Ahh Bio-Bucket Plants Dieing

[terminalc]

I suspect I am having some root rot issues with my bio bucket system. I just built the system about a month ago and all seemed fine. I have a 1/4 horse res chiller that was set at 68, but the temperatures seemed to drift to the mid 70s; I once saw it at 78. Anyway here are my system specs.

10 600w lights
48 Bio-Buckets built to spec afaik.
5000gph mag drive pump
1/4HP water chiller
Just put in a 24000btu a/c
Injected co2 1500ppm with mostly airtight room.
GH Salts @ 1200 ppm ec*.5 Mixed Lucas Formula.
PH went down to 4.9 last week but has recently been climbing and is currently at 5.7.
D/O was at high 6s in the res when i got my meter and is 8.3 now.
Room temperatures were ~85 now ~75 when i realized i was having problems.
I also might add that i didn't have oscillating fans in my room, just put those in as well.

It is possible that i planted rooted clones too deep, i put the stem about 1/2" below water level. So as of right now, my water temp is 61. The tops of the plants look ok but they can barely stand themselves up,. I have just added hydroguard and hygrozyme, but i fear all my efforts were too late. My question is, should i give them h202 and clean the system out, leave things be, or toss them and start over? Roots are starting to look pretty red Pics speak more then words so...

Also it seems i need to upgrade my chiller what do you guys recommend?

 

[Brother_Monk]

You might wanna shoot Big Toke a pm about this. Bio buckets is his baby. He would be THE expert on this.

Peace
BM

 

[vta]

If your stems are weak I would suggest getting some Silica Blast. It really helps the plant fight stress and helps build up the stem walls.

 

[gmanwho]

Im no Bio Bucket expert, but i could throw some possible help your way.

Looks like you got some rot root there. i would check all your drainage on each bucket.See if the roots are starting to block the drains.

I also thought for keeping stress/shock low, you shouldnt have more then a 5 deg swing in your water temps. I would try to figure out why your temps where 78, then low 70's ..Now 61. Did you lower to 60 with the chiller? Temps should be like 68 to 72 i believe for the bio bucket system.

My take on temps is to be like 72 - 74 the first few weeks to build the beneficals , then start lowering the temps throughout the cycle, getting to 68- 70 during mid thru late bloom.

How old are those plants? Is it every plant in the system.

What strain?
Did you run 24/7 for a week before dropping plants in?
Did you happen to use subculture?
Did you use a medium for your clones? are those all same clones?

As for the stem being submerged, i think that a no no. you want the stem above water, with the roots draping down to the water.


The buckets that are getting effected, how far down the feed line are they? Do you notice them getting worse the farther they are from the pump?

Did you sterilize the lava rocks before hand? H2o2, boil or bake them?


Please, like i said im not a bio-bucket expert yet, key word .. yet. I am building a system as i speak.

Hope maybe i could have helped, and please if i any of my info is not correct, someone please jump in and set it straight.

As for the correct info, gotta get Big Toke in here, last i knew he wasn't arround much.There are alot of semi novice bio-bucketeirs arround, hopefully we can get them over to help. Wish daltron was was with us to help, may he RIP.

 

[gmanwho]

Another thing. how many gallons of water in your rez?

In your rez pic, is that your only return? Its hard to judge from the pic, but if thats your only return/waterfall. It looks like your return ammount is really low in terms if the pumps doing 5000gph.

Do you have an earlier pick of the plumbing? Im leaning towards there something up your your plumbing. Either it being the feed, or the drain side. But that flow out of that 4inch pipe seems awfull low to me.

I would also try using the DO meter on the farther buckets in the system. see how big if any of a DO drop.

IMO, yes a 5000gph pump is big, but i dont think its big enough for 48 buckets.

I would like to see a pic of your plumbing. if you have one.

 

[terminalc]

"Looks like you got some rot root there. i would check all your drainage on each bucket. See if the roots are starting to block the drains."

Nope roots are not big enough imo to clog the drains.

" I also thought for keeping stress/shock low, you shouldnt have more then a 5 deg swing in your water temps. I would try to figure out why your temps where 78, then low 70's ..Now 61. Did you lower to 60 with the chiller? Temps should be like 68 to 72 i believe for the bio bucket system."

