Anyone grown out any Kalyseeds leaf mutation varieties?

[Ubermensch6]

https://shop.kalyseeds.eu/de/M-B--Strains/

Really curious about these. I know they are low potency (under 15%) and low yielding but could be interesting to use for oil. Esp if you could grow large numbers in the open. They have some varieties with 1:1 THC:CBD and most are high in CBD 5% or more.

What made me skeptical is the claim some of their varieties are cannabis x humolopsis

 

[djonkoman]

you could also go for ducksfoot.

I'm pretty sure kalyseeds is working with the same webbed leaf mutation, and the hops-hybrid story is bullshit. from all the pics I've seen it looks like exactly the kind of leaves you get from the webbed leaf gene from ducksfoot.

 

[The HashMan]

i'm looking for the same beans

 

[Sachiel]

I am sure the story about cannabis x humulus is bullshit, but his strains are solid. Out of 10 seeds you can expect at least two or three to be small runts. The rest will display the advertised leaves and yield potent buds. For me that have more potential in breeding then in their pure form.


The Breeder also has his own YT Channel if anyone is interested


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrLczpd-pPiVUOikIjhvnvQ


In some of his clips you can see how he grows them. Many plants, crowded into a small square spot, looks just like any hedge or shrub...

 

[Red October]

.

 

[clearheaded]

not real. fake pics of just hops smashed up, may have some crappy looking ducksfoot but isnt hops.. save ur money

looked at videos has hard time growing any plants and cannabis he shows is infected with mosaic virus. likely the hops aswell and why some look so deformed and just shows scraggly growth with some leaves that look cannabis like. hops produce "hairs" or pistils like cannais so dont be fooled by the old high times trick

 

[Dr.Drexler]

I am sure the story about cannabis x humulus is bullshit, but his strains are solid. Out of 10 seeds you can expect at least two or three to be small runts. The rest will display the advertised leaves and yield potent buds. For me that have more potential in breeding then in their pure form.


The Breeder also has his own YT Channel if anyone is interested


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrLczpd-pPiVUOikIjhvnvQ


In some of his clips you can see how he grows them. Many plants, crowded into a small square spot, looks just like any hedge or shrub...

I am sure the story about cannabis x humulus is bullshit

really? what is this then.
https://kalyseeds.eu/?cat=c3_Humulus-Kaly-humulus-kaly.html

its not bullshit. It is a proven fact that genetic transfer of genes happens when grafting.

 

[Dr.Drexler]

Our data demonstrate that plant grafting can result in the exchange of genetic information via either large DNA pieces or entire plastid genomes. This observation of novel combinations of genetic material has implications for grafting techniques and also provides a possible path for horizontal gene transfer.

SOURCE: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/194... that plant,path for horizontal gene transfer.

and its not even a new concept. I get you dont WANT to believe. ALSO#

not real. fake pics of just hops smashed up, may have some crappy looking ducksfoot but isnt hops.. save ur money

looked at videos has hard time growing any plants and cannabis he shows is infected with mosaic virus. likely the hops aswell and why some look so deformed and just shows scraggly growth with some leaves that look cannabis like. hops produce "hairs" or pistils like cannais so dont be fooled by the old high times trick

As he states. His humulus kaly doesnt produce hairs anymore.

 

[djonkoman]

SOURCE: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1940...ene transfer.

interesting research, but that some form of horizontal gene transfer is possible in case of grafting is far from proof that it plays any role in these kalyseeds plants.
also, what I've read so far, in that paper they specifically look at cells around the graft, select them for having dna from both sides(antibiotic resistance genes), then put those into tissue culture, generate callus, and regenerate plants from that. so it is not proof that the dna from one side of the graft trave;ls far into the other side, just that a few cells on the boundary might exchange some bits of dna.

so it MIGHT be possible that in some rare cases such a cell might spontaniously become a new shoot that you could then take cuttings from, I'd think it would be a pretty rare ocurrence. and I don't expect the kalyseeds breeder to be doing tissue culture. especially since there is not even a working cannabis tissue culture protocol available in public. maybe some companies have developed their own and keeping it behind closed doors. I have also seen photos of people experimenting with tissue culture, but those where all from nodal stem segments, so basically mini-cuttings, not regenerated plants from callus. what I found in the lierature was that multiple groups tried tissue culture in cannabis, they all failed to regenerate shoots from callus(generating the callus itself did work, regenerating roots also worked, just the shoot-part not).

and add to that the other evidence that the duckfoot leaf trait is a well-known trait in cannabis, and inherits in a very simple way, I think it's way, way more likely that the kalyseeds breeder is simply collecting rare recessive mutations with an effect on appearance and telling some bullshit about hops hybrids to more easily sell the seeds(like occam's razor, maybe the hops story has a very small theoretical chance of being true, but the non-hops option is way more likely to be true). and the most hop-looking plants kalyseeds sells are just what they look like I think: actual hops.

mutations happen all the time normally, you probably also have plenty of new mutations in your dna compared to your parents. it's just a matter of time and plant numbers before you run into some weird variants, where some gene mutated that is important/has a visible effect. those plants don't necesarily have more mutations then their sisters/brothers, they just got their mutation in a more important place. another factor to see such mutations is if you use selfing or not, inbreeding can bring out recessive traits, mutations are usually recessive, and selfing is the most extreme form of inbreeding, most likely to bring recessive traits to the foreground. cannabis is a naturally outcrossing speces, so every plant will likely have a load of hidden recessives, hiding in the background, only becoming visible after inbreeding.

for example I've had a few plants from a particular line that displayed a weird trait that I called self-topping, it was kind of similar to the difference in structure between pole and bush beans: this cannabis plant would on each branch first produce one normal node, then the next node it would just end in a leafstem+leaf, without meristem. this would have the same effect as manual topping does, causing the node below it to grow out, those branches would again stop after the first node, and so on, resulting in a very branched, sphere shaped bush.
most people probably cull such plants as being 'runts' or 'mutants', I kept this one for a while since it was an interesting thing, but eventually, I think somewhere around the beginning of flower, I decided it was not worth my time to keep it just because it was interesting. I saw the same trait in another related plant(which I did cull early, just kept this one to observe how it would develop), so that's why I think it was actually a heritable mutation.

I'm now also seeing a weird trait in one of the lines I'm currently focussed on where one of the leaves on the 3rd node will have 1 white streak, and the leaf curls a bit to the side of that streak. if I saw that just once I would not think it was anything heritable, but I've now seen the same thing in multiple(but still a small minority) plants from that same line. it also does it only on that one leaf, then the rest is just normal completely green without curling.

edit: finished reading, I think this quote from the paper itself pretty much sums it up:

Finally, although our data demonstrate the exchange of genetic material between grafted plants, they do not lend support to the tenet of Lysenkoism that “graft hybridization” would be analogous to sexual hybridization. Instead, our finding that gene transfer is restricted to the contact zone between scion and stock indicates that the changes can become heritable only via lateral shoot formation from the graft site. However, there is some reported evidence for heritable alterations induced by grafting (7) and, in light of our findings, these cases certainly warrant detailed molecular investigation.

 

[The HashMan]

interesting research, but that some form of horizontal gene transfer is possible in case of grafting is far from proof that it plays any role in these kalyseeds plants.
also, what I've read so far, in that paper they specifically look at cells around the graft, select them for having dna from both sides(antibiotic resistance genes), then put those into tissue culture, generate callus, and regenerate plants from that. so it is not proof that the dna from one side of the graft trave;ls far into the other side, just that a few cells on the boundary might exchange some bits of dna.

