Aeroponic pump question

[Dave_the_stoner]

I've been all over the search feature, yahoo, google. I can not for the life of me find out what specifics to look for in a pump suitable for an aeroponic application. Is there a rule of thumb on a pumps GPH/ a given sized area? Or another method of determining what size pump I would need for the space I wish to build the system in?
I've looked through the systems on ebay and they seem to mostly use those little cheap aquarium pumps, I figure those would be fine for a aerocloner, but I was hoping to flower plants about a foot or so tall at finish in an aero setup.
Any help or enlightenment is appreciated.

 

[Me2]

The pump needs to be geared to the nozzles pressure and flow rate.
Low pressure nozzles like the ez-clone type will work with a pond pump. Fogging/misting nozzles need a lot more pressure but not much flow.
It all boils down to the what kind of nute delivery you want and how you define aeroponics..sprinkle/spray or almost invisible mist

 

[Carboy]

I've been all over the search feature, yahoo, google. I can not for the life of me find out what specifics to look for in a pump suitable for an aeroponic application. Is there a rule of thumb on a pumps GPH/ a given sized area? Or another method of determining what size pump I would need for the space I wish to build the system in?
I've looked through the systems on ebay and they seem to mostly use those little cheap aquarium pumps, I figure those would be fine for a aerocloner, but I was hoping to flower plants about a foot or so tall at finish in an aero setup.
Any help or enlightenment is appreciated.

As Me2 said all depends on how you are defining aeroponics.
I would say one rule of thumb for pumps would be that you are looking at GPM pumps not GPH. You'd be looking at diaphragm, turbine, piston etc. that are made to produce pressure, not a mag pump. So you'd be looking at GPM @ PSI ratings. Really what you need to do is start w/ the misters (or sprayers -- again depending on how you define/use them) and work your way back to the pump that is required to do the job. You can get misters that use less than 1/2 GPH @ 30psi. A pump doing even 1 gpm is going to handle a shitload of them. Want a finer spray? Raise the psi, find what the miser produces at that point and recalculate. W/ what I'm calling aero, there isn't any Plug n' Play that I know of. But to give you idea of what is available http://www.mistmonster.com/html/mist_monster_literature.html
And I fucking want one !!
CB

 

[Oldmac]

I am in the process of setting up an aero/fog grow tray. The aero side uses a Surflo pump and Bete Co. impingement nozzles with an orifice of .012". Have experimented up to 250psi, but that is pushing the John Guest fittings, so will probably run it @ 180-200psi. Run time will be about 7-8 SECONDS per 1/2 hour.

The fog side uses a FrapaPlas ultrasonic fogger that produces a "dry" fog (5 microns or less) and it's run time will be about 10 minutes per 1/2 hour. And it gives you fog like this.

I have an album with more pics detailing the constrution of "fogfognugen", if anybody is interested.

 

[Dave_the_stoner]

You guys are great, I guess I was looking at lower end misters which is why I wasn't seeing any PSI/GPM rating.
As for my definