Best seed run strategies.

[covert]

Given 12 seeds what kinds of strategies are available to grow these with the goal to maintain as diverse a set of genes with the constraint of aiming towards maintaining psychoactivity.

1. Grow all at once with open pollination.

2. Grow in two exclusive groups at separate times with open pollenation in each case.

Perhaps grow a subset of each of these together to maintain a cross over population.

One can get fancy here and either a. keep the two seed groups apart or b. put them (seeds from the runs) all together and maintain over time.

3. Grow in smaller batches of 2,3,4 and treat groups separately or combined as above.

I like the smaller batch idea and would probably do 3 groups of four.

Any other strategy worth considering?

 

[Dropped Cat]

Depends on the size of your veg/flower area, and your goals.

If the seeds are one off, then pop and veg all, take cuttings,
and test in flower.

Go from there, open pollination to F4+, and some selections
back crossed to favorable selections from the original cuts,
male or female, your choice.

After a few years you may have a grasp of the process.


Keep us posted.

 

[mexweed]

don't count chickens before they hatch, 12 seeds could end up 8 seedlings

take pollen from the best performing male, there could potentially only be one and it may not have viable pollen, dust the females and then sample each finished female to decide which is the one closest to what you are looking for

diverse genes and narrowing down to the most psychoactive doesn't really mix, there will be a pheno that has a bit more sauce to it than the others

take your chosen pheno to f4 and then start considering working in the next best pheno with a male from those f1s to add some diversity

 

[coconutcurry]

Given 12 seeds what kinds of strategies are available to grow these with the goal to maintain as diverse a set of genes with the constraint of aiming towards maintaining psychoactivity.

1. Grow all at once with open pollination.

This is what I prefer. And then it depends on what you get. If you get 6 females and 6 males you are lucky. Because this means your plants produce 6 x 6 = 36 different progenies. If you get 5 females and 7 males you will get 5 x 7 = 35 different progenies and if there are 4 females and 8 males there will only be 4 x 8 = 32 different progenies.
But if you have bad luck like me and you get only 7 healthy plants out of 12 seeds, then there will be much less progenies. I have 5 females and 2 males what means 10 different progenies.

And if I have only so less seeds, I generally use all plants, except cripples or hermies, to get the most diverse set of genes.

And I don't understand why you want to grow your seeds by and by, because the female/male rate will not be influenced by this. And if you grow 4 seeds for example and you get 4 males - this is no advantage. And even if there would be 2 females and 2 males - this two males could only pollinate this two females. And there could have been a couple of other females among the other seeds. Progenies you would lose.

 

[I wood]

Option 1 is better for all the above reasons.
Also when doing small batches there is always the possibility of something stopping you halfway, leaving you with limited diversity in what you have made so far.
I messed around for years with a few of each before deciding to focus on one real reproduction at a time. If preserving the line and working it later is the goal one big open pollination gets you there faster and with maximum diversity. Once you have a huge pile of seed produced then you can spend the rest of your life exploring them a few at a time.

 

[romanoweed]

i opened a Thread, from wich i got the Idea, that possibly open Pollination will not really work for to improove a Line. Memmber Fuel brought some Ideas, wich seemed to tell: there is a Dynamic in the Line, and therefor neutral open Pollination wont be neutral. here: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=363369
So therefore one should concentrate on the dynamical Changes in a Line, and as soulution, there per ex.: Selection. The stronger the Selection, the more Genetic diversity is left behind and the more you will have you choosen Traits highlightet.


The Parameters you can Change are: how many Plants you choose to work with further on. In other words: you could also choose mostly all Plants and cull the bad 20 Percent wild`ish Plants. In such a Scenario, you could very likely not cross every individual Plant with each other, to bigscale, so you would then open pollinate them.






For me thats my first question, how strong i will select... thowards open poll, high genetic preservation, but dangerous dynamic/wilderisation . thowards selection: small genetic preservation, but no danger of dynamic. Now its your decision, if you want rather the one or the other.. or you could bouth seeratly, or choose the middleway. (in Case selection strong, you can run multiple lines, and at home,you probably can do 3/4 Lines, like the Potency Line, the taste-Lines, the Robustness-Line, and later cross together. This seems to be the most etablished Method. Im PERSONALLY Abit more focussed on genetic preservation, but actually in high quantities this selecting many many many lines each separate would be probably a good Method to nearly carry on the whole Genetic, without the dangerous Dynamic, but who runs factory-halls of breeding-projects..?)


one more Thing: i think at first i would often doo an open poll. So incase you selected in the wrong way, or whatever, you can take that open Pollination, to start from scratch, or to fill in the Gap you created in a Line. (not to fix a missselection! rather fill in Gaps)


a last Thing: you shall never fix things later, once you ralize your choosen Plants has not the promised offspring when replanting, you should never think i will fx that later.. Its important to do it right from the beginning, otherwise you walk into the dark. So once you realize you made to much misselection, you will have to go back to your previous Line, so you should saved those previous Seeds incase. (This was rather a Shortcut from what i remember Member Fuel telling me in my linked Thread, meaning: i dont just beileve it, like rather never do, its just the way it was explained sounded Kind of like possible groundbasis)

 

[GoatCheese]

Yea, i'd grow them all at once too if preservation is your thing. If you really want to preserve your genetics you want all the good males pollinating every good female.


To achieve a fairly even "open" pollination from every male you should bloom the males in a different room/tent/cab; then collect pollen from every male (even portions) which you should then mix very, very well before dusting the females with it.
..because when you're flowering males and females together in a small space where fans are moving the air, the earliest male can pollinate every female pretty well alone if the pollen sacks on the other males aren't ready at this point. What if the best male(s) is the late blooming pheno and now there is no pistils for him to pollinate anymore because the early males got all or most of the pistils already.
So it would be better to flower the males in a separate space if you just can come up with something.

If you flower the males as fairly small cuttings/clones (2-3 weeks veg after rooting) you can flower them in 1 litre soda bottles of soil, so you won't need a big set up to flower bunch of males. 100w of cfl bulbs will flower quite a many small soda bottle male plants. You will normally flower them only for 5 weeks or something till the females have been pollinated, so they wont take a huge space for long if you have to improvise with the set up, a kitchen cupboard or something.



Personally for me, i ask "do i wanna preserve shitty genes" cause i'm not a full-on landrace puff, so i try to pick the best 2-3 males and then flower them one by one; meaning i would then make 2-3 sets of seeds with the best females. Tidious, but if then only one of those males was good enough after all or one of the males would bring in hermie traits (like pistils in later bloom), then i would have atleast one good set of seeds without influence of the possible dodgy/hermie males.
..because not every female plant that looks really good is a very good/potent smoke too. And some good looking females grow bananas/pollen sacks. Same applies to male.


Good luck with your project.

 

[CannaZen]

We got this far. for something original select seeds to save, let them pollinate on their own terms par outdoor. I've seen the way in that which they pollinate. the timing is electic during wind impulse. its as if they select of their own. like why pollen isnt all quite lost in the wind to somehow flyback the minute amount of pollen (like a random pollen) so much, no. The pollen sacks wiggle but dont release on just any wind. i saw a plant ghost shot pollen at another plant plant at the right time when the wind was blowing in just the right direction, the wiggling snap of all sacks vibrating in unison like bell select, electrical impulse through the ground the plants elect; send.


you want your heartiest plant legal right?

 

[romanoweed]

Now what i will probably doo since im only interested in preserving my Seedlines as they are due to that i never heard someone was able to provide trippyer Lines trough modern breeding, than original LAndraces (if you read about 70s Gemstone HAllucinogen Lines), wich doesent mean its impossible, is:


I will run1: one selection Line probably with 3/4 different Traits separate.
and run 2: one nearly open pollinated Line, with mnimal out-seleting 20 Percent of wild`ish Plants.


So, if my selected line become to narrow: i have still the open line, if my open pollinated gets to wildish, i still have the selected line.


Since im a Little homegrower, i will probably stick to this two wellknown Methods. I could hypothetically carry this traditional Landraces further 100 Percent like they was, but my Energy and the Law/Proportions doesent allow that. So, thats what i will doo, aswell i will try to do as less needed further Generations, since like said theoriginal 70s Landraces are already golden, so good Seedstorage will be a part of my todoo`s, to allow as less possible further Generations.

