Bad nute burn

[MPL]

Alright, so I got a couple of nice Sensi Star clones the other day. They looked like they had had a few heat problems in their lives, but nothing terrible.

So I stuck them in my E&F table and let them go. The reservoir is labeled for 14 gallons so I measured nutes for 13 and left left it short one gallon. After a few days of noticing very little growth and a general worsening of the plant's health, I pulled the res, double checked pH and mixed up a new batch of nutes. This time, I measured the capacity of the reservoir and found that, maximum, it would hold 11 gallons. So I had 13 gallons worth of nutes in about 10 gallons of water. Needless to say, my plants were badly burned. They are clawing like mad, and look like they have P and K deficiencies. I know they aren't deficiencies, that's just how they look.

So, I have pulled them from the E&F tray. I have them in 6" netpots filled with hydroton, so I just pulled up the pots and poured fresh RO water over where the roots would be. They're just sitting outside right now in some shaded sunlight.

My questionS: how long would they usually take to recover and is there anything I can do to help them along? I can always stick them in some soil and grow a different strain for now, if they are going to take awhile. Also, rockwool was used to clone them - should I adjust my flood interval until they develop a lot of roots outside the rockwool? I ask because it seems the rockwool holds water especially well, and the plants do look a bit overwatered. Currently they are flooding every 3 hours for 15 minutes under 400w.

No pics unfortunately.

HYDROPONICS/Aero Ponics

How long has this problem been going on? *4
What system are you running? (DWC? Ebb flow? Aero? Water Farm? Flood Tables? and so on...) *E&F
What STRAIN are you growing? *SENSI STAR
What was the establishing technique? (Were the seed or clone?) *CLONE
What is the age of your plants? *4 days at my grow
How tall are the plants? *4"
What PHASE are the plants in? (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in? *VEG
What Technique are you using?
What substrate/medium are you using?(Hydroton, RockWool etc.) *2"x2"x2" ROCKWOOL FOR THEM TO ROOT IN, HYDROTON FOR MEDIUM
What is the Water temperature? *69f-72f
What color are your roots? White? Brown? Are your roots slimy? * SOME ARE BROWN, BUT ONLY DUE TO NUTE STAINING. THEY ARE HEALTHY ROOTS.
What Nutrient's are you using? How much of each if using multiple? *6mL/GALLON FLORANOVA GROW (PROBABLY ABOUT 10mL/GALLON WHEN I FIRST MIXED NUTES BECAUSE OF THE BAD LABEL)
What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using? *N/A
What is the pH of the "Tank"? *5.7 - 6.2 I LET IT SWING A LITTLE
Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equiptment? *100%
When was your last watering? *E&F
What is your water temps? *69-72
When was your last feeding change? (ie. grow-bloom-micro-additional) *NA
How often do you clean your system: example: Flush out water replace with clean water and nutrients? *NA
What size bulb are you using? *400W
What is the distance to the canopy? *14"
What is your RH Factor(Relative Humidity)? *N/A BUT LOW
What is the canopy temperature? *70F NIGHT/80F DAY
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include flucutaion range)
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.) *200
Is the fan blowing directly at plants? *I HAVE A FAN ON THE PLANTS
Is your water HARD or SOFT? *NA
What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water? *RO
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinched NA
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so, What and When? NA
Are plant's infected with pest's NA

 

[CannaZine]

Hi there;

New member, thought I would say hi.

If the roots are yet to spill out of the rockwool cubes chances are the root mass (or lack of one) is not able to take the flooding regime you're using. Also as the cubes will hold ton's of water around the base of the stem, you're running the risk of damping off disease too.

When I've grown hydro I always like to make sure there are plenty of roots out of the cubes, before placing into the system. Only then can I be sure they are able to take a regular (read:automated) feed regime.

As for your nute burn issue a couple of days flushing with pH adjusted water and nothing else, should see them turn round pretty quick. They'll be hungry and spewing roots out the cubes before you know it.

Cheers, and good luck.

red dragon

 

[MPL]

That's kinda what I was thinking. Should I pull the plants out of the rockwool and treat them like clones until they get better roots? One of them has quite a good number of roots hanging out the bottom of the cube. The other, not so much.

I'll pH my water to 6.0 and nail them with that once the rockwool dries out more.

I hate rockwool. I need an aerocloner so I don't have any medium on the roots when I put them in my system.

Hi there;

New member, thought I would say hi.

If the roots are yet to spill out of the rockwool cubes chances are the root mass (or lack of one) is not able to take the flooding regime you're using. Also as the cubes will hold ton's of water around the base of the stem, you're running the risk of damping off disease too.

