Any carnivores here?

[Grat3fulh3ad]

hello pops, good seeing you

about the 3million yrs old thing, i already corrected myself a few posts back.

you don't need to show me credentials either, i can go flashing mine as well, but i rather not, and imo is a security risk on a forum like this if you are a grower. not that i am a grower nor that i have any credentials either

if we are amongst the understood, as everyone, including myself, claim to be, then what is the problem in examining the theory of knowledge/scientific methods used in order to build many of our theories which we call scientific?

why can't i challenge the idea that preaches meat intake alone directly lead to a quantum leap in the evolution of the hominids and its brain?

was it because of meat, that out of nowhere, sometime in history, homo sapiens became what they became? darn! that sounds utterly simplistic, even for a cartessian minded scientist such a thing must sound as wild as saying that one day a fish became a dolphin because he ate shrimp sometime in their evolutonary history, if there is such a thing.

take good care mr. pops, much peace and light.

You are the one being utterly simplistic. No-one Ever said meat and meat alone lead directly to a quantum leap in the evolution of the hominid's brain. You take a perfectly sound Idea to such an absurd extreme, merely as an attempt to make the sound idea seem absurd. In doing so you only make yourself sound absurd.
Your very concept of how evolution works is flawed. You confuse it with 'magic' sometimes it seems. Statements like 'one day a fish became a dolphin' make your position laughable.

Adding meat to the diet was a major contributor to human evolution.
Without animal source proteins in our ancestor's diet, our species would not be what is it today.

 

[PazVerdeRadical]

hola pops, several factors indeed went into the evolution of man's brain, not only meat, thankfully. although i think it would be proper to call it adaptation rathar than evolution, you know, some may get the idea that man today has became ideally better, but that is a different tea party, where not only women would have a say in things, we would be able to complain if we wanted too... az

 

[naga_sadu]

You wanna eat meat.....raise it yerself, get to know it, feed it, take care of it.
Then kill it and eat it.

I agree to the core w/ Genkisan here, tho raising livestock will kind of be hard if you work in a place such as downtown LA But...we've always raised our own meat for as long as I can recall (though I'll admit, I'll need the help of a butcher to cut a fully grown bull or buffalo). But we do it more out of tradition and mainly, for good quality meat, which corpo kappis never provide.

And also, the quality of mass produced meat is CRAP. In many large scaler broilers for instance, the chickens are fed left over crome shavings from leather factorys. Also, many more "sophisticated" broilers feed their chickens genetically modified crap to make them gain more weight.

Not only the meat industry, but the large scale corpo kappis arent exactly known for delivering quality...take the beverage industry for instance. The amount of pesticides detected in a 200ml Pepsi was 24 times the maximum permissable average in SOUTH ASIA, which isin't exactly known for high sanitary standards. But areated horse piss (pepsi) sure has the most expensive ads...

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

nice one genkisan... I was never naive enough to think there were no scientists with a different viewpoint...
Check this site out...
http://www.beyondveg.com/cat/frank-talk/index.shtml

 

[Pops]

One of the things that I learned in college 35 years ago was that if you put 10 anthropologists in a room, you would have 8 theories and two people changing their minds constantly. Maybe that supports Paz's belief in philosophical anthropology.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

The only thing for sure, is than humanity has a long history of animal eating, and I'm not gonna be the one to stop doing it.

 

[naga_sadu]

Yup...

You can't expect people living in Central Rajestan to farm I believe we are given grinding as well as shredding teeth in order to help us accustom ourselfs to diverse environments, many which may not be so suitable for farming agro produce.

 

[PazVerdeRadical]

You are the one being utterly simplistic. No-one Ever said meat and meat alone lead directly to a quantum leap in the evolution of the hominid's brain. You take a perfectly sound Idea to such an absurd extreme, merely as an attempt to make the sound idea seem absurd. In doing so you only make yourself sound absurd.
Your very concept of how evolution works is flawed. You confuse it with 'magic' sometimes it seems. Statements like 'one day a fish became a dolphin' make your position laughable.

Adding meat to the diet was a major contributor to human evolution.
Without animal source proteins in our ancestor's diet, our species would not be what is it today.

grat3, you have called me a lot of adjectives throughout the thread, what is the matter? all good? i call the theories simplistic, i don't call you simplistic, learn to differentiate the argument from the one making the argument.

i was not one of the posters on the thread hailing meat eating as the coolest thing to do; not that i care, but it was taken to the extreme that people said that without meat, humans wouldn't have evolved into the 'great' beings we are today, that was enough for me to call bullshit on it. meat eating may have helped humans adapt better biologically speaking, but nothing else, everything else is a mere romantization of the act of meat eating.

what is missed and misunderstood here is that scientifically speaking, there is no such thing as evolution in the sense of going into a better state of being, in science, it means adaptation, for the better of the living organism. because in science, the functions of the brain are considered to be the creators of mind.
so the best for the body, the best for the mind.

perhaps science is still not in the know about other factors that chime in into the wellness and development of human beings, like its psychological, mental, emotional and spiritual aspects, not just its biological/physical ones.
personally, i don't think it is science, i think it is people who misunderstand it.

now, i am just talking generally about the ambient of the thread and how all this got started.

peace.

