AM Fungi and Phosphorus

[xmobotx]

here's the fungi on the surface of mine
it washes down when i water (as i water thru the medium) and grows back within a day or 2 (w/ the next obbt, I'll be setting a section of pipe to water direct to the res)



I introduced AM however it comes from boxed bat guano (as whitney farms or FF or ?) but I was concerned as I'd had the guano for about 5 yrs. So, I got inventive and got to looking at the roots of the local wild hemp where I found well established fungal population. I cut the roots into chunks and worked those into the surface near the roots of the corns - i suspect that when i cut the corns, I'll leave the system intact to brew for a while and spore up (hopefully?)

 

[rrog]

That's the fungus I was incorrectly assuming was AM, but was actually Trich. Very cool what you have going there xmobotx. That's the corn you mentioned in another thread?

 

[xmobotx]

yeah, i'm an oldskool guy who learned from mj grower's bible (franks/rosenthal) so, based on advice from that book, i use corn to test soil mixes

i'm sold on obbt - but, when i flushed this, the medium got too wet (which is why i want a pipe going str8 2 the res)

i'm thinking of a new regimen using coco/EWC and then teas of bunny poo for veg and bat poo for flower (3 amazing shits) that way, the coco purists are happy, i'm organic, and i can check out a concept i haven't tried yet (win/win/win)

 

[rrog]

keep us posted!

 

[big ballin 88]

yea thats definetly trich its scares me looking at that haha. Its full on and sporing there, the color you actually see is the spore , i'd try not to touch it or inhale it. Trich isn't a bad thing when it comes to growing plants though

 

[rrog]

BB88 is there a risk with that fungus? I'd hate to think these things are great for plants and hazardous to us.

 

[xmobotx]

i wonder if maybe i wouldn't be better served washing it through then? it wouldn't eliminate it but it slows it at the surface

 

[ganja din redux]

Hey all,

I know I haven't posted in a while, and I am not really sure why I am right now, besides that this question of AM fungi *needs* to be vetted once and for all. (please don't assume this means I am returning to this site, I am not, I did however what to assist Tim in his endeavors)

Please see this paper:

"The Soil is Alive!"
Jodi DeJong-Hughes, University of Minnesota Extension; 2009
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/cropsystems/M1272.html


In the following screenshot you will see that plants get a good amount of P from other soil foodweb organisms and the nutrient cycle. Even tho P from AM fungi infected plants is about twice that from non-infected plants...however, note that *no* extra P (Ie. guanos, etc) were added to the soil for the following data:

 

[ganja din redux]

Your quote was from that ill-fated thread. So you were referring to an informal side by side observation of chem fertilized plant vs. an organic micro-herd grow. Assuming your group would have increased the P to max levels in the chem fert "trial" , this bodes well for my speculation that we just don't need to add much inorganic sources of P during a (organic grown)flower period. That's my main query.

Thank you for your insights MM. I know you're very busy.

Hey rrog,

how ya been?


AFAIK, there is nothing 'informal' about the ppm levels I cited, and there was no side by side for chem feed vs. bio-chem feed. The 'chems', ie, ions are the same in both situations. What do you consider "inorganic"? Why would anyone add chems to organic grow? I wouldn't use AM fungi and apply P amendments like a lot of colloidal phosphate, or light amounts of guanos, etc.

HTH

 

[ganja din redux]

Hello,

Hey MM,

I know what you mean about the seeing trich in the soil vs. AM. One way you can tell if its trich is to rub it with some H202 and see if its bubbles away and change color.

Trich is green without any H202, it is only white when it's young. And I think your referring to "cobweb" mold as to "bubbling", that is why H202 is used in mycology for cobweb.

I THINK, one way you can tell if your colonized with AM is the way the soil holds together. I've had plants that weren't even close to rootbound, that was able to hold the soil so tightly together it pulled away from the edges, much like my mushrooms cakes would do. I haven't seen or heard trich holding the soil like that, but have heard that AM will link hyphae to increase surface area and in turn can do this and see the some of the hyphae on top of the soil.