My chiller wasn’t big enough to sustain the set temp of 68 with room temps of 85 with no a/c. I later installed an a/c and was able to bring air temp down to 75 and water down to 65 day 60 night. I brought temps down that far after I realized I had problems.

"My take on temps is to be like 72 - 74 the first few weeks to build the beneficals , then start lowering the temps throughout the cycle, getting to 68- 70 during mid thru late bloom."

I tried to keep mine 68 throughout but bought too small of a chiller.

"How old are those plants? Is it every plant in the system."

Plants 1 month old, 2wk flower. Yes every plant was having problems; some seem to be recovering the others have died.

"What strain?"
Hindu Kush

"Did you run 24/7 for a week before dropping plants in? "
Yes and Filled with tap water, ran one week with just water then put rocks in and ran another week.

"Did you happen to use subculture?"
No

"Did you use a medium for your clones? are those all same clones?"
Bare root out of an Ez-Cloner.

"As for the stem being submerged, i think that a no no. you want the stem above water, with the roots draping down to the water."

I agree that was a mistake on my part, if I could do it over I would plant them higher, I have went around and managed to get some of the plants higher so the stem can dry out more, some have black rot.

"The buckets that are getting effected, how far down the feed line are they? Do you notice them getting worse the farther they are from the pump?"

It was all the buckets, I tried to adjust with the valves so the flow looked acceptable.

"Did you sterilize the lava rocks before hand? H2o2, boil or bake them?"

No I did not.

I took some more pictures, hopefully they will give you a better idea of what is going on.

 

[gmanwho]

One thing i see that may contribute to heat. Im not sure if that rez cooler vents its compressor heat through the back like most do. The thing is, i would try to get the rez cooler away from the rez a little bit. If that is not possible, atleast turn the cooler so the back is venting elsewhere, instead of the heat cornering between the wall and rez. The rez being so close to the back of the water cooler is probally is in turn warming your rez.

I would cover your rez somehow, NO LIGHT. it probally will b a pain since you have all the piping top exposed in the rez. but i would figuire a way to cover it at any cost.

Next run or this run, insulate the drain and buckets, they are black. ever been in a black car in the sun? now i think you know what i mean. If you are in the states, the depot or lowes have great insulation, Many different types out there. I would probally us the thinner chrome/mylar looking insulation used for DUCT work. If thats not available,get the stuff for water heaters.

the feed lines: where the pvc is in contact with the floor, those seem fine. I would insulate the rubber hose leading out of the ball valve.

As for cleaning the lava rocks, thats a step the experts never do with out. Get a tub or 5 gallon buckets, dump a quart of H202, fill with lava rocks. then fill with tap water to above lave rock. let sit at least 24hrs, maybe give an occasional stir. then rinse the shit out of them.

As for the flow to each bucket:
Since you have some already dead plants. These buckets would be good to experiment with.

take note to where the ball valve is opened to.

close the ball valve, then drain that bucket somehow.

In memory to where the ball valve was, open the valve up to where it was. As soon as you start to open the valve, Start counting, 1 one thousand...... 2 one thousand ... 3 one thousand ...etc. See how many seconds it takes to fill the bucket to the drain line. Mark it down. with some number crunching you could figuire out your REAL refresh rate.

take a different bucket, one not so close in the PLUMBING LINE to the one you just tested. And do the same, i would go right towards one of the healthiest plants. pull the whole lid with the plant and roots intact, place it somewhere clean for a few minutes and test that bucket.

By doing this you could figuire out your REAL bucket refresh rate. Just because its a 5000gph pump, doesnt mean your getting good refresh rates. After all the plumbing line, and then the "head feet" the pump is probally only in the 3000 gph range.

IMO, if it is a mag drive pump, CHANGE IT NOW. put it on the shelf for backup and get an external pump made for coral reef or large aquariums. No mag drive pumps!!! they are not made to pump all this "head". get A reef pump, also known as REference or Dart. they run in HUGE salt water tanks for years at 24/7 before they should be rebuilt. they also use about 65% less amount of electricity as mag drive pumps do.


I just want to say one more thing, even thou i have yet to build a bio- bucket system like these, IMO, the plumbing feed end of the system needs to be redesigned for larger systems of 24 buckets or more. And this is why....

Check this, you have 1&1/2 in. feed, teeing to 3/4 then up approx 16 inches to the bucket lid, then a 90 degree elbow and out. in your system terminalc, you are lifting that water 48 fucking times with over a 1 foot head to each bucket!!! So almost in theory your making that pump work through 50 ft of "head" AT LEAST.

You need to run the 1&1/2 up to lid level! In one shot. Then in horizontal tee to the ball valve, horizontal to the rubber with only say a 3 inch piece of rubber through the bucket to the 90. And would have saved 45 ft of rubber hose.

YOU ONLY LIFT THE WATER ONCE!!! you have no gravity effecting the water in 16 or so inches of hose and ball valve.


As i lay to rest last night, the wheels where turning in my head. And thats what i came up with. I think you have a low refresh rate in your buckets. Because of all the piping and head.

Hope i helped, i will keep checking back.

B-safe

 

[terminalc]

You did help a great deal, thank you for your input. I will do the things you mentioned.

As for the res chiller, yes it does exhaust out the back right by my res, so i will move that further away.

I will go look for some of that insulation you mentioned and install it when i can.

I have a rubber mat that goes over the res, i removed it to give you a better idea of what was going on in there.

I agree with you on the plumbing, i have 24 buckets per line and its really hard to get the flow right. I plan to redo most of it next run if i make it that far.

I will check the flow like you said, I didn't even think of doing it that way, thanks. I went through last night and tried to make all the buckets read a 6.5ppm D/O. Any more flow seemed to backup the drains a bit and raise water level.

Also I could have put the pump inline but i chose to put it in the water to keep noise down, thought my chiller was big enough to handle it.

Thanks for your help so far, it looks like its turning around; I'll know better when the lights come on tonight. I plan to spend a bunch more time in the room doing the things you said, i'll try to update.

Oh and here is the pump i have.

http://www.poolandgarden.com/magentic-drive-pump-5000.html

 

[gmanwho]

I really .. really wish you had a pic of your total plumbing. Could you draw one up real quick, or create one on a pc program?

That pump is a magdrive, get a new one if you can afford it. External pump like this one in the pic.

the pump in the water is contribuitng to your heat issues as well. I am 100% sure of it.Infact i probally would move this out before i did any of the other insulations first. this pump running 24/7 drawing 380+ watts, ohhh yeah its giving off alot of heat.

If you insulate, move the rez cooler and get an external pump, you may not have to buy a bigger rez chiller. what are the specs on the chiller you currently own? If my perdictions are correct you are probably around a 275 gallon system with all the buckets, rez, and piping. So the 1/4hp may not be enough. but these other things should be done, still have crazy temp issues, then get another rez cooler.

the external i have is really quite. and only 140 watts!! Mag drives can be real loud.
1 pic is of the pump i purchased awhile back, its a 3600gph dart. VERY nice. 200 bucks.

IMO.If this was me, i would put 2 of these pumps pulling off your rez. 1 pump feeding the 24, the other pump feeding the other 24. But that my 2 cents.

If you are able to increase you DO you might be able to pull this one off. If i where you is build a simple venturi. I believe a venturi could be your savior with poor circulation rates. If you are not sure of what one is, do a search here.
Basically in your case, take some small air hose, fishtank air-hose,some small Diameter hose, something to experiment with. Place the hose outside of the rez, and place the other open end in the water next to the Intake of your pump. the vacuum from the water being sucked in will create a vacuum in the air hose sucking outside air in.the air being sucked in will hit the impellar of the pump, smash the air into millions of particles and distribute them throughout the feed system.

It will increase your DO. You have a DO meter, simply awesome. check the DO results after using the venturi. i would love to know the results.

Heres another pic of a a quick drawing i did for someone on the computer. he was using 24 bucket system. he was having issues to as well with gettin flow to buckets further down the line. the key is keeping it symetrical. Im not sure how it worked out or if he tried it, (he had like 3 other hydro setups he was messing with so i think the bio bucket system is now shut down unitll he can re-plumb it at a later time.) So i dont know the true outcome.

Please let me know your results, its kinda weird how i feels as this issue with your system is my problem as well. i just need to know. i arm myself with any and every possibility before i go into battle. My battle is schedueled to begin late next week

let me know your results. especially the DO meter with/venturi if you get a chance.

B-safe

 

[rule35sub1]

Make sure your buckets are getting the water exchanged at least 10 times per hour.
Make sure your water stays around 68F. Once root rot sets in , it is tough to get rid of. If you add some h2o2, you will likely kill your colony of beneficials, but I think that if root rot set in they are compromised already.

 

[terminalc]

I think you nailed it as a flow problem. I lost 4 more today and the others look worse. After looking up some of bigtokes stuff somewhere he said that his buckets were the same d/o as his res. So in that case my res is 8 and so should be my buckets? I went around and readjusted the ball valves so the whole 1”1/4 drain was submerged, my D/O is now ~7.8 in all buckets (about 30 at this time).

I moved the res chiller another 5 ft. or so away, hopefully that eases the temps up a bit, although its been easy to keep under 68 after I installed the a/c and brought ambient room temp down.

The plumbing is pretty simple and done wrong I believe at this point. Here is a drawing of basically how it goes. I feel I should have had four supply lines with 12 buckets each instead of 2 lines with 24 buckets each. It’s hard to adjust flow with that many buckets. Also since it is between the buckets under the drain line the rubber hose gets long on some of the buckets, I even had one airlock when I was first testing the system…

I will try the venturi thing tomorrow and see if it does anything for my d/o levels. I did a little searching around and have the general idea of what is going on. As I understand it the water flowing through the pipe sucks in air as it goes by the venturi. And your saying to put a small tube in my res by the pump intake and it will have a similar effect? I wonder if I can find a pre-made venturi to screw into my pump I think it has a 1”1/4 fpt? Also can’t they be installed on the pump output line as well? It sure would be nice if D/O levels could be sustained at max without the noise of the waterfall.

Also why do you say to keep the pump as backup? I thought mag drives were good? It can be installed externally if I wanted by taking it out of the case, but this thing is loud almost as bad as the a/c when out of the water. The flow does seem sufficient for the 30 buckets I have left running, but it likely was not adequate for 48, with my current plumb job anyway.

Well I guess that’s about it for now I am going to order more plumbing supplies

 

[rule35sub1]

You can add a venturi anywhere in a flow line.
I think you are right about too many buckets on one line, the most I have ever seen was 18, dropping to 12 per seems like a good idea.

 

[gmanwho]

IMO mag drives are made for pumping, basically used to recirculate, Nothing with major resistance. They use about 3 times as much power. they get twice as hot because of that power consumption. The Impellar design of the pump make them not reliable for extend periods of use. I was saying buy a different pump and keep that as backup.

But then again you can do whatever you wish. just seems that every 2 out of 6 larger (24 or more) bio systems i read about, people talk of all these problems that are linked to mag pumps shitting the bed on them or poor gph performance.

i figured out before that with the amount of electricity mag pumps use. you could by a non mag pump, it would pay for iteself in just over 6 months with the amount of electricity it saves.

As for running 4 lines of 12, i would say it seems like a better solution.

As for the venturi, i do believe they can be installed after the pump. A little research could go along way.

What kind of DO meter do you have, like or dislikes about it. going to purchase one soon. just want some opinions.

So what was your refresh rate before and now?

b-safe

 

[Guest]

what the heck is a venturi?

 

[terminalc]

Ok so i finally got around to checking my refill rate and it takes 2 minutes for the farthest bucket... So thats 30 times an hr? This is after shutting off 24 buckets.

I am waiting on my plumbing parts they should have been here today. I think I am going to have to restart the system, plants are rotting at the stem 1 by 1 with the water at 60-65 d/o at 8.6 and no light leaks. I won’t plant as deep next time lol. I thought about doing the h2O2 thing but I don’t know if they are worth saving honestly, I almost think I would be better off to start over.

I just ordered 2 “Sequence ReeFlo Dart Pump, 3600 GPH” And put some 1/8 line by my intake pump and it raised d/o from 8.4 to 8.6 so I am curious what a mazzei venturi and nozzle setup would do…

http://www.mazzei.net/injector_info.htm
http://www.mazzei.net/nozzles_mtm.htm

I bought ¾” and 1.5” bulkheads to stop my leak problems once and for all I am changing the return line size to 1.5” and adding cam locs to some slick hose instead of 1.25” to sump hose. I hope to be able to disconnect buckets easily. I plan to add disconnects to the supply line and the drain at some point as well. I still have yet to insulate the buckets but being that I only have 5 lights on now heat is not an issue at all.

The meter I have is a Milwaukee its green got it on ebay. Nothin special but it seems to work. I think it was like 160 or something. Only bitch is that it takes a minute or so to get a good reading, but they may all be like that I don’t know.

Hey gman I like your quote, I see Ed’s medical garden sign up every time I go over hwy 20. There was a big field there before the feds decided they wanted to smoke it. Oh, I was giving some serious thought about going soil but I’ve put so much time into learning hydroponics that I’d hate to ditch it now. All I know is that I’ll have some serious expenses, hope the medical patients will reimburse some Well i have to go, thanks everyone.

 

[gmanwho]

you should check your refill rate when all buckets are flowing. I mean thats what they normally do, flow all at the same time. So why read them for something you dont do.

Glad you decided with the pumps, you can run those 2 pumps and still save on electricity compared to that mag. You goto any large fish place, you will see mags on filter setups, but anything with mass ammount of of water movement will have these other style external pumps. mags are good when you have small amount of plumbing, thats it.

It will all work out, prepare the clones is say, if they arent already. i always start double the amount of clones in case of failure.

Imo Soil is a pain, 2 much to soil to lug arround, then what WTF do you do with 100 cubic feet of soil when the plants are finished. some reuse it, but i sure as hell wont. Just a mess.

As for the bulkheads, you sure they will work on the buckets? the buckets have a camber to them, bulheads are designed for flat surfaces, and buckets are not. This would be news if they work.

Also bulkheads, at the depot or lowes, go to the electrical part aisles, get grey conduit pvc piping. I built all my 2" bulkheads for less then $4 a piece. Try 9.00 ordering online.

Terminalc dont give up, your just tweaking it, just tweaking it. It will all work out.

B-safe

 

[Flasht2]

Noone ever offered the advice of not using Lucas formula in the bio bucket. To quote BT again... don't use Lucas in bio bucket... read other bio bucket threads.. people add lucas formula and trouble seems to follow. I would offer that as my only advice, and it's not even my advice.

 

[Dirty South]

Hey bud, I'm running 24 bucket setup, I started with fans on plants, and 5th week flowering the stems are pincil size at the tips, and holding buds nicely.

 

[MID TOWN]

whats up. I ran BIO BUCKETS twice and got root rot right at the base of the stalk both times with the plants falling over just like yours. completely ruining both crops. although I didn't have root temps of 78, I feel the bio bucket system is flawed in 2 ways. the net pots and base of stalk should not be submergerged at all except for when the clones are first getting rooted and dont have roots dangling in the water yet and air stones should be used. an air pump realy doesn't take much electricity and It's a big risk not using one.

I have since solved both of these problems and am now growing just fine without any rot.

 

[Getawaymonkey!]

My netpots stay submerged and inch from the cotyledons and Ive seen no problems.
And an air pump is ESSENTIAL to enjoy a harvest from ANY hydro system. Without O2, yours plant will drown in the solution.

I think the problems you are all having is with chasing your Ph all the time,and not flushing regularly...... not solution circulation.
(I flush every 2 weeks regardless of problems and I dont worry about Ph in this system)
Many,many runs and still going strong.....

You keep adding and adding nutes to your solution thinking you are giving them what they want,...but all you're doing is decreasing the Ph buffering capacity of the solution and increasing salt concentrations(as your plant eats only what it needs leaving excess nutrients(aka SaLTS) in the solution. As this level goes higher and higher it becomes toxic,... thus causing all sorts of problems that a newbie often mistakes for a def, and then he/she adds more nutes ,...making the problem worse and fatal quickly.

Keep in mind people...this isnt your run of the mill hydro system...But, Im convinced that a retarded monkey can grow weed with this system its so easy!...You really have to try to mess up with this system to get bad results, in my experience and in my opinion.

I dont see what the problem is! ......STOP CHASING PH AND FLUSH REGULAR.....
simple!!