 

[Pops]

In taking into account the amount of meat comsumed, you really have to look at the species and their environment. Paranthropus Boisei lived 2.3 million years ago and had a very heavy jaw that was designed to chew through very fibrous stalks of vegetation. He was not a meat eater, except for the occasional dead body with scraps on it. When the climate changed and the heavy fibrous plants died out, so did paranthropus boisei. He was too specialized.

The classical European neanderthal lived during an ice age where a lot of vegetation did not grow in the short growing season. He couldn't smoke pot, because it wouldn't mature in time(just thought I would throw that in there as this is a pot forum).Obviously, with the archaeological finds, we find some seeds and pollen, but primarily we find animal bones. they had a very high meat diet. in fact, there were some of us who felt that the boney structure of the Neanderthal face could have been partially caused by too much vitamen a, which causes thicker bones and bone abnormalities.

I'm not sure that we will ever know the truth of the matter. It is really not important enough to me to argue the point. Science changes rapidly and so do the viewpoints as various scientist try to make a name for themselves with strange new theories. It's basically a scientific pissing match to see who can get the most grants.

 

[PazVerdeRadical]

I'm not sure that we will ever know the truth of the matter. It is really not important enough to me to argue the point. Science changes rapidly and so do the viewpoints as various scientist try to make a name for themselves with strange new theories. It's basically a scientific pissing match to see who can get the most grants.

sir pops, i agree with that

although i would also add that some also get grants to defend strange old theories.

much peace!

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

grat3, you have called me a lot of adjectives throughout the thread, what is the matter? all good? i call the theories simplistic, i don't call you simplistic, learn to differentiate the argument from the one making the argument.

i was not one of the posters on the thread hailing meat eating as the coolest thing to do; not that i care, but it was taken to the extreme that people said that without meat, humans wouldn't have evolved into the 'great' beings we are today, that was enough for me to call bullshit on it. meat eating may have helped humans adapt better biologically speaking, but nothing else, everything else is a mere romantization of the act of meat eating.

what is missed and misunderstood here is that scientifically speaking, there is no such thing as evolution in the sense of going into a better state of being, in science, it means adaptation, for the better of the living organism. because in science, the functions of the brain are considered to be the creators of mind.
so the best for the body, the best for the mind.

perhaps science is still not in the know about other factors that chime in into the wellness and development of human beings, like its psychological, mental, emotional and spiritual aspects, not just its biological/physical ones.
personally, i don't think it is science, i think it is people who misunderstand it.

now, i am just talking generally about the ambient of the thread and how all this got started.

peace.

I did not call you simplistic, I said you are being simplistic, Big difference.

I call bullshit on your entire second paragraph.
Without animal protein in our ancestor's diet, we would not be the same.

You do not know what evolution means, and have continued to make statements that indicate such. What is missed and Misunderstood is the concept of evolution.
It doen not mean adaptation for the better of the species.
Evolution is the process in which some of a population's inherited traits become more common, at the expense of others, from generation to generation. For any meaningful change to take place takes a very very long time, and alot of successive generations. Even if a new trait is highly benificial, It would take many many generations for it to become part of the gene pool. Differentiation of one species from another takes even longer.

How this got started, Is that I stated a truth, and was called bullshit on.
I'll quote my original contribution to the thread...

I believe that the introduction of meat protein into our ancestor's diets is what allowed our species to evolve our large brain structure and cognitive ability, according to evolutionary biologists and anthropologists...

At which point I was ridiculed. It was even suggested that no Biologist or Anthropologist ever suggested such an Idea, and I was full of shit.

which evolutionary biologists and anthropologists are saying these wild things anyways?

heck, if that were true, animals who eat meat daily and can metabolize it a lot better than humans do should be the ones who evolved into the intelligent dominant species that our human brain is supposed to make us into.

but i am 100% no serious academia is proposing the more meat equals more brain theory, thank goodness.

peace

Since that time it has not been my purpose to bash vegans or do any other thing, than point out that I do not talk bullshit.
You can bank that I will be able to back up every statement I make with factual data and expert opinion. Call bullshit on me, and I'll start proving my point. Especially if your bullshit calling is filled with inaccuracys and misunderstandings.

You're right, it's not a problem with the science, and is a problem with understanding. Unless you understand the science you're arguing, your arguments will be ineffective, you have made alot of statements that make me doubt your understanding of some of the underlying concepts here.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

I'm not upset...
I love all the Vegans, Vegitarians, Omnivores, and Carnivores of ICmag...
I'm not even very passionate about the meat issue...
but It was implied that I was either liar or ignorant, and I defended myself...
Paz... I hope I haven't upset you too much here...
Pop's is right that the issue is not worth arguing over...

