undercalisun
Member
i just got a refractometer, to understand the brix levels in my plants, i did know know where to post this thread, im trying to learn more on how to increase my brix level. it reads about 9. thank you
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any BRIX fans?
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undercalisun
Member
30 dollar meter tells you what is in the "juice" that you squeeze out of a leaf that is under direct light, one drop on the meter/ refractometer/prism, tells you a number between 0 & 32, im at 9 and i want to go higher, the higher your number, the higher your bud will get yo
Not exactly true. It has nothing to do with producing a better high...
It does however, have to do with producing a better plant - a healthier plant - that is naturally more resistant to disease.
Brix is only a measurement of the sugar content in the plant...and from that measurement people draw many conclusions based on observational (anecdotal) data.
Now the INDIRECT effect of having healthier plants, is often more resin production and thus more cannabinoids and terpenes.
While they may be directly proportional relationships, you can not make such a finite statement, as there is likely a point at which the benefits of higher brix levels stop being of any benefit, but it also will not hold true across all genetics. Some genetics are simply stronger than others and no matter how high your brix content you are not going to increase the potency of a plant any further than it's genetic limitations.
Just to clarify.
You should read this tread to find some like minded individuals:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=278317
dank.Frank
It does however, have to do with producing a better plant - a healthier plant - that is naturally more resistant to disease.
Brix is only a measurement of the sugar content in the plant...and from that measurement people draw many conclusions based on observational (anecdotal) data.
Now the INDIRECT effect of having healthier plants, is often more resin production and thus more cannabinoids and terpenes.
While they may be directly proportional relationships, you can not make such a finite statement, as there is likely a point at which the benefits of higher brix levels stop being of any benefit, but it also will not hold true across all genetics. Some genetics are simply stronger than others and no matter how high your brix content you are not going to increase the potency of a plant any further than it's genetic limitations.
Just to clarify.
You should read this tread to find some like minded individuals:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=278317
dank.Frank
Ca++
Well-known member
The linked thread looks mostly redacted now. The only value given, is an 11, which had some bugs munch and die. Healthy plants can fight things off better. However, general gardening and cannabis retail guys follow the story of 12-18 being right.
I picked up a snippet about checking leaf tissue without the main veins. Then some vein and twig. If the leaf was higher, then the history lesson is things are getting worse. If the twig is higher, the leaf will follow.
I also read low P will raise brix, because the sugar is accumulating, not being used. This can lead to autumn colours.
These things are down to about $15 now. Or you could pay $80 elsewhere. However, it looks like just one factory makes them. In China. So only branding separates them.
The electronic ones are where the market exists now.
I just started to play with them, so can't offer much. However we can forget it's measuring just sugars. It's everything in the sap, that can cause defraction. So the twig reading changed soon after changing the EC. The leaf saps increase lagged.
Today I got no data, because trying to extract a couple of drips from a leaf, isn't as easy as it at first sounds. Labs freeze and defrost with liquid nitrogen, to break the cells. Having first put the leaves in syringes, which are then good enough to do the crushing. Me, I'm stacking cm squares on metal plates, to crush with G-clamps. All I got was a sore hand today. I need to do better. Enough leaves and a garlic press might work, but I can spare just one a day, and never had a decent bench vice
I picked up a snippet about checking leaf tissue without the main veins. Then some vein and twig. If the leaf was higher, then the history lesson is things are getting worse. If the twig is higher, the leaf will follow.
I also read low P will raise brix, because the sugar is accumulating, not being used. This can lead to autumn colours.
These things are down to about $15 now. Or you could pay $80 elsewhere. However, it looks like just one factory makes them. In China. So only branding separates them.
The electronic ones are where the market exists now.
I just started to play with them, so can't offer much. However we can forget it's measuring just sugars. It's everything in the sap, that can cause defraction. So the twig reading changed soon after changing the EC. The leaf saps increase lagged.
Today I got no data, because trying to extract a couple of drips from a leaf, isn't as easy as it at first sounds. Labs freeze and defrost with liquid nitrogen, to break the cells. Having first put the leaves in syringes, which are then good enough to do the crushing. Me, I'm stacking cm squares on metal plates, to crush with G-clamps. All I got was a sore hand today. I need to do better. Enough leaves and a garlic press might work, but I can spare just one a day, and never had a decent bench vice
I used to use a pair of Vise Grips and 2 metal pates. Worked great for the couple drops that were needed.
Ca++
Well-known member
Oh, you have had a pop at this. What range of numbers were you seeing? It's so rarely spoke about, that I don't really have an affirmed target
Sorry I am so late in replying. 
It was a zillion years ago when I did this and I can't remember the numbers so I pulled out the ol' refractometer and I wanted to squeeze a few samples so I could reply.
I can't find the plates I used before so I have to rig up something else. As soon as I get a result, I'll post back.
It was a zillion years ago when I did this and I can't remember the numbers so I pulled out the ol' refractometer and I wanted to squeeze a few samples so I could reply. I can't find the plates I used before so I have to rig up something else. As soon as I get a result, I'll post back.
Ca++
Well-known member
Contrary to the 12-18 I read for a range of plants, I found this
This looks much more detailed than the 12-18 advice parroted everywhere. I know the person who posted a lot about it here, had 11 at one point. I have swung from 6 to 9 in a few days. Though I'm low in P, and will correct that, reducing the sugar part of the refraction reading
Any advice will be golden to me right now
This looks much more detailed than the 12-18 advice parroted everywhere. I know the person who posted a lot about it here, had 11 at one point. I have swung from 6 to 9 in a few days. Though I'm low in P, and will correct that, reducing the sugar part of the refraction reading
Any advice will be golden to me right now
Ca++
Well-known member
It's amazing all brix meters look like this, for the last 30 years at least
I think everyone that invests in this idea, must give up on it. These meters have not even advanced to the point, where they stop rolling around your desk. To say the design is unstable, isn't strong enough. I guess you can squash a strawberry one handed, to keep this in the other. For me though, I have just enough leaf to get a drop, and extracting is a two hands job.
Decades of availability, and still so little talk about them. Perhaps the sugar content of a sugar plant is more important, than that of ours.
I found one statement (20 is good)
I think everyone that invests in this idea, must give up on it. These meters have not even advanced to the point, where they stop rolling around your desk. To say the design is unstable, isn't strong enough. I guess you can squash a strawberry one handed, to keep this in the other. For me though, I have just enough leaf to get a drop, and extracting is a two hands job.
Decades of availability, and still so little talk about them. Perhaps the sugar content of a sugar plant is more important, than that of ours.
I found one statement (20 is good)
I may drag out my DabPress rosin press. You could squeeze drops real real easy with that. Leave the heat off and simply press it cold.
Damn, I hate when I get curious. I just got the garage clean. Now, I need to do this. LOL
Damn, I hate when I get curious. I just got the garage clean. Now, I need to do this. LOL
Ca++
Well-known member
Freezer=the stiffest leaf I have ever seen. I expect it was very fragile, but defrosted in 30 seconds. Leaving a limp leaf that was much easier to milk. No repeated efforts. I got twice the sap out, in just one squeeze.
12% today. I had raised the EC from ~1.5 to 2.0 a few hours previous. It had been 9%. There is a suggestion here (for the second time) that my reading is very much sap EC related.
I won't get good numbers. These plants are old and difficult. Just there to learn from.
12% today. I had raised the EC from ~1.5 to 2.0 a few hours previous. It had been 9%. There is a suggestion here (for the second time) that my reading is very much sap EC related.
I won't get good numbers. These plants are old and difficult. Just there to learn from.
Ca++
Well-known member
13.5% (can't forget the 0.5)
Froze twice. Made more difference than I expected. More extract than I needed, but the higher reading comes with more colour in the sap anyway. For the first time, I see staining fluid on the plates to wipe off. The extra solids don't need a device to see they exist. This is causing errors that I can accommodate for my own use, but brix figures are dependent on extraction technique. Making them less exacting, if we were to share them. And I can see people literally climbing over each other to get to the front of the queue on this one
Froze twice. Made more difference than I expected. More extract than I needed, but the higher reading comes with more colour in the sap anyway. For the first time, I see staining fluid on the plates to wipe off. The extra solids don't need a device to see they exist. This is causing errors that I can accommodate for my own use, but brix figures are dependent on extraction technique. Making them less exacting, if we were to share them. And I can see people literally climbing over each other to get to the front of the queue on this one
Ca++
Well-known member
The extraction process just gave me a huge chunk of info. I have been testing a plant with years of degeneration caused by some unknown parasitic load. I instead tried a good plant. As you might imagine, this sap pressing involves some alignment of plates and sample, then the press. While nipping up the plates, before the big squeeze, I got wet. More milky fluid than I thought possible. Instead of a huge effort to get a drip, I had a flow before I even got started. In fairness this leaf exhibited the excess water wrinkles of high no3, but it's high level proof of ideas I had about the old plants. Just from the ease of extraction.
A few may wish to read on, but it's off topic.
My old plants need high feed, they can't get by with normal EC. They need RH to be good, like 60% or more. They don't make huge turgid leaves without these in place. The general structure is too branched. They lack that apical dominance of a bean stalk, and instead bush easily. Though the branches stay thin. Today I confirmed water use is lower than it should be. Most of us perhaps don't know our real water use figures. These are the plants I converted to LED with. At first, water use increased nearly 50% at peak bloom, but then settled down over a couple of years, to HID levels again. As the plants deteriorated. The chicken or egg question couldn't be answered.
I have seen this branching associated with viroids online. A sign in grow, that needs you to know your plants. I'm more settled with the idea I have an unseen fungus or viroid in the root system. They do tend to live there. If I reuse substrate my problems are amplified, or rather new substrate makes things quite a bit better, but not right. The problem follows the substrate, more than it follows the plants. Though it is in the plants, they control the load, giving a poor yield. If the substrate is also loaded with old root, the yield isn't worth having. The colonisation is too advanced. High feeding can combat a lot of the problems, and people have said the veg pics look great. However 3 weeks into bloom, they stall. Dud you might say. I have been thinking a specific element of the feed isn't getting through, but unable to prove it. The run-off pH is getting uncontrollably high through mid and late bloom. Which leads to me think this is a fungal issue. Though no real signs of one.
The new plant, in with the old, is a very different animal. There are two actually, and both are looking over fed and interested in a strong main stem. The wait for side branching is starting to get old, when compared to the old plants. Who want even more food
It's the second sacrifical plant to go in with them for comparisons. The last one was better for a run, but soon reached the advanced poor health the others took years to reach.
All of these are in coco that's been hit with insecicide and fungicide. Then the plants have been hit with a different insecticide and fungicide. Just to see it I could knock the problem back a bit, and maybe keep a cutting for a few generations. It's old stock I have hung onto years after I should of let go. However, I have to chuck out the lot, as even these unsuitable treatments have not touched the problem.
It's good to see this water transport problem in such a visible way. Where less than perfect conditions, rapidly cause severe problems, that should be barely noticable at a glance. Coupled with the excess of spindly branching, and dislike for used medium, I have a better picture of what's really happening. I just wish I could tissue sample. To see why they are dudding with timing like a Japanese train service. I'm never going to know, and I have really paid to get an answer.
A legal market would of seen me get answers years ago.
With answers, this would be a very good study. Without answers, the pics are near worthless.
Edit: Sorry for the long off topic. I needed to lay it all out, so I could read it myself. I have to settle my mind.
A few may wish to read on, but it's off topic.
My old plants need high feed, they can't get by with normal EC. They need RH to be good, like 60% or more. They don't make huge turgid leaves without these in place. The general structure is too branched. They lack that apical dominance of a bean stalk, and instead bush easily. Though the branches stay thin. Today I confirmed water use is lower than it should be. Most of us perhaps don't know our real water use figures. These are the plants I converted to LED with. At first, water use increased nearly 50% at peak bloom, but then settled down over a couple of years, to HID levels again. As the plants deteriorated. The chicken or egg question couldn't be answered.
I have seen this branching associated with viroids online. A sign in grow, that needs you to know your plants. I'm more settled with the idea I have an unseen fungus or viroid in the root system. They do tend to live there. If I reuse substrate my problems are amplified, or rather new substrate makes things quite a bit better, but not right. The problem follows the substrate, more than it follows the plants. Though it is in the plants, they control the load, giving a poor yield. If the substrate is also loaded with old root, the yield isn't worth having. The colonisation is too advanced. High feeding can combat a lot of the problems, and people have said the veg pics look great. However 3 weeks into bloom, they stall. Dud you might say. I have been thinking a specific element of the feed isn't getting through, but unable to prove it. The run-off pH is getting uncontrollably high through mid and late bloom. Which leads to me think this is a fungal issue. Though no real signs of one.
The new plant, in with the old, is a very different animal. There are two actually, and both are looking over fed and interested in a strong main stem. The wait for side branching is starting to get old, when compared to the old plants. Who want even more food
It's the second sacrifical plant to go in with them for comparisons. The last one was better for a run, but soon reached the advanced poor health the others took years to reach.
All of these are in coco that's been hit with insecicide and fungicide. Then the plants have been hit with a different insecticide and fungicide. Just to see it I could knock the problem back a bit, and maybe keep a cutting for a few generations. It's old stock I have hung onto years after I should of let go. However, I have to chuck out the lot, as even these unsuitable treatments have not touched the problem.
It's good to see this water transport problem in such a visible way. Where less than perfect conditions, rapidly cause severe problems, that should be barely noticable at a glance. Coupled with the excess of spindly branching, and dislike for used medium, I have a better picture of what's really happening. I just wish I could tissue sample. To see why they are dudding with timing like a Japanese train service. I'm never going to know, and I have really paid to get an answer.
A legal market would of seen me get answers years ago.
With answers, this would be a very good study. Without answers, the pics are near worthless.
Edit: Sorry for the long off topic. I needed to lay it all out, so I could read it myself. I have to settle my mind.
Last edited:
Ca++
Well-known member
@Turbo5 Renault or Mazda?
Back to the poor plants. I let them dry back a bit, but they still looked about the norm. I did a double freeze, and timing the second freeze, made me realise how little time it takes. Just time for me to contemplate how I should of asked for her number, and snap out of it.
The squeeze was easy. Lots more extract than no freeze, and I didn't even cut it up, I just folded it. It had a different brown tint to the drops, and though the staining it left was green, it was not as bright like the good plant. I think I'm looking at a bacterial or fungal problem, but the dry-back is because I'm letting them go. I want the coco to be drier and more manageable.
I got a 13% read. A bit more than the 11% last time. Maybe because the EC is higher.
I think if all other variables remain constant, then the Brix tester serves as a plant sap EC guide. The idea it's about sugars should be foremost, but so far, I'm just keeping that in mind. I see changes related to EC
I think this is a rather crude analysis of sap. It's literally about how much the light bends, as it passes though. Like using a spear to fish, the light bends as it moves through the waters surface, so the fish appears to be somewhere else. The higher the dissolved solids, the more the fish is moved from it's place. In this instance, we see sugar as effecting the waters thickness the most, but it's not the only player.
I don't see any lengthy articles on this regarding cannabis. The general chart above, suggests 13s not bad. They are bad though, and the best article I found, suggested plants that did well, all seemed to of had 20% readings. Now that is pretty high, and would make our plant compete only with pineapples. Which is really sticky..
Back to the poor plants. I let them dry back a bit, but they still looked about the norm. I did a double freeze, and timing the second freeze, made me realise how little time it takes. Just time for me to contemplate how I should of asked for her number, and snap out of it.
The squeeze was easy. Lots more extract than no freeze, and I didn't even cut it up, I just folded it. It had a different brown tint to the drops, and though the staining it left was green, it was not as bright like the good plant. I think I'm looking at a bacterial or fungal problem, but the dry-back is because I'm letting them go. I want the coco to be drier and more manageable.
I got a 13% read. A bit more than the 11% last time. Maybe because the EC is higher.
I think if all other variables remain constant, then the Brix tester serves as a plant sap EC guide. The idea it's about sugars should be foremost, but so far, I'm just keeping that in mind. I see changes related to EC
I think this is a rather crude analysis of sap. It's literally about how much the light bends, as it passes though. Like using a spear to fish, the light bends as it moves through the waters surface, so the fish appears to be somewhere else. The higher the dissolved solids, the more the fish is moved from it's place. In this instance, we see sugar as effecting the waters thickness the most, but it's not the only player.
I don't see any lengthy articles on this regarding cannabis. The general chart above, suggests 13s not bad. They are bad though, and the best article I found, suggested plants that did well, all seemed to of had 20% readings. Now that is pretty high, and would make our plant compete only with pineapples. Which is really sticky..
The Mazda is retired a few years now, it was scary fun! Now it’s a BMW 5 series. More fun but waaaay more comfortable@Turbo5 Renault or Mazda?
Back to the poor plants. I let them dry back a bit, but they still looked about the norm. I did a double freeze, and timing the second freeze, made me realise how little time it takes. Just time for me to contemplate how I should of asked for her number, and snap out of it.
The squeeze was easy. Lots more extract than no freeze, and I didn't even cut it up, I just folded it. It had a different brown tint to the drops, and though the staining it left was green, it was not as bright like the good plant. I think I'm looking at a bacterial or fungal problem, but the dry-back is because I'm letting them go. I want the coco to be drier and more manageable.
I got a 13% read. A bit more than the 11% last time. Maybe because the EC is higher.
I think if all other variables remain constant, then the Brix tester serves as a plant sap EC guide. The idea it's about sugars should be foremost, but so far, I'm just keeping that in mind. I see changes related to EC
I think this is a rather crude analysis of sap. It's literally about how much the light bends, as it passes though. Like using a spear to fish, the light bends as it moves through the waters surface, so the fish appears to be somewhere else. The higher the dissolved solids, the more the fish is moved from it's place. In this instance, we see sugar as effecting the waters thickness the most, but it's not the only player.
I don't see any lengthy articles on this regarding cannabis. The general chart above, suggests 13s not bad. They are bad though, and the best article I found, suggested plants that did well, all seemed to of had 20% readings. Now that is pretty high, and would make our plant compete only with pineapples. Which is really sticky..
What made u askI have been reading your post and have gained a lot of insight, especially the last one about older plants and ec and humidity. I feel like that’s exactly what I’m seeing in especially one of my clones I have going right now.@Turbo5 Renault or Mazda?
Back to the poor plants. I let them dry back a bit, but they still looked about the norm. I did a double freeze, and timing the second freeze, made me realise how little time it takes. Just time for me to contemplate how I should of asked for her number, and snap out of it.
The squeeze was easy. Lots more extract than no freeze, and I didn't even cut it up, I just folded it. It had a different brown tint to the drops, and though the staining it left was green, it was not as bright like the good plant. I think I'm looking at a bacterial or fungal problem, but the dry-back is because I'm letting them go. I want the coco to be drier and more manageable.
I got a 13% read. A bit more than the 11% last time. Maybe because the EC is higher.
I think if all other variables remain constant, then the Brix tester serves as a plant sap EC guide. The idea it's about sugars should be foremost, but so far, I'm just keeping that in mind. I see changes related to EC
I think this is a rather crude analysis of sap. It's literally about how much the light bends, as it passes though. Like using a spear to fish, the light bends as it moves through the waters surface, so the fish appears to be somewhere else. The higher the dissolved solids, the more the fish is moved from it's place. In this instance, we see sugar as effecting the waters thickness the most, but it's not the only player.
I don't see any lengthy articles on this regarding cannabis. The general chart above, suggests 13s not bad. They are bad though, and the best article I found, suggested plants that did well, all seemed to of had 20% readings. Now that is pretty high, and would make our plant compete only with pineapples. Which is really sticky..
Ca++
Well-known member
I ran two near identical plants in one tub. As it dried out, one plant had fully wilted leaves, while the other still stood fine. The wilted leaves that recovered, have something like water marks on them. Mostly the leading half of each leaf. I'm quite sure this is a mold, as they are in compost. The good plant just has one twisted blade.
Many molds will stain the trunk in rings, while bacteria may stain the whole thing. There is no hard and fast rule. However, a piece of trunk from a bacteria laden plant, can be put in water. The bacteria can be seen to stream out given an hour or so. Molds hold on it seems, but bacteria remain more waterborne.
A viroid doesn't stain. They interfere with a plants function, by changing the code. Until recently, it was thought viroids are only found in flowering plants. It's still a good enough fact to bank on. This suggests, the viroid is inhabiting flowering parts. Infact, many people note that plants in veg can look fine, then in bloom they crash.
Any of these problems, may show as a plant branching more. The plant may not know why, but it's not making a decent apical bud, that can take control. It keeps trying to grow something decent, some place else. This can look nice and bushy, while our brain tells us the once beanstalk, has had some drift in genetic expression. When the truth is, our plant has to keep trying again, as it's not happy.
For me, my blocked up plants need a higher EC in the water the do get. That water needs to be more available. The RH matters more, as it's key to water movement. No feed fix has shown though, like a need for more K, as we might imagine.
I wish I didn't have to learn all this, but our pot sites seem woefully lacking on these topics of growing importance.
I have a Roadster with a liberal coating of FM bits
Many molds will stain the trunk in rings, while bacteria may stain the whole thing. There is no hard and fast rule. However, a piece of trunk from a bacteria laden plant, can be put in water. The bacteria can be seen to stream out given an hour or so. Molds hold on it seems, but bacteria remain more waterborne.
A viroid doesn't stain. They interfere with a plants function, by changing the code. Until recently, it was thought viroids are only found in flowering plants. It's still a good enough fact to bank on. This suggests, the viroid is inhabiting flowering parts. Infact, many people note that plants in veg can look fine, then in bloom they crash.
Any of these problems, may show as a plant branching more. The plant may not know why, but it's not making a decent apical bud, that can take control. It keeps trying to grow something decent, some place else. This can look nice and bushy, while our brain tells us the once beanstalk, has had some drift in genetic expression. When the truth is, our plant has to keep trying again, as it's not happy.
For me, my blocked up plants need a higher EC in the water the do get. That water needs to be more available. The RH matters more, as it's key to water movement. No feed fix has shown though, like a need for more K, as we might imagine.
I wish I didn't have to learn all this, but our pot sites seem woefully lacking on these topics of growing importance.
I have a Roadster with a liberal coating of FM bits
