Bigger fan or smaller filter? help

[Batboy]

I was planning on making a trip to the store tomorrow to buy most of my equipment, but now a comment in my cab thread has gotten me thinking: http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=131902

In short, I'm looking at a 400w cooltube inside a 29 cubic foot cab and I was planning on using a Soler & Palau TD-150 to pull through a Can 33 filter and also cool the light (passive intakes if that is a factor). My primary concern is stealth, both noise and odor - I was burned before with uncontrollable odor and I have vowed not to let it happen again.

The S&P mixed vent fan became my first choice because it is supposed to be light years ahead of any centrifugal in terms of noise. However, it has been pointed out to me that the 6" TD-150 pulls 293cfm unrestricted, but that drops to 131 at 0.75" static pressure. Does this make it too hard for the fan to cool the light and vent the cab using a Can 33?

I know that I could easily change to a S&P centrifugal, but I feel that would be not be any better than any other centrifugal in the all-important noise department. If I dropped the size of the filter to a Can 9000, am I risking not being able to control the odor of a max of 4 plants in the cab?

 

[Lazyman]

If there's a question, I would never scale a filter size down, only up. I always recommend Vortex fans because I've used them for years and never had a problem, and they tend to move more air than most competitors. Speed controllers are a must if noise is an issue, so if you want to be extra safe I'd say a CAN50 and a Vortex 6", maybe add a small ozone generator outside your cab and even an Ona gel block for smell emergencies too. The peace of mind is worth ten times what you'll pay for your security.

 

[Batboy]

If there's a question, I would never scale a filter size down, only up. I always recommend Vortex fans because I've used them for years and never had a problem, and they tend to move more air than most competitors. Speed controllers are a must if noise is an issue, so if you want to be extra safe I'd say a CAN50 and a Vortex 6", maybe add a small ozone generator outside your cab and even an Ona gel block for smell emergencies too. The peace of mind is worth ten times what you'll pay for your security.

Thanks Lazy. I agree about the need for security, but part of that is noise. I have heard Vortex fans compared to jet engines, with speed controllers only moderately helping.

I'm going to have this uninsulated cab in an unfinished part of the basement. I don't want it audible through the single piece of drywall that separates the finished from the unfinished parts of the basement.

 

[spadedNfaded]

Vortex fans sound like jet engines because of the air movement in them. If you restrict the flow they tac up and make a bit of a "whining" noise comparable to a jet engine.

I like the vortex but it is a bit loud, insulated flex ducting and creating a fan box will help a lot.

You could look into efficient and very-low-sone fans like the Panasonic Whisper exhaust fans like these - http://www.pricelesshomecenter.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=600&idproduct=1998

They come in different sizes and have heard they are quite quiet.


** something else i just thought of, if you're not insulating the cab, i recommend using the insulated flex ducting for all of your exhaust duct. It's cheap and effective, $25 will get you a 25 or 50ft box at HomeDepot or Lowes. Also, look into creating a muffler, there are cheap and easy ones tyou can build in the DIY section HERE https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=40637. They may not be the right size or possible to make but by learning the fundementals of how and why to build them you can engineer your own plans.

- SubN

 

[K.J]

Thanks Lazy. I agree about the need for security, but part of that is noise. I have heard Vortex fans compared to jet engines, with speed controllers only moderately helping.

I'm going to have this uninsulated cab in an unfinished part of the basement. I don't want it audible through the single piece of drywall that separates the finished from the unfinished parts of the basement.

Definitely go with the centrifugal vortex type fan. We're using a 256cfm Canfan pulling through a CAN33 carbon filter and it works wonders. But we're also using a muffler, which is a bit large and unwieldy, but it cuts the DB by about 60% in my estimation. It's quiet enough that running water would mask it.

 

[FreezerBoy]

If noise is a concern, stay as far from Vortex style centrifugals as you can get. My 4" Elicent was the quietest centrifugal available at the time, 10dB quieter than the similar Vortex. Quadruple silenced, it was, with garage door open, audible at my neighbors door, across the street, more than 100 feet away. My garage, normally open to all, was forced into lockdown. Now neighbors were coming over asking why they never saw me in the garage anymore. Questions and stealth are a bad mix.

I love my S&P but, they just don't suck like a Vortex. I've a TDX 100 with a DIY scrubber. The filters 1" thick carbon bed, along with required turns in ducting, was taxing my cooling power. I rebuilt the filter to a 1/2" bed and, 8 weeks into flowering, smell is still contained.

I quess what I'm saying is, if you think the 150 will do, get the 200 instead or, build your own, thinner scrubber and change smaller amounts of carbon every 6 months instead of huge amounts every 2 years.

 

[EvilTwin]

Whisper line of Panasonic fans

Whisper line of Panasonic fans

Hi Batboy,
The Panasonic fans were suggested to me as being the quietest around. They're designed as bathroom exhaust fans but I've had one in use running 24 yours a day for over 2 years and it does a wonderful job. I have a vortex fan sitting in a cardboard box in my shop. I'll sell it cheap because it's noisy as hell! lol

Seriously these fans are so quiet, I have to touch them to be sure they're running.
ET

 

[Batboy]

So many different people with so many different pieces of advice. . . . certainly better than getting no advice at all. K.J. says Vortex with a muffler is quiet enough for running water to mask the sound, yet FreezerBoy is waking the neighbors with a quadruple silenced Vortex!

EvilTwin - what kind of filter are you using? Does that Panasonic really generate enough suction? It just looks so big and unwieldy for my 29 cubic foot space.

So many options. . . .

 

[FreezerBoy]

yet FreezerBoy is waking the neighbors with a quadruple silenced Vortex!

Excuse me for sloppy writing. While the sound crossed the street, it was no longer "Saturn V at Liftoff loud". Rather, "What is that small but utterly BIZARRE sound that has no excuse to live in a residential neighborhood doing in my neighborhood?" Now you're messing with 5 million years of survival instincts. Unexplained noises require explanation. Were the sound coming from the back of an auto body shop or commercial laundry, no one would blink.

Note also, this was with my garage door open. With the door down, fan control on full, insulated ducting, muffler, filter and fan isolation box, all hidden under a massive pile of foam, sound could be contained within the garage. Now that I add it all up, thats not 4X, it's 7X silencing. And it still blew my "hide in plain sight" stealth to hell.

If you avoid "plain sight" stealth and have a room for the fan where no one is EVER allowed to enter (say an attic) then get the Vortex. Nothing sucks like a Vortex. But, if people are allowed in the room the fan lives in. Panasonic and S&P deserve your attention.

 

[EvilTwin]

Hi Batboy,
I know the feeling about the wide variety of opinions. Look at a nute thread and it's even worse. The Panasonics I use are 240 cfms. They're inline obviously and essentially extremely balanced squrirel cage fans.

My filter is a cheapo unit I bought from an ebay seller. Carbon is about 1" thick all around. About 4 gallons altogether. Far as suction, all I can say is that the output side (on the other side of the wall outside my room) I can feel a significant breeze from it 15' away on the other side of that room. It's been scrubbing a 33 square foot grow area successfully (until the carbon needed replacement) and when I enlarged my room recently I added a second Panasonic as an intake fan. Yes they're a little bulkier so you'll have to weigh all that stuff when making your final decision.

I bought some stuff from a friend who quit growing. One item was a 450cfm vortex. By comparison, the vortex was ridiculously noisy. Perhaps with a speed controller, it would be tolerable.

Good luck...
ET

 

[Outportgrower]

I have a 6" Vortex, and it is loud but it can be controlled if you spend a little time in your planning. Once you add a filter and your ducting the sound drops. Add a baffle to the exhaust end and a little duct wrap on the portion of your ducting that exits the fan and you cooking. Toss in a speed controller and then you have very little to worry about.

Yes you can hear it, but you can also hear a bathroom fan or stove fan running. It is all about where you place things to have that sound seem to fit in to the environment. A clock radio on low covers up the sound of this 6" running wide open.

 

[FreezerBoy]

but you can also hear a bathroom fan or stove fan running.