When I've grown hydro I always like to make sure there are plenty of roots out of the cubes, before placing into the system. Only then can I be sure they are able to take a regular (read:automated) feed regime.

As for your nute burn issue a couple of days flushing with pH adjusted water and nothing else, should see them turn round pretty quick. They'll be hungry and spewing roots out the cubes before you know it.

Cheers, and good luck.

red dragon

 

[CannaZine]

I wouldn't pull them out the cubes now. That will do more damage than good.

If you have a flat tray you could keep the cubes in, surrounding the cubes with perlite will give the roots somewhere dark and moist to live until they have grown on a bit and are ready for their final destination.

Once you need to put them in a grow system, the perlite is easy to get the roots out of with a minimum of damage. A quick dip in a bucket of water and they are clinical clean, and ready for NFT/E&F etc.

Good luck

red dragon

 

[MPL]

Sorry, I meant pull them out of the hydroton and let them just sit in the cubes.

I think I'll leave them in the hydroton as that will keep it dark for them, and there is plenty of moisture in the rockwool for now.

Thanks!

I wouldn't pull them out the cubes now. That will do more damage than good.

If you have a flat tray you could keep the cubes in, surrounding the cubes with perlite will give the roots somewhere dark and moist to live until they have grown on a bit and are ready for their final destination.

Once you need to put them in a grow system, the perlite is easy to get the roots out of with a minimum of damage. A quick dip in a bucket of water and they are clinical clean, and ready for NFT/E&F etc.

Good luck

red dragon

 

[JohnnyToke]

a suggestion, use jiffy peat pellets instead of rockwool cubes. they can be buried in soil or hydroton once the roots are showing. I have no issues with these like I did with the rockwool cubes. they are cheap too. walmart carries 25 packs for about $2.

works for me.

regards,
JT

 

[MPL]

I didn't take the cuts or I don't think I'd have used any medium. I'm building an aerocloner now.

a suggestion, use jiffy peat pellets instead of rockwool cubes. they can be buried in soil or hydroton once the roots are showing. I have no issues with these like I did with the rockwool cubes. they are cheap too. walmart carries 25 packs for about $2.

works for me.

regards,
JT

 

[MPL]

Alright, so it has been awhile and no improvement. I've cut off a few of the larger fan leaves that were about dead. I figured out the problem with my RO/DI unit and refilled the res with fresh nutes.

When I first realized what was going on I gave them fresh clean water every 4-6 hours by hand (they were still on the E&F table, I just turned off the pump). After two days of this I mixed in 1/4 tsp. / gallon of FNGrow and fed them this every 4-6 hours. After a couple of days of this I dumped the res and refilled with fresh nutes (FNGrow) @ 7.5mL/gallon and pH'd it to 5.7. I set the timer to water every 4 hours. The next day the pH was at 6.3. I left it alone and set the timer for every 3 hours. Today, the plants are looking just a bit worse (they look like they are still burning), so I pulled 20% of the reservoir and dumped it, replacing with pure H2O. I pH'd it to 6.0 and am hoping for the best.

They have not grown one bit and are slowly getting worse since the initial massive burn. I wish I had some pics. I'm not sure what else to do other than wait, but I'm starting to think I might be better off sticking these girls into a pot of soil and picking up a new set of clones and starting over. It's been almost 2 weeks and that is wasting a lot of time. I should be ready to start 12/12 right now, and they're still sickly, tiny, spindly shitty looking little plants.

Any ideas? I'm really peeved about this whole situation. I'm also not even sure I can get more Sensi Star clones, and I have really, really been wanting to grow this out. The person who I got them from thinks they may even be the Ogre pheno.

 

[HeadyPete]

On JohnnyToke's point: If you are growing hydro then you should clone your plants hydro. When you do this they develop the thick water roots needed in a hydro system.

When you start clones in a soil like jiffypeat or any soil, the plants grow soil roots and root hairs (no root hairs in hydro) to extract water and nutes from every part of the soil. They have to go searching for it so they develop very fine roots to do this. In hydro there is always a plentiful source of water/nutes so the plant needs the thick water roots to deal with this.

If you put soil grown plants into hydro there will be issues when the root hairs die from drowning and the plant needs to start growing water roots. Your plants will be healthier and grow faster if they are started from the beginning to grow the correct type of roots.

Also, JT, you may have had rockwool issues if you didn't correct the ph of them. The are very alkaline at first, until the natural calcium and magnesium in the basalt rock used to make RW dissolves away in water. These act like lime in soil as a ph raiser and buffer. I do not recommend RW at all because of the mining and environment destruction in getting the raw materials, the enormous energy used to heat rock and spin rockwool, and the health hazard they pose to your lungs, akin to asbestos.