 

[coconutcurry]

Y
If you flower the males as fairly small cuttings/clones (2-3 weeks veg after rooting) you can flower them in 1 litre soda bottles of soil, so you won't need a big set up to flower bunch of males. 100w of cfl bulbs will flower quite a many small soda bottle male plants. You will normally flower them only for 5 weeks or something till the females have been pollinated, so they wont take a huge space for long if you have to improvise with the set up, a kitchen cupboard or something.

This is what I'm doing.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=8724489#post8724489

But I use 1 gallon pots and 6 x 18 W neon tubes (Osram color 865). The neon tubes are perfect for seedlings, clones and little plants. Just fixed the tubes on a shelf and hang it at the ceiling with a chain and placed some styrofoam sheets around and underneath the plants. This is very cheap, simple and works very well.

 

[GoatCheese]

This is what I'm doing.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=8724489#post8724489

But I use 1 gallon pots and 6 x 18 W neon tubes (Osram color 865). The neon tubes are perfect for seedlings, clones and little plants. Just fixed the tubes on a shelf and hang it at the ceiling with a chain and placed some styrofoam sheets around and underneath the plants. This is very cheap, simple and works very well.

Yea, you can do a lot with few fluoros/cfl bulbs and a small space.
..LED strips under the kitchen sink might work too.
The good thing with fluoros or leds is that you don't need a fan in the grow area so the pollen won't fly all over the place and mostly stays on the plant till i can collect it on a dinner plate.
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Nice project there, Coconut.
For your next male run try flowering them in even smaller pots (less soil). I've flowered males in 3,5 litre pots under fluoros, which is little under 1 gallon, and i think it was too much root space for fluro light grow. Plants grew too big for my liking. I'd say 2 litres or maybe even less (half a gallon) is plenty enough for those males you were flowering under those 18w fluoros.


Here's an Afghan Kush male i flowered a while ago. It grew in about ½ gallon (under 2 litres) of soil and it gave me plenty of pollen to freeze. It was maybe 40-50 cm tall when i took this photo. Grown under 75w of 3500k fluoros.

 

[coconutcurry]

...
For your next male run try flowering them in even smaller pots (less soil)...

This is one of my plants and it is about 40 cm tall. The size is very O.K. for me and I need bigger pots because I can't visit my plants daily. A 1 Liter pot gets dry too fast for me.

...it gave me plenty of pollen to freeze....

Nice plant. I know it is possible to freeze the pollen, but I never did. Can you tell more? Do you dry the pollen before freezing (silica gel?) What temperature? How long can you storage?

 

[GoatCheese]

Yea, i absolutely recommend freezing pollen. I read from Sam Skunkman that he has used 17 year old frozen pollen that was still viable.


I don't dry the pollen before i freeze it, but i live in the North so humidity isn't usually a problem for me. Maybe during the summer i might put it away for day or two before freezing but i have always frozen it right after collecting..
..thou i collect pollen only once a week so it has time to sit on the plants and dry out abit. I also clean all the plant matter bits out of the pollen which can hold moisture.


I bought 1,5ml plastic vials from ebay which i wash before use. ..Q-tip and mild soap water. Make sure they are dry before putting any pollen in them, so i'd say, wash the vials many days before use.
I collect the pollen of the plant to a dinner plate, clean it and then scoop it into the vials using a flexible thin piece of plastic lid (out of a yogurt or something) that i have cut straight at the other end.

I fill the vials about little under half way and put little piece of clean film in there to hold the pollen in place. Careful not to press it too much so the pollen will stay loose. And then i top the vial with some grains of rice. Silica pellets would be better but i can't be bothered to find any.
After that i wrap the vial on clean film, tape it close, then put 2-4 vials/per bag in small mini-grip baggies which i then store in air tight plastic containers with one or two small silica bags in them
..and into the freezer they go.


edit PS.
When i bought these vials i got larger ones for seed storage. There are many different sizes of these.

I just checked some ebay prices..
50 of these 1,5ml vials under 2 euros. Free shipping
6cm x 8cm mini-grip baggies little over 1 euro for 100 pieces. Free shipping

 

[romanoweed]

I wanna add: from my two Lines
1: selected Lines 2: nearly open pollination , the selected one consists out of 3/4 separate Selections, if i doo them all separate, i have actually 3/4 Lines..


but i think i will also open pollinate These 3/4 selected ones together, and therefore have it just in one Line. So much less work, but i will look on for 3/4 traits on its own, but openpollinate.