Many things will "glue" media particles together, mycosphers from non-AM fungi, bacterial bio-film and even plant exudates.

Also trich is very good at taking over other fungi's food sources, so it would make sense that if it has a foothold is goona hold it over AM. This is typical for fungi, if one has the foothold first than its gonna stand a greater chance. What if i pasteurized the soil and than added AM after?

Trich *eats* AM fungi, not the AM fungi's foodsource. But as MM said, in research I have read if the AM fungi is already strong and large then adding trich spores won't stop AM fungi, tho it could still "parasite" the AM fungi. It's more of a battle AFAIK.

@ MM, I am very interested to read your final thoughts on this matter.

 

[ganja din redux]

man that's interesting BB88. Thanks a lot for adding this to the thread.

Does anyone think it's possible that the AM could grow faster in the higher airflow medium I'm using? That's part of the rationale for the system. Increased airflow for the micro-life.

Hey,

No, I don't think so. AM fungi responds better to media with higher Co2 levels.

 

[ganja din redux]

We know that very high levels of especially inorganic (nute) sources of P can inhibit the function of AM

I wouldn't call it "high", high levels are not needed, at 32 ppm of P (that's from organic or inorganic sources, ions are ions) AM fungi will not sporulate and infections is greatly reduced. Past 20 ppm of P and AM fungi are greatly inhibited. So you see, that is why in the graph I uploaded AM fungi offer more P, because *NO* P was added to media. If P was added (ie. as gunao or colloidal phosphate) the P absorbed from non-infected plants would be higher.

No added P = use AM fungi

Added P = don't need to use AM fungi and probably a waste.
(unless as MM noted, it's all sequestered P as in colloidal phosphate and only a little is added)

 

[big ballin 88]

Trich is green without any H202, it is only white when it's young. And I think your referring to "cobweb" mould as to "bubbling", that is why H202 is used in mycology for cobweb.

- Thank you for claryfying this, i forgot about damned cobweb and that is the one that bubbles. Trich doesn't bubble it just wipes of that top layer

Many things will "glue" media particles together, mycosphers from non-AM fungi, bacterial bio-film and even plant exudates.

-I know, but the reason i feel it was AM was due to hyphae mycellium extending to the surface. Only in one or two areas,, agreed it could be any of the that you mentioned though, i just figured AM would link the whole source.

Trich *eats* AM fungi, not the AM fungi's foodsource.

-I never said that they have the same food source. Trich is a wood deomposer. Simply if trich is there first, AM will have a hard time settling in on top of it.

 

[ganja din redux]

Hey

Some trich (ie. Trich. virre (sp?)) is a "parasitic" fungi and can be a saphoric (sp?) fungi, etc. The trich sold in stores will eat AM fungi, the AM fungi will not grow over it AFAIK. They are almost "at war" with each other.

HTH

 

[rrog]

Hello GD. Thanks for stopping in and dropping those great links. I'm grateful.

I'm sorry I don't know your position on some of this already, so I hope I might ask a few questions.

I understood fungus to be aerobic, but never looked into this any further. Obviously that's not categorically true. The fungus in the root zone isn't anaerobic, is it?

Do you have a sense if AM Fungi in a balanced, receptive environment (for it) will provide a better P delivery mechanism that the alternative of supplementing P heavily?

I was making the distinction earlier in this thread between organic and inorganic sources (as bone meal and a chem salt might be compared). Organic I considered having the P locked away until released by microbial interaction. Inorganic would be a commercially available salt. Maybe that's wrong terminology.

Might there be value in adding additional organic (as per my use of the term above) sources of P as bloom begins?

Sorry for my ramblingly tome. Thanks much for your insights.

 

[ganja din redux]

To all,

Im not coming back to post here, I just wanted to help MM, and offer the info you guys asked for, my invisible posts, etc. Im too busy lately to post but I will post a lot again in public once my site is up, I don't want to post and then have them deleted, etc...

