Are there any regular flowing strains which cannot be hybridized to have the autoflowering characteristic?

[Chuck Jägerschnitzel]

I have a seed variety that I've tried to make an auto hybrid with twice and I am currently in the midst of coming up with no autos in the F2 generation for the second time and I don't know if I'm doing something wrong or if I'm unknowingly attempting the impossible. The first time I failed, I had also used the same auto male with other regular flowering varieties and was able to produce autoflowering seeds from hybrids of the other regular strains using the same pollen. Same story the 2nd time too, I've already verified with a different hybrid.
I don't know much about the topic of auto breeding beyond Punnett squares and what I've experienced from growing and breeding autos. My experience mostly lines up pretty exactly with what the Punnett squares predict, other than this one case.
So I looked up what I could on the topic and came across the idea of tightly linked genes, which might explain whats going on and I developed another crackpot theory about temperatures which probably isn't worth repeating, but I still don't know if I'm just imagining it all and getting extraordinarily unlucky with the F2s or making some other mistake and if I should try again or give up.
Heres a photo of my latest failure, my plan was to pack them in and then kill the ones that failed to autoflower, which would have left me with just about the right number of plants if I'd gotten 25% autos, but instead I got no autos. My previous run was the same scheme, I lucked out & got 8 autos from 27 seeds, 7 male.

 

[goingrey]

That's interesting. How many plants are there in that "failure" and how long did you veg them before coming to the all-photo conclusion?

 

[Chuck Jägerschnitzel]

That grow was 26 sprouts, theres currently 11 remaining. I let them all grow out at least until the start of branch growth at the 5th node was visible, some got a little bigger than that. In all of my successful auto grows, which is every single one except for two cracks at hydrids with this one strain of regulars, I've seen the first appearance of sex organs generally when the branches start growing out of the 4th node. On my previous attempt at making an auto hybrid with the disobedient regulars, it was outdoors and I let them veg until they were about 18" tall or so and 7 or 8 nodes high with no signs of impending flowering action before I gave up. I'm far enough north that I can test for autoflowering outdoors in June if I start them mid May or so.
And of course I'm doubtful on the last 11 plants I currently have because of the supposedly low likelihood of striking out on the faster group. Plus the last 11 are all wimpy & scrawny looking, they don't look like they could do anything good if they wanted to, they're mostly ones that got trapped in the shade of the healthier sprouts, but they'll get their fair chance now that the canopy is cleared out.

 

[Creeperpark]

Thats interesting. You have to re-run them over and over before you can get auto-flowering as the dominant strain. It takes a lot of work and patience with the time needed. It would be hard to cross a reg and auto in 2 runs. Plus using 100 or so cuts would give you a better ratio option. Keep us posted if you don't mind because your work is interesting.

 

[Chuck Jägerschnitzel]

That sounds like a lot of work, the regular flowering strain that I'm failing to translate to autoflowering blossoms very late in the season outdoors, which is why I want to make an auto out of it, so I can grow it outside and harvest it before November. If it steadfastly refuses to uptake any autoflowering characteristics then maybe I'll just continue to flower it with light deprivation, I got a good result that way last summer. I have other autoflower projects which are actually working out, I might be better off focusing on those instead of stubbornly banging my head against something I can't get to function. I kinda started this thread hoping to find an excuse to give up, if there are regular flowing strains which cannot be hybridized to have the autoflowering characteristic then I'm free, but so far nobody is telling me that there is regular strains like that.

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[Creeperpark]

That sounds like a lot of work, the regular flowering strain that I'm failing to translate to autoflowering blossoms very late in the season outdoors, which is why I want to make an auto out of it, so I can grow it outside and harvest it before November. If it steadfastly refuses to uptake any autoflowering characteristics then maybe I'll just continue to flower it with light deprivation, I got a good result that way last summer. I have other autoflower projects which are actually working out, I might be better off focusing on those instead of stubbornly banging my head against something I can't get to function. I kinda started this thread hoping to find an excuse to give up, if there are regular flowing strains which cannot be hybridized to have the autoflowering characteristic then I'm free, but so far nobody is telling me that there is regular strains like that.

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If you start with a true Cannabis ruderalis as the breeder strain you would have more control and maybe better results. Ace seed company has a strain called Siberian Ruderalis that may help you with your work. Anyway keep us posted and thanks for sharing your work.