 

[coconutcurry]

Yea, i absolutely recommend freezing pollen....

Thanx for the information. I will do this next time for sure. I regret I didn't freeze some of my GTH #1 pollen.

 

[CannaZen]

Some traits are worth preserving :: selecting, controlled selection could be advanced method. A sampling technique is defined as introducing control into the selection of n out of N sampling units when it increases the probabilities of selection for preferred units. introducing entropy to bubble from start to the beginning.

What do you mean by sampling error?
In statistics, sampling error is the error caused by observing a sample instead of the whole population. The sampling error is the difference between a sample statistic used to estimate a population parameter and the actual but unknown value of the parameter.

focus on n instead of N

What is sampling with replacement?

In the context of market research, a sampling unit is an individual person. The term sampling unit refers to a singular value within a sample database. For example, if you were conducting research using a sample of university students, a single university student would be a sampling unit.

What is sampling with replacement?
Definition: When a sampling unit is drawn from a finite population and is returned to that population, after its characteristic(s) have been recorded, before the next unit is drawn, the sampling is said to be “with replacement”. In the contrary case the sampling is “without replacement”.

What does it mean when sampling is done without replacement?
In sampling without replacement, each sample unit of the population has only one chance to be selected in the sample. For example, if one draws a simple random sample such that no unit occurs more than one time in the sample, the sample is drawn without replacement.Jan

What is Srswr?
SRSWR is a method of selection of n units out of the N units one by one such that at each stage of selection each unit has equal chance of being selected, i.e., 1/ .N . Procedure of selection of a random sample: ... In case of SRSWR, all the random numbers are accepted ever if repeated more than once.

in programming this is the for-loop if irc;

The axiom of choice is needed to ensure that every vector space has a [Hamel] basis. It is needed to ensure that every commutative ring with a unit has a maximal ideal. ... Pretty much anything, if it needs the axiom of choice in a substantial way, it means that it can fail without the axiom of choice

*axion selection

In computer science, a for-loop (or simply for loop) is a control flow statement for specifying iteration, which allows code to be executed repeatedly. ... For-loops are typically used when the number of iterations is known before entering the loop

quaternions are more advanced calculation/.
like pulling 0.23 thcv to 6 and above, math explaining how geno is evolved pheno and what is done. if the plants carry a signal in selection it can mean genes for neuro network math in the ground. know electromagnetic radiation and hemp research

"cooked" cannabis bark into carbon nanosheets and built supercapacitors "on a par with or better than graphene" - the industry gold standard.

i mean yeah plants have energy capacity electrons. Observed signal bursts traversing the ground at pollen ghost, something i saw.

SamplingTheory simple Random Sampling Simple random sampling (SRS) is a method of selection of a sample comprising of n number of sampling units out of the population having N number of sampling units such that every sampling unit has an equal chance of being chosen.

 

[TychoMonolyth]

Best seed run?

Pop a few. Collect pollen and let daddy have his was openly with the females.

Pop the rest. Take your (or some) pollen and put it in a large freezer bag, zip close and shake well. Once you have lots of flowers/colas with WHITE hairs, slide the freezer bag over a cola like a condom and stroke it well. Next cola. Keep it up until you think the flowers have had enough. You'll be loaded with seed and enough for years.

Two big plants gave me 12k seeds.

 

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[art.spliff]

Wishing I'd sprung for expedited shipping. Fingers crossed they make a safe journey

discovery: international shipping cost is directional, uk or canada -> california has lower postage than california -> canada/uk

this relates to Breeder Steve's discussion of cannabis taxes and trade tariffs or world global trade whatever you want to call it
if it costs me more to ship in one direction there is no way i can sustainably export product because it costs a different price A->B as it does B->A, hence a racket or explain it however you so desire
the idea might not be so obvious it bonks you right over the head but if you have a business selling items for a penny then it will become obvious

 

[Fitzera]

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hmm that looks familiar...Tyco, you didnt put those stickers on yourself did you? I assumed my package was reused, but seeing stickers on another makes me question maybe you have a sticker fetish