so it MIGHT be possible that in some rare cases such a cell might spontaniously become a new shoot that you could then take cuttings from, I'd think it would be a pretty rare ocurrence. and I don't expect the kalyseeds breeder to be doing tissue culture. especially since there is not even a working cannabis tissue culture protocol available in public. maybe some companies have developed their own and keeping it behind closed doors. I have also seen photos of people experimenting with tissue culture, but those where all from nodal stem segments, so basically mini-cuttings, not regenerated plants from callus. what I found in the lierature was that multiple groups tried tissue culture in cannabis, they all failed to regenerate shoots from callus(generating the callus itself did work, regenerating roots also worked, just the shoot-part not).

and add to that the other evidence that the duckfoot leaf trait is a well-known trait in cannabis, and inherits in a very simple way, I think it's way, way more likely that the kalyseeds breeder is simply collecting rare recessive mutations with an effect on appearance and telling some bullshit about hops hybrids to more easily sell the seeds(like occam's razor, maybe the hops story has a very small theoretical chance of being true, but the non-hops option is way more likely to be true). and the most hop-looking plants kalyseeds sells are just what they look like I think: actual hops.

mutations happen all the time normally, you probably also have plenty of new mutations in your dna compared to your parents. it's just a matter of time and plant numbers before you run into some weird variants, where some gene mutated that is important/has a visible effect. those plants don't necesarily have more mutations then their sisters/brothers, they just got their mutation in a more important place. another factor to see such mutations is if you use selfing or not, inbreeding can bring out recessive traits, mutations are usually recessive, and selfing is the most extreme form of inbreeding, most likely to bring recessive traits to the foreground. cannabis is a naturally outcrossing speces, so every plant will likely have a load of hidden recessives, hiding in the background, only becoming visible after inbreeding.

for example I've had a few plants from a particular line that displayed a weird trait that I called self-topping, it was kind of similar to the difference in structure between pole and bush beans: this cannabis plant would on each branch first produce one normal node, then the next node it would just end in a leafstem+leaf, without meristem. this would have the same effect as manual topping does, causing the node below it to grow out, those branches would again stop after the first node, and so on, resulting in a very branched, sphere shaped bush.
most people probably cull such plants as being 'runts' or 'mutants', I kept this one for a while since it was an interesting thing, but eventually, I think somewhere around the beginning of flower, I decided it was not worth my time to keep it just because it was interesting. I saw the same trait in another related plant(which I did cull early, just kept this one to observe how it would develop), so that's why I think it was actually a heritable mutation.

I'm now also seeing a weird trait in one of the lines I'm currently focussed on where one of the leaves on the 3rd node will have 1 white streak, and the leaf curls a bit to the side of that streak. if I saw that just once I would not think it was anything heritable, but I've now seen the same thing in multiple(but still a small minority) plants from that same line. it also does it only on that one leaf, then the rest is just normal completely green without curling.

edit: finished reading, I think this quote from the paper itself pretty much sums it up:

I'm cultivating like 20 different types of japanese hops right now. I'm guessing you can gain intergenetic offspring by environmental influence, kaly does live in germany, his youtube channel he even mentions in broken english that the weather has alot to do with. So i'm guess its what you said horizontal gene transfer, I'm testing secondary metabolites to try to get intergenetic reproduction going.

 

[djonkoman]

I'm cultivating like 20 different types of japanese hops right now. I'm guessing you can gain intergenetic offspring by environmental influence, kaly does live in germany, his youtube channel he even mentions in broken english that the weather has alot to do with. So i'm guess its what you said horizontal gene transfer, I'm testing secondary metabolites to try to get intergenetic reproduction going.

and how would the weather/environmental influence exactly do that? I live somewhat near germany(the netherlands), and there's nothing magical or otherwise supernatural about the weather here.

my point was that there MIGHT be a little horizontal gene transfer, but even if that does happen it does not mean much. since it would concern just a few cells around the graft anyway. and then that cell needs to receive just the right genes AND be at exactly the right location for it to divide into more cells so you can clone it and make a whole plant out of it.

meanwhile there is another much simpler explanation: it is just the duckfoot leaf-trait combined with a few other random mutations without any connnection to hops.

following occam's razor, my bet is on the 2nd simpler explanation.

