AM Fungi and Phosphorus

[ganja din redux]

Bit of help to get ganga's files - if you click on them, it says save or download, click save, then change the name there and then, and where it says file type, change it from txt to all files. Then download and it'll open up easily.

Good to see you ganga, hang in there buddy.

I'm doing great at uni.

I can't wait to see your website - I'll email ya before too long.

Hey, yup I am doing well.

Thanks for the directions assist, I tend to make things more confusing then they need to be. he.

I am glad to hear your studies are going well. I am heading back soon too, moving there to do it in fact, really looking forward to it.

Definitely email me. All the best.

 

[rrog]

I'm very grateful for the civil dialog. Thanks to everyone so far.

There are a few questions that I'm looking for hard data to answer. I will download the files from Mr. Din. Some info I came across this AM:

Regarding the benefit of pumping air into the medium:

http://soils.usda.gov/SQI/concepts/soil_biology/fungi.html

Arbuscular mycorrhizal (AM) fungi are a type of endomycorrhizal fungi. Endomycorrhizae that grow within the root cells and are commonly associated with grasses, row crops, vegetables, and shrubs.

Fungi are aerobic organisms. Soil which becomes anaerobic for significant periods generally loses its fungal component. Anaerobic conditions often occur in waterlogged soil and in compacted soils.

http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/cropsystems/M1272.html

…they extend throughout the soil mobilizing nutrients for the plant (Table 2). In exchange, the fungi receive food from the plant in the form of carbohydrates.

Fungi need oxygen, nutrients, neutral pH, and a host to survive

Frequently saturated soils or black fallow will dramatically decrease the number of AM.

So it would seem that AM Fungi would directly benefit from increased air supply, presuming other factors were present that would allow them to capitalize on this. For example, having high levels of O2 without carbs (hexose) for food gets us nowhere.

 

[rrog]

The role of added P to the system is conflicting. Is it good or bad? The system is complex.

It seems different species of AM Fungi can handle different background levels of P in the system. Some question as to whether the P level itself is a signal for the AM to back off, or if the plant root is coordinating feedback to the AM. Seems that most agree there's potential feedback from the plant (As G. Din mentioned). P starved roots provide feedback and greater AM colonization. Roots with sufficient P may provide less Hexose (AM Fungi food from roots).

Different AM Fungi react differently in varying levels of P. Medium levels of P cause the branches of some Fungal hyphae to shrink, while the overall length of the hyphae is still large (unaffected). Higher levels of P start to shorten the Hyphae.

So this still leaves the question of whether to add P or not during flower.

http://ejobios.com/pdf/EJOB-8-03-2,3,26-33.pdf

My summary: In a controlled setting, plants inoculated with Glomus mosseae (AM fungi) and additional phosphorus provided the greatest resulting biomass. Control plants given no AM Fungi did not produce the same degree of biomass.

This seems in contrast to other studies that determined that higher background P inhibits AMF.

So do we add P or not? Conflicting studies...

 

[quadracer]

Very interesting stuff. Does anyone have a list of common AM species? What species do they use in commercial mixes?

 

[rrog]

Good questions, Quad. I'd be willing to bet that Myco Madness is simply a collection of every cheaply available microbe. We figure that more is better.

I was reading where the introduction of a fungus that is not native to that region will simply not fare as well as one that is native to that area. Same with Lacto Bacillus. You can start a yogurt culture with a scoop of Dannon, but for each subsequent generation of yogurt you make, your culture will reflect the natural background of LactoB you have in your area, not Dannon's area.

Typical of most human efforts, we're thinking that more is better, and I'm concluding (based on very generous contributors like GD and MM) that what occurs in nature is better.

We don't need 20 bacteria and 25 Fungi. We don't necessarily need gigantic quantities of Phosphorus PLUS intense background Microbes. We need balance.

 

[grapeman]

Just to clear up my ignorance, what does the "AM" stand for?

 

[rrog]

arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi

 

[Microbeman]

I was not meaning to get into a lot of posting here. Mr. Din has covered things quite nicely (& responded close to how I would have if I was going to) and I do promise to complete my review of 'interaction of fungal species in soup to nuts bottled commercial mixes' so prevalent these days. I think the "We need balance" statement by rrog is pretty right on.

In these bottled fungal (& bacterial) mixes there is the usual variety of endo & ecto mycorrhizal spores, several species/strains/races of Trichoderma and several lacto bacillus species. Each grower really needs to decide for themselves the value in using these products. If you do a side by side be sure to check the other ingredients like fish hydrolysate, kelp, humic acid, molasses which may be included in the jug and apply these to your comparitive subjects and preferably also include a control group which gets something like organic soil and water.