 

[I Used To Grow]

wow man..this thread is spot on..can u guys read my mind or summin? LMAO

you guys rock man..

we need to start living off the grid fo real

 

[PazVerdeRadical]

I believe that the introduction of meat protein into our ancestor's diets is what allowed our species to evolve our large brain structure and cognitive ability, according to evolutionary biologists and anthropologists...

so meat in diet resulted in larger brain and better cognitive abilities. you say thanks to meat, not only did humans adapt better biologically, but they also gained higher cognitive abilities which arise merely out of the brain.
this is what is termed as a materialist mechanic stance.

don't say later that it is i who makes the theories sound absurd.

peace out.

 

[NiteTiger]

Hate to go way back in the discussion, but I'd like to clear something up Paz-

When I mentioned people eating meat and feeding my family for a month, it had nothing to do with the brain discussion or evolution.

I was actually thinking of North American nomads, which should make my statement make more sense :smile:

Genkisan, first off, I'd like to make clear that I have nothing but respect for you.

However, you did make some statements in contrast that don't sit well with me. So, if I can't afford to buy organically farmed meat, I shouldn't eat meat. However, you can't afford a hybrid, so it's okay for you to drive a gas car?

I do agree with you about the industrial farming, but bringing personal finance into the discussion is not helpful.

Don't worry bro, soon as I can swing the cash, I'll have my little plot staked out right next to yours, and we'll use a bio-diesel whenever we need a vehicle or power

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

so meat in diet resulted in larger brain and better cognitive abilities. you say thanks to meat, not only did humans adapt better biologically, but they also gained higher cognitive abilities which arise merely out of the brain.
this is what is termed as a materialist mechanic stance.

don't say later that it is i who makes the theories sound absurd.

peace out.

I said that I believed that anthropologist and evolutionary biologist have put forth the statement that Meat protein in our ancestors diets lead to our brain development.

The statement I made is totally true. Scientist Do say that!

The brain and cogntive abilities are due to the physical biological structure of the brain. It is absurd to try to seperate biological and cognitive abilities.
Quit trying to make me look wrong by misinterpreting my statements.

Are you trying to insert some 'mystic' cognitive 'force' into the equation as well?

Really grasping at straws now, eh?

Any ability your brain has is a function of it's biology.

I am not arguing if the experts are right are wrong. I'm just presenting that view. I don't have to prove anything other that that the shcool of thought I referred to exist. You said it didn't. You were wrong, I was right. Get over it.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

"which arise merely out of the brain"

What do you actually mean by that?

 

[genkisan]

Genkisan, first off, I'd like to make clear that I have nothing but respect for you.

However, you did make some statements in contrast that don't sit well with me. So, if I can't afford to buy organically farmed meat, I shouldn't eat meat. However, you can't afford a hybrid, so it's okay for you to drive a gas car?

I do agree with you about the industrial farming, but bringing personal finance into the discussion is not helpful.

Don't worry bro, soon as I can swing the cash, I'll have my little plot staked out right next to yours, and we'll use a bio-diesel whenever we need a vehicle or power

There is quite a difference between affording a $35K+ car and reducing the amount/frequency of meat you eat in order to be able to afford healthier, better quality non-factory produced meat.

But by all means, set up next door.....but bugger bio-diesel. Using thermal masses and potential energy systems based on weight and gravity are the way to go.

Lift a big heavy weight with wind or water power.....when you want energy, drop it slowly and run a transmission....run whatever you want off the trasmission. Not goos for vehicles, but great as a permanent installation.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Using thermal masses and potential energy systems based on weight and gravity are the way to go.

Lift a big heavy weight with wind or water power.....when you want energy, drop it slowly and run a transmission....run whatever you want off the trasmission. Not goos for vehicles, but great as a permanent installation.

I quite like that!

 

[PazVerdeRadical]

I said that I believed that anthropologist and evolutionary biologist have put forth the statement that Meat protein in our ancestors diets lead to our brain development.

The statement I made is totally true. Scientist Do say that!

The brain and cogntive abilities are due to the physical biological structure of the brain. It is absurd to try to seperate biological and cognitive abilities.
Quit trying to make me look wrong by misinterpreting my statements.

Are you trying to insert some 'mystic' cognitive 'force' into the equation as well?

Really grasping at straws now, eh?

Any ability your brain has is a function of it's biology.

I am not arguing if the experts are right are wrong. I'm just presenting that view. I don't have to prove anything other that that the shcool of thought I referred to exist. You said it didn't. You were wrong, I was right. Get over it.

the evil paz is making up stuff to make you look bad man, sorry for that, yes, you win, i loose, i don't know what i am talking about.

stay well.

peace