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[Mudballs2.0]

Punnet square is based on perfect, unadulterated P1's...which means you took the parents to F6 and made a homozygous population. If that's not the case, the punnet square output will not be what you think it should be. If the P1's are the least bit mutt then that recessive autoflower trait could be reduced. Yes, everyone thinks an F1 pairing is 50/50 and it is but the alleles arent
A single trait Punnett Square tracks two alleles for each parent. The square has two rows and two columns. Adding more traits increases the size of the Punnett Square.
so now with that you may have to germ 200:1 to see the recessive autoflower in F2...it's not black and white im afraid.
And even if you told me the exact parentage i could only give you ballpark idea of numbers needed...a good starting seed germ number for some trait buried deep you want to find would be 200:1
Please dont ask me how i came up with that.

 

[Bzh guerilla]

hi, what is the male autoflower variety and the one you are trying to reproduce?

 

[Lester Beans]

Perhaps choose a short flowering photoperiod plant to use for your cross. Then select for early ripening.

C99 for sativa leaning strains or an an Affie for indica leaning strains.

You could achieve you goal and keep the hay genes out of your genepool.

 

[goingrey]

That grow was 26 sprouts, theres currently 11 remaining. I let them all grow out at least until the start of branch growth at the 5th node was visible, some got a little bigger than that. In all of my successful auto grows, which is every single one except for two cracks at hydrids with this one strain of regulars, I've seen the first appearance of sex organs generally when the branches start growing out of the 4th node. On my previous attempt at making an auto hybrid with the disobedient regulars, it was outdoors and I let them veg until they were about 18" tall or so and 7 or 8 nodes high with no signs of impending flowering action before I gave up. I'm far enough north that I can test for autoflowering outdoors in June if I start them mid May or so.
And of course I'm doubtful on the last 11 plants I currently have because of the supposedly low likelihood of striking out on the faster group. Plus the last 11 are all wimpy & scrawny looking, they don't look like they could do anything good if they wanted to, they're mostly ones that got trapped in the shade of the healthier sprouts, but they'll get their fair chance now that the canopy is cleared out.

Ok so my theory is that one or more of the grandparents is a late-blooming variety and they just weren't mature enough yet at the 4-8 nodes.

Auto or not, if this means it won't be suitable for your season, maybe time to start over with a different cross.

 

[Chuck Jägerschnitzel]

Looks like one of the 11 sissy plants that got trapped in the understory is going autoflower, sorry for the false alarm. I was in the depths of despair when I started this thread and probably not thinking clearly, I could've just waited a day or two before leaping to conclusions that something weird was going on. I removed all the faster growing plants, but I didn't wait to see what happened next.
Thanks for all the advice in this thread, I was already trying to use what I read here to try and figure out a potentially better approach for a 3rd crack at it which now looks like it won't be needed.

hi, what is the male autoflower variety and the one you are trying to reproduce?

What I've got is Poly the polyhybrid autoflower crossed to (South African Mystery Meat x Jägerschnitzel). I think I might have an idea of what South African Mystery Meat (SAMM) is, but as you can see from the action in this thread so far, I am prone to leaping to wrong conclusions.

 

[Chuck Jägerschnitzel]

Here is the scene currently, I ended up with the lone male auto when I should've been expecting 6 or 7 autos, so I still feel like SAMM is somehow resistant to converting to auto, maybe, or maybe I just got bad luck with it twice in a row. The regular flowering plants in there are 4x(SAMM x Jägerschnitzel), 2x SAMM and 2x(SAMM x Trainwreck), so it looks like I will have some more opportunities later on to see if my bad luck making SAMM genes into an autoflowering genes continues.
SAMM is not an outdoor performer in my climate due to later flowering, thats my I got interested in converting it to auto to begin with, but its a great tasting plant when it gets to grow in nice conditions. I flowered one early using light deprivation last summer, excellent smoke. The SAMM x TW F1 regulars came out smelling like a musty, yeasty stagnant swamp. Not something I had encountered before, reminded me of visiting my best guerilla spot back in old virginny.

 

[Chuck Jägerschnitzel]

The next stage of the grow has been reached, I killed the male plant yesterday & now I plan to keep the females going indoors for a few more weeks, then I'll probably put them into my little greenhouse until they're ready to harvest. I gave his stem a little swat before taking this picture, you can see the cloud of pollen showing up a little if you look close.

 

[Chuck Jägerschnitzel]

Here is SAMM with seed starting to form

SAMM x Jägerschnitzel

Trainwreck x SAMM

I'm not all to disappointed I didn't get any female autos, I didn't want more polyhybrid auto seeds anyway. The eventual 75% pure SAMM x Jägerschnitzel autos are what I'm really after as well as the 62.5% pure SAMM auto. Only a couple more generations to go before I get there. I got a little bit of a spider mite issue in my closet, but I'm only growing for seed so I didn't sweat that issue too much. If it gets bad I'll move the plants outdoors and that will take care of the problem.