 

[rrog]

MM thanks for the time. Really

 

[quadracer]

How many AM actually produce a fruitbody? Seem's like some of them should produce a mushroom. I always find Scleroderma popping up around plants, it must form some connection for the plants.

To answer my own question, here are some of the species used by Fungi Perfect (sorry for repeats, I just copied and pasted):

Endomycorrhizal fungi: Glomus mosseae, Glomus intraradices, Glomus clarum, Glomus monosporus, Glomus deserticola, Glomus brasilianum, Gigaspora margarita

Ectomycorrhizal fungi: Pisolithus tinctorus, Rhizopogon villosullus, Rhizopogon luteolus, Rhizopogon amylopogon, Rhizopogon fulvigleba

Endomycorrhizal fungi: Glomus intraradices, Glomus mosseae, Glomus aggregatum, Glomus etunicatum

Ectomycorrhizal fungi: Rhizopogon villosullus, Rhizopogon luteolus, Rhizopogon amylopogon, Rhizopogon fulvigleba, Pisolithus tinctorius, Scleroderma cepa, Scleroderma citrinum(!!!!)

Endomycorrhizal fungi: Glomus intraradices, Glomus mosseae, Glomus aggregatum, Glomus etunicatum

Endomycorrhizal fungi: Glomus intraradices, Glomus mosseae, Glomus aggregatum, Glomus clarum, Glomus deserticola, Glomus etunicatum, Gigaspora margarita, Gigaspora brasilianum, Gigaspora monosporum

Ectomycorrhizal fungi: Rhizopogon villosullus, Rhizopogon luteolus, Rhizopogon amylopogon, Rhizopogon fulvigleba, Pisolithus tinctorius, Laccaria bicolor, Laccaria laccata, Scleroderma cepa, Scleroderma citrinum, Suillus granulatas, Suillus punctatapies

Trichoderma: Trichoderma harzianum, Trichoderma konigii

Beneficial Bacteria: Bacillus subtillus, Bacillus licheniformis, Bacillus azotoformans, Bacillus megaterium, Bacillus coagulans, Bacillus pumlis, Bacillus thuringiensis, Bacillus stearothermiphilis, Paenibacillus polymyxa, Paenibacillus durum, Paenibacillus florescence, Paenibacillus gordonae, Azotobacter polymyxa, Azotobacter chroococcum, Sacchromyces cervisiae, Streptomyces griseues, Streptomyces lydicus, Pseudomonas aureofaceans, Deinococcus erythromyxa

The notable ones are Scleroderma, Suillus, and Laccaria, mainly because they produce larger fruitbodies and are common in the area.

 

[big ballin 88]

The first one that comes to my mind is the Amanita pantherina, i think there are other Amanita's that also possess this property, but i don't want to give away false information. I just thought the amanita Muscaria was also ectomychrozzial.

Note-Sorry its not a type of AM though. Just the first thing that came to mind.

Also some species of Fungi need oxygen(P. Cubensis) to make fruits and respirate, but it may be more for the ones who actually fruit. Some fungi can't take lots of fresh air. Hopefully for once i'll remember something correctly haha..Please correct me if i'm wrong..

 

[rrog]

I'm now of the opinion that having some compost or soil from your yard will probably do as well for us. Local AM Fungus is abundant and dominant.

Seems that if your plants need P, they'll get it come hell or high water. AM survives because of the relationship. They need the plant roots, so they'll establish a colony. If P gets too high, the AM Fungi can back off or even die. Not sure that's a biggie, since if there's high P, the plant is getting it, and I think the plant is telling the AM to back off, "I don't need ya anymore."

My only remaining question is if a plant can actually use more P than the AM Fungus can provide...

 

[big ballin 88]

I'm now of the opinion that having some compost or soil from your yard will probably do as well for us. Local AM Fungus is abundant and dominant.

Seems that if your plants need P, they'll get it come hell or high water. AM survives because of the relationship. They need the plant roots, so they'll establish a colony. If P gets too high, the AM Fungi can back off or even die. Not sure that's a biggie, since if there's high P, the plant is getting it, and I think the plant is telling the AM to back off, "I don't need ya anymore."

My only remaining question is if a plant can actually use more P than the AM Fungus can provide...

The only problem your gonna face by locking out the AM with high P is what if those AM regulate and flow the amount of other nutrients like micro's.
When a plant needs more P from the plant it sends carbon to the AM increase their uptake of P and transfer it from the fungi to the plant. AM also decreases the pH to make the P more soluble.

I think the reason having homemade compost and EWC's is important because you recieve the natural organism from around you and some that you may have imported if they actually survive. In my compost garden there is always some leftover rootballs with soil attached from my garden that should have something to pass on from the land.