A bathroom fan sounds like a bathroom fan. A stove fan sounds like a stove fan. A vortex sounds like several dozen Marijuana Fans™©® screaming "I Demand You Bust My Illegal Ass, NOW!"

Only 2 folks know of my grow. Only one got into the garage during the Centrifigul disaster. With 7X silencing on a fan already 10dB quieter than a Vortex, it took less than half a second for him to scrunch his face in disgust and demand , "What the HELL is that noise?"

No one hears the lion roaring in a zoo. The sound belongs there. Let a lion roar in your bedroom, you'll hear it real quick. Or you'll die. The wrong sound in the wrong place messes with 5 1/2 million years of survival instincts and demands explanation. If stealth is vital to your run, Vortex fans are dangerous to your health and safety.

 

[Peanut Butter]

Ever consider cooling the light independently of the room ventilation? Benefits 4 fold: unrestricted cooling of light meaning much more air flow even with a smaller fan, cooling fan can be turned off for 12 hours a day, disposing of hot exhaust air can be done rapidly with no need for filtering, and finally your ventilation fan has less restriction improving its performance.

If it was me, I'd use the S&P or a Stanly for ventilation and rig up one of the small Lasko personal blower fans to cool the light.

 

[Batboy]

Ever consider cooling the light independently of the room ventilation? Benefits 4 fold: unrestricted cooling of light meaning much more air flow even with a smaller fan, cooling fan can be turned off for 12 hours a day, disposing of hot exhaust air can be done rapidly with no need for filtering, and finally your ventilation fan has less restriction improving its performance.

If it was me, I'd use the S&P or a Stanly for ventilation and rig up one of the small Lasko personal blower fans to cool the light.

Today was the first day that I seriously considered using 2 separate fans. I'm just not sure of the logistics given the size of the cab and some concerns about getting sufficient electricity to the cab. What Lasko personal blower fans are you referring to?

Right now I am leaning towards getting the S&P TD-150 with the can 9000 filter and see if I can make it work. At least the filter is relatively cheap. If the filter or fan can't get the job done, I'll have to look at throwing more money at the problem. . .

 

[Peanut Butter]

its just a little $15 fan, http://www.amazon.com/Lasko-4904-Space-Saving-Pivoting-Task/dp/B000MFAOP4/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1249778895&sr=8-8

When used with little restriction they move a decent amount of air, and do it while being virtually silent. I'd be willing to bet the little Lasko would end up moving air faster over the bulb than the carbon filtered S&P.

another nice thing about running 2 separate fans is you will probably be able to turn down your ventilation fan, since your no longer depending on it to remove the heat of the lights.

 

[Batboy]

Hmmm

How much impact does going through the light have on the airflow?

What I mean is, does anybody want to try to quantify the cfm or % difference of:

filter-->fan-->6"cool tube-->exhaust
vs
filter-->fan-->exhaust
?

 

[Jnugg]

Things you can do to silence an inline centrifugal exhuast fan:

You can build an insulated fan box (this will silence the noise of the actual fan)

You can add a duct muffler to the exhuast side of the inline centrifugal (this cuts percieved hearing by 60db's and does not add any back pressure/static pressure).

Use insulated ducting.

Use oversized insulated ducting ie: 6" fan gets 8" insulated ducting (not only does this take care of some pressure drops but it will silence the sound of the air wooshing around in the ducting and exiting the ducting)

Slap a carbon filter on (this will add back pressure/static pressure.

I guarantee that if you used all those methods your inline centrifugal would be dead silent.

I am sick of seeing someone come on here and say oh no vortex fans are loud as a jet engine blah blah blah....what did you expect putting it up in your garage?!A garage is not carpeted or insulated like the rest of a home threfore noises will echo somewhat but that's just common sense.

I have a friend that blows up a whole bedroom and uses two 10" Can Fan's and you can't hear a damn thing becuase he used all the methods posted above,the most you would hear would be the equivalent of sitting in your house and the sound of the central A/C turning on or a refridgerator turning on and that is with 2x 10" Cab Fan's!