I would have to recommend the coco plugs as the best product of this type. I believe coco is the best grow media for a number of reasons.

 

[MPL]

I did not know this, but now that you have mentioned it I remember seeing that the hydro roots my friend had always looked different than my soil roots.

They look like they might have started growing again, so hopefully all is well.

I'm in the process of getting an aerocloner built, so this should be perfect for me in the future!

As always, thanks Pete!

On JohnnyToke's point: If you are growing hydro then you should clone your plants hydro. When you do this they develop the thick water roots needed in a hydro system.

When you start clones in a soil like jiffypeat or any soil, the plants grow soil roots and root hairs (no root hairs in hydro) to extract water and nutes from every part of the soil. They have to go searching for it so they develop very fine roots to do this. In hydro there is always a plentiful source of water/nutes so the plant needs the thick water roots to deal with this.

If you put soil grown plants into hydro there will be issues when the root hairs die from drowning and the plant needs to start growing water roots. Your plants will be healthier and grow faster if they are started from the beginning to grow the correct type of roots.

 

[HeadyPete]

my pleasure

 

[Raistlin Majere]

On JohnnyToke's point: If you are growing hydro then you should clone your plants hydro. When you do this they develop the thick water roots needed in a hydro system.

When you start clones in a soil like jiffypeat or any soil, the plants grow soil roots and root hairs (no root hairs in hydro) to extract water and nutes from every part of the soil. They have to go searching for it so they develop very fine roots to do this. In hydro there is always a plentiful source of water/nutes so the plant needs the thick water roots to deal with this.

If you put soil grown plants into hydro there will be issues when the root hairs die from drowning and the plant needs to start growing water roots. Your plants will be healthier and grow faster if they are started from the beginning to grow the correct type of roots.

good info
a highjacking if you don't mind
HP if clones are rooted with water how is the transfer to soil ?
do they adapt well and grow those root hairs ?
thanks

 

[MPL]

No problem, hijack away!



I think that you can go from hydro to soil without any serious problems, but going from soil to hydro is very different. I read a thread where this guy pulled several plants out of soil when he was about to flower and dumped them into a DWC. If I remember correctly, it took a good two weeks for the plants to stop looking like they were going to die, and another two weeks for them to start growing again. I could be wrong though, as I know I don't have the best memory.

good info
a highjacking if you don't mind
HP if clones are rooted with water how is the transfer to soil ?
do they adapt well and grow those root hairs ?
thanks

 

[HeadyPete]

That sounds about right, MPL. What a horror story! What a thing to do to your plants! When those soil plants went into water, the fine root hairs drowned and died and rotted (also messing up the rez solution), and the plants needed time to grow roots that could withstand the constant immersion. That's why it wilted and definitely put on 4 weeks of delay while the plant adapted and grew new roots. No doubt that put a serious cut in his yield.

Raistlin Majere, I would think that water roots in soil would have similar trouble taking up water until those root hairs develop and the web of roots grows enough to adequately harvest the much more scarce supply of water from the soil media. It works, but you are putting unnecessary stress and time on your clones and this cancels out the benefit of "fast hydro cloning" IMO.

I just take my cuts and put em in 4" round pots filled with my cocomix, cover with dome and mist until new growth shows. I like this because the roots are undisturbed until the plant is hardy and ready for transplant. A variation of this method was successful even with the notoriously difficult to clone Sugabear OB1 (jusk ask him :wink. This one took 36 days!!! but she cloned, bloomed, and got smoked. I started in a peat pellet (which I now consider unnecessary) sitting in a dome covered pot half full of coco mix. When I saw root tips in the peat pellet, I filled the pot all the way with cocomix.

No matter which way you go, you are causing the plants shock and delay as they have to adapt to their new root conditions. I wouldn't recommend either method. If you grow in soil, start in soil. If you are hydro, start in hydro.

BTW, roots can only survive in water if that water is adequately oxygenated. Roots in soil get oxygen from the air spaces in the media, water roots get it from the circulation of the hydro system. It's the interaction of water and air at the surface of the water that allows fresh O2 to absorb into the water. Contrary to popular belief, a bubbler does not put air into the water, the bubbles break up the surface of the water and creates a much larger surface area (from agitation and circulation) for oxygen to absorb into the water.

I have the philosophy that the least harm is best for the plant and I am always looking at ways to improve upon this.

*** I edited my above post to include some thoughts on rockwool and why JToke might have had problems. For the record I do not recommend rockwool, as explained above.