 

[rrog]

great... I took too long to respond in my post...

 

[ganja din redux]

Hey

Hello GD. Thanks for stopping in and dropping those great links. I'm grateful.

NP.

I'm sorry I don't know your position on some of this already, so I hope I might ask a few questions.

I understood fungus to be aerobic, but never looked into this any further. Obviously that's not categorically true. The fungus in the root zone isn't anaerobic, is it?

Their are degrees of "aerobic'ness" for microbes, fungi included, ie. obligate aerobe, etc. I am pretty sure there are some fungi classified as anaerobes, maybe not obligate anaerobes.

Do you have a sense if AM Fungi in a balanced, receptive environment (for it) will provide a better P delivery mechanism that the alternative of supplementing P heavily?

I am not sure, I have to think about it. I have to go to the hookah bar now tho, I'll respond soon.

I was making the distinction earlier in this thread between organic and inorganic sources (as bone meal and a chem salt might be compared). Organic I considered having the P locked away until released by microbial interaction. Inorganic would be a commercially available salt. Maybe that's wrong terminology.

(quick thoughts/explanation; forgive errors, I'll edit later)

There are "soluble" ions (ex. P cation) in guano, which are immediately available to the plant, but it's only a fraction of the OM (organic matter) P. Another ex. is colloidal phosphate, a rock powder, it has ~2-3% soluble P, IIRC. The microbes don't necessarily need to break it down if it's in base ions anyway.

Might there be value in adding additional organic (as per my use of the term above) sources of P as bloom begins?

Sorry for my ramblingly tome. Thanks much for your insights.

No prob. I am not sure, I have to think about it. I have to go to the hookah bar now tho, I'll respond soon.

 

[MrFista]

Bit of help to get ganga's files - if you click on them, it says save or download, click save, then change the name there and then, and where it says file type, change it from txt to all files. Then download and it'll open up easily.

Good to see you ganga, hang in there buddy.

I'm doing great at uni.

I can't wait to see your website - I'll email ya before too long.

 

[ganja din redux]

Hey RRog,

I understood fungus to be aerobic, but never looked into this any further. Obviously that's not categorically true. The fungus in the root zone isn't anaerobic, is it?

One thing to remember about media, especially soilless media (verses healthy soil), is there are areas (due to pore size between particles) which will hold more or less water, which relates to the amount of air held in so-called "air filled porosity". This means there can be pockets of media which hold more water vs. air (out of "total porosity"). In the areas with higher moisture content (by dry weight is most accurate) one can find anaerobic conditions and I would assume fungi that can thrive or at least live in those conditions.

Do you have a sense if AM Fungi in a balanced, receptive environment (for it) will provide a better P delivery mechanism that the alternative of supplementing P heavily?

No I don't think so. But a point is what is "heavily"? I am of the mind one could add less guano (for example) than is commonly suggested if the soil foodweb is healthy and nutrient cycling strong. There are many P solublizing microbes other than AM fungi, and AM fungi do best in P deplete media/soils. MM has some first hand experience in this regard, I think.

I was making the distinction earlier in this thread between organic and inorganic sources (as bone meal and a chem salt might be compared). Organic I considered having the P locked away until released by microbial interaction. Inorganic would be a commercially available salt. Maybe that's wrong terminology.

The ions a root takes up from the nutrient cycle is in the same form (without carbon) as ions from GH FloraNova. The former is referred to as "bio-available nutrients", "microbial bio-fertilizers", etc; but in the end they are the same cation, in the case of P, as we find in something from General Hydroponics.

Along with what I already wrote about a bio-available fraction of elements in most OM, here is a pic I made for a thread here a while ago:

Might there be value in adding additional organic (as per my use of the term above) sources of P as bloom begins?

No, not with AM fungi infected plants, it will probably do harm in two ways: 1) directly hinder AM fungi, and 2) make the plant less dependent upon the AM fungi so the plant will offer less food to the AM fungi which can 'starve' the AM fungi, further reducing it's ability to sporulate, infect and feed.

HTH