breeder isn't allowed to make hybrids from his own genetics?
Of course he has all lines still in pure, they are now growing for seed over there and not for production.
Selling seeds via Instagram & Whatsapp to Americans for premium prices.
21st century Afghanistan

call that war reperations!

 

[Gypsy Nirvana]

Generally - from my experience farmers will want to grow what is most commercially profitable - because they are farmers - and the farm is a business that feeds and supports the families that run/own them - when a farmer has been growing rice for years - and can only get around one and a half tons per hectare at harvest - and then someone comes along that has rice seed that produces double that yield - and the seed isn't so expensive - the farmer has a bumper crop - and that makes happy farmers - the same can be happening to virtually any crop including cannabis - particularly in more remote/poorer areas of the planet - I have seen it myself in Jamaica and Morocco (amongst other places) - someone imports a variety that yields more in a shorter time frame - and all the farmers want it - naturally - because the new variety/strain/cultivar produces more saleable product in less time - and quite often they can sell it for much more than the land-race/local 'erb they have had possibly for centuries - since it is new - and different - possibly even more potent than the local stuff - so is more easily saleable not only locally - but for export too -

- as much as there is interest in the west for rare land race varieties - and rightly so - there is also much interest in what western breeders are doing with cannabis from many of these farmers - in more remote areas - because they are always looking for something new and different to grow - just as we are here in Europe - or the USA - or anywhere really - 'variety is the spice of life' - etc -

 

[laszlokovacs]

You can't patent all of the seed stock of a particular hybrid though unless they are gmo in someway, you can only patent specific cultivars i.e. clones. Same way with apple trees, most popular varietis of fruit trees etc.

 

[romanoweed]

im not super knowledgable how many uthentic Landraces even exist like they once did.

but i guess the Trend is, that they grow modern agricultural crops more and more. worldwide.

People also dont understand enough that since we modern Guys figured out how to predictably breed Strains into the highest possible yealding Crop ever. Without taste, quality whatsoever.

So, the times before that were that Farmers were producing simply less, there were less people on earth... Also there were more Farmers, today 1 Farmer produces for 100 people, before the 50s or when this Yealdmaximisation startet they 1 Farmer produced for himselve and a dozen guys in the same Village.

So, the Tendency is that fewer and fewer Farmers grow Landraces. worldwide.

I also have seen a Dokumentation about a Guy robbed of his Pig Landrace. ive seen it.. he lost the Case, he demonstrated.
I think i trust the Doku was truthful.
Ive seen the same thing, where someone with Dragonbllod Incese Trees was offered to sell his old Seedstock. HE declined, puh..
I didnt even lok ofr that type of Content, i was NOT. But it actually has convinced me that Patent Piracy happens. it really does i think.

Now, what to doo?
The shitty thing is that most PEople, when i tell them that old Landraces are special, guess what, 99 Percent dont understand shit, they watch with empty eyes when i tell it, but have no idea what im talking about. The only thing they think of is Apple Trees wich are kind of Semi-wild i guess..
And are not very well bred..
So, there are few to really know how sickening this stuff is. And how good old landrces were.
I always think: Humans have very few common knowledge about nature/natural processes. Thats because nature is a very subtle thing that cant easily be prooven or described on a paper black on white,
So, it cant be communicated well.. I am different i understand such Tape of science with my Gutfeelings, not in a hippy way. But im not the most people.

 

[romanoweed]

And there are good forces too in Politics to prevent such things. But in therms of landraces and Patenting, they have no big crowd behind them.

 

[chilliwilli]

The video above is an example of the ruination of the Mazar landrace strain being polluted with another strain. Keep doing this and only us old farts will have the real thing. And we are less likely to share it.

I was wondering why you need to brush with all the males around.

 

[romanoweed]

Someone already presented the Solution forgot name, he is already doing that:
1) a Seedbank goes and finds the Landrace first, a couple Samples wich prooves the Variety and how roundabout the Genetic imprint is and 2) the Seedbank gets a Certificate about the Genetic analysis, the Analysis is open Source and Copyed an Reportet by 3rd Partys (like a mix out Goverment and Private historical Data Record companys, the more the better.) .

That way Monsanto has a hard Time trying to claim the Sample they collected was a creation of their own, and instead its very hard for them to bribe all the Data record Companys. They cant manipulate and bribe Judges nomore. Cause it will surface, multiple Data Recording Companys would then sooner or later sue Monsanto.

 

[romanoweed]

i mean its a possible solution. The question is mostly: WICH SEEDBANK to trust. But im not shure if you guys even understand there are quiet a few Seebanks, that i have a overall very good Feel about them. Im talking of Food Plant Seedbanks, they go and collect hundrets of oldschool Landraces.. You are wrong when just "mistrusting " them.. Those are privately financed and doo open pollination after open pollination, and often sell their seeds to public (altho few peoples are even remotly knowing and interested in buying them, but overall, these Seedbanks sound and look nothing else than trustful.) those guys who store the seeds in this Norway Ice-bunker.

Would you trust those to do the right thing?

 

[romanoweed]

Gene Bank Gatersleben​

The federal ex situ gene bank is one of the world's largest collections, both because of its botanical diversity and the size of its collection. The stock comprises 151,348 accessions from 92 plant families with 758 genera and 2,912 species.
Most of the collection is stored on the main campus in Gatersleben (Saxony-Anhalt) as seeds in cold rooms at minus 18 degrees. Under these conditions, seed longevity is maintained for several decades. Material that is not suitable for seed storage is preserved in the field, by in vitro culture or cryopreservation. Special collections are maintained at the satellite stations in Groß Lüsewitz and Malchow (Western Pommerania).
In addition to the living collections, the genebank houses a herbarium with 446,656 specimens, 109,387 reference samples of seeds and fruits, and 56,609 cereal spikes.
Since 1948, more than 1.1 million samples have been provided to users at home and abroad. Seed and plant material is available based on the terms of the Standard Material Transfer Agreement of the International Seed Treaty and a small user fee.
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Trut them? misstrust them?