I too would like to know the answer to your last question.

 

[rrog]

If the plant can use more P than the AM can provide, then obviously we add P, reduce the influence of the AM and carry on. Light one up.

If, however, the AM can give the plant all the P it needs, then we have no need to go heavy on any P supplementation. I believe there's good reason to think the plant will get all the P it needs. Why? Let's assume the plant WANTS more P. It's flowering and needs more Phosphorus. There are signals that the root send out that it needs P. When these signals are present, more AM Fungus networking occurs. This is documented. When less outside P is needed, less feedback from plant = less Fungal networking.

So IF the plant knows it needs mega-doses of P it will let Fungus know it's open for business.

I'd be surprised if the plant could be force-fed more P than it wants or can use. Therefore I am thinking the plant knows it needs massive P during flower. It send out the signals to the neighboring Fungus that it needs more, and the Fungus responds and it responds fast.

Essentially (as GD pointed out) when the plant is open for business, the Fungus gets more Hexose food from plant roots.

One thing I was struck with is the Fungus' ability to pull required nutrients from far away. To supply a plant with all the P it needs even from low P soil. I'm thinking we may not need a hell of a lot of P sources in the first place

 

[MrFista]

"In soil, the majority of phosphate is bound in water-insoluble minerals,
and the soil water phase contains bioavailable phosphate only at very
low concentrations (,10 mM [15]). Thus, acquisition of phosphate by plant
roots is one of the key problems in plant nutrition. Experiments with various vascular
plants provided evidence of an active transport system in the fine roots
which takes up primary orthophosphate (H2PO42) in a cotransport with protons. Most plants enhance their nutrient uptake capacity (mainly phosphate and
nitrogen compounds) by association with fungi in various forms of Mycorrhiza.
In these symbiotic associations, the fungus extends the surface area of the plant
roots, thus increasing the nutrient transport capacity also for phosphate acquisition
. Alternatively, also bacteria in the rhizosphere can improve the
phosphate supply to plants. Several types of “phosphate solubilizing bacteria”
have been described, such as Pseudomonas cepacia, Serratia marcescens,
Erwinia herbicola, Phizobium spp. and Bacillus spp. [19–22] which are
supposed to increase the phosphorus supply in the rhizosphere. The phosphatemobilizing
effect of these bacteria is mainly due to the release of gluconic acid
which is formed from glucose via specifically induced, pyrroloquinoline
quinone-dependent glucose dehydrogenases; the produced gluconic acid helps
to solubilize mineral phosphates especially in alkaline, carbonate-rich soils.
Other bacteria may contribute to orthophosphate supply by excretion of
extracellular phosphatases to tap the pool of organic phosphates.

 

[jaykush]

If the plant can use more P than the AM can provide, then obviously we add P, reduce the influence of the AM and carry on. Light one up.

If, however, the AM can give the plant all the P it needs, then we have no need to go heavy on any P supplementation. I believe there's good reason to think the plant will get all the P it needs.

there ya go you got it! now its up to each individual to think which route is best for them.

i go the mycorrhizal route because it benefits my soil and growing method.

 

[rrog]

Wow. Phosphorus supplying bacteria. And I see Bacillus listed. Wonder what type. Bacteria excreting acid turds. Nice.

Like Fungus, it seems they operate really well in poor soil.

That's a cool post. MrFista. Thanks for digging that up.

 

[rrog]

there ya go you got it! now its up to each individual to think which route is best for them.

i go the mycorrhizal route because it benefits my soil and growing method.

JK how are you man? Nice to hear from you for sure. I'm far more inclined to go the low P route. Do you happen to supplement much P?

MrFista's point about the fact that most phosphate being locked up as water insoluble minerals makes me wonder what the action is of the Fungus. How does it pull P from mineral when water won't work.

 

[jaykush]

JK how are you man? Nice to hear from you for sure. I'm far more inclined to go the low P route. Do you happen to supplement much P?

MrFista's point about the fact that most phosphate being locked up as water insoluble minerals makes me wonder what the action is of the Fungus. How does it pull P from mineral when water won't work.

i go the low P route, well the mycorrhizal route. which just makes what P there is more efficient.

from what i have read and somewhat observed, the fungi excrete an exudate ( an acid?) that breaks down the minerals, that's why i love them in my highly mineral rich soil, without the biology all those nutrients and minerals would be locked up in some way or another. this is what makes organic soil better over time. long term sources and microbiology to unlock it when needed.

 

[*Journeyman*]

And I see Bacillus listed.

I've been told bacillus love dextrose.