 

[The HashMan]

I have friends in Australia that have both duckfoot and ABC, ABC was found growing in the wild, they're just another link on a evolutionary spectrum. Think of it as cannabis could of evolved from japanese hops, rather than them being two different species, and if thats true duckfoot would be a more uniform phenotype of cannabis x japanese hops. Cannabaceae is a very diverse plant family, it wouldn't be impossible that a inter-genetic offspring would pop up by random chance due to natural environment geno-type interaction. On the other hand, natural genetic engineering like what I'm working on now could cause mutations in the japanese hops that causes it to become more cannabis-like, which would leave a huge gap for evolutionary potential. If you watch kalyseeds youtube channel he goes over all the different phenotypes he has created from a intergenetic hybrid. Some of those phenos are most definitely not grafts but legitimate chimeras

 

[clearheaded]

really? what is this then.
https://kalyseeds.eu/?cat=c3_Humulus-Kaly-humulus-kaly.html

its not bullshit. It is a proven fact that genetic transfer of genes happens when grafting.

that is a hops plant.. many people dont know what hops looks like and of course has similarities in look to cannabis sativa. the seed is a normal hops seed. hops has trichomes yes.. yes hops has pistils like many plants including c sativa. this is not proof they sold fake buds in hightimes for decades that looked like buds often even hops in the mix funny how easily people believe it and dont bother googling what a hops plant looks like other then shape of its finished pods/buds.

 

[The HashMan]

that is a hops plant.. many people dont know what hops looks like and of course has similarities in look to cannabis sativa. the seed is a normal hops seed. hops has trichomes yes.. yes hops has pistils like many plants including c sativa. this is not proof they sold fake buds in hightimes for decades that looked like buds often even hops in the mix funny how easily people believe it and dont bother googling what a hops plant looks like other then shape of its finished pods/buds.

Er where do you get your info bro... not from a plant biology book lol

 

[djonkoman]

I have friends in Australia that have both duckfoot and ABC, ABC was found growing in the wild, they're just another link on a evolutionary spectrum. Think of it as cannabis could of evolved from japanese hops, rather than them being two different species, and if thats true duckfoot would be a more uniform phenotype of cannabis x japanese hops. Cannabaceae is a very diverse plant family, it wouldn't be impossible that a inter-genetic offspring would pop up by random chance due to natural environment geno-type interaction. On the other hand, natural genetic engineering like what I'm working on now could cause mutations in the japanese hops that causes it to become more cannabis-like, which would leave a huge gap for evolutionary potential. If you watch kalyseeds youtube channel he goes over all the different phenotypes he has created from a intergenetic hybrid. Some of those phenos are most definitely not grafts but legitimate chimeras

it's nice to have ideas, but some of this stuff is easy to test yourself, or to google.

-cannabis evolved from japanese hops:
no, they are both currently around. just like humans did not evolve from chimps, but we have a common ancestor.
this is not really something you can just randomly speculate about, it is measurable. you can sequence dna and based on differences you can put species on a family tree, even put aproximate dates on when they split into different species etc. ofcourse it's still sort of a guess, but something does not become true just because it sounds like a nice idea.
see also: https://www.researchgate.net/public...netics_and_character_evolution_of_Cannabaceae

and if thats true duckfoot would be a more uniform phenotype of cannabis x japanese hops.

the duckfoot leaf trait is just 1 gene. you can easily test this yourself: cross a duckleaf plant with a normal leaved plant, make an f2 and count the numbers you get from each phenotype. you'll find the typical 1:3 ratio of a single recessive gene.
no need to make it more complicated. a single recessive gene is usually just a 'broken' gene caused by a random mutation. mutations happen all the time, but most you just don't notice since they don't result in a different phenotype. this one just happens to be a very visible one.

Cannabaceae is a very diverse plant family,

eh, I agree it's somewhat diverse(with also perennial trees being in there, together with annual herb cannabis, and perennial vine hops), but it's also a pretty small family, and other plant families are very diverse too. look at the rosaceae for example, huge diversity in there too. so I would not really say cannabaceae is exceptionally diverse.

it wouldn't be impossible that a inter-genetic offspring would pop up by random chance due to natural environment geno-type interaction.

not completely impossible, but I wouldn't say it's very likely either.
japanese hops has 16 or 17 chromosomes as far as I could find(male-female difference, 14 of those are autosomal, 7 pairs).
cannabis has 20 chromosomes(10 pairs, 9 autosomal pairs and 1 pair sex chromosomes).
so not exactly likely they will give fertile, or even viable, offspring, especially if you just depend on nature and random chance to make the hybrid.

Some of those phenos are most definitely not grafts but legitimate chimeras

I think a grafted plant would technically be a chimera?
anyway, if they're chimeras it's not very usefull. since the chimerism won't inherit to the seeds.

 

[The HashMan]

it's nice to have ideas, but some of this stuff is easy to test yourself, or to google.

-cannabis evolved from japanese hops:
no, they are both currently around. just like humans did not evolve from chimps, but we have a common ancestor.
this is not really something you can just randomly speculate about, it is measurable. you can sequence dna and based on differences you can put species on a family tree, even put aproximate dates on when they split into different species etc. ofcourse it's still sort of a guess, but something does not become true just because it sounds like a nice idea.
see also: https://www.researchgate.net/public...netics_and_character_evolution_of_Cannabaceae


the duckfoot leaf trait is just 1 gene. you can easily test this yourself: cross a duckleaf plant with a normal leaved plant, make an f2 and count the numbers you get from each phenotype. you'll find the typical 1:3 ratio of a single recessive gene.
no need to make it more complicated. a single recessive gene is usually just a 'broken' gene caused by a random mutation. mutations happen all the time, but most you just don't notice since they don't result in a different phenotype. this one just happens to be a very visible one.


eh, I agree it's somewhat diverse(with also perennial trees being in there, together with annual herb cannabis, and perennial vine hops), but it's also a pretty small family, and other plant families are very diverse too. look at the rosaceae for example, huge diversity in there too. so I would not really say cannabaceae is exceptionally diverse.


not completely impossible, but I wouldn't say it's very likely either.
japanese hops has 16 or 17 chromosomes as far as I could find(male-female difference, 14 of those are autosomal, 7 pairs).
cannabis has 20 chromosomes(10 pairs, 9 autosomal pairs and 1 pair sex chromosomes).
so not exactly likely they will give fertile, or even viable, offspring, especially if you just depend on nature and random chance to make the hybrid.


I think a grafted plant would technically be a chimera?
anyway, if they're chimeras it's not very usefull. since the chimerism won't inherit to the seeds.

What would you define freakshow as than? they're saying its a new species of cannabis

 

[clearheaded]

obv we shouldnt feed the troll.. not from a biology text book? i assure u i have plenty.. point out what u feel is incorrect hops and trichomes? roses have trichomes MANY plants do.

 

[rolandomota]

A bit off topic but Human's and chimps evolved from bonobos the rest about weed and hops is malarkey

 

[rolandomota]

A bit off topic but Human's evolved from a common ancestor alike chimps and bonobos
I have a theory about neanderthals and other close human relatives and it's that humans killed them all but also captured some to breed with and eventually they died out no males were kept for breeding those were killed human history is a trip then we start fighting each other and taking over certain areas more fighting more taking over more murder and breeding and here we are today crazy as hell
The hops and weed thing is malarkey

 

[The HashMan]

I'm pretty sure Terence Mckenna's stoned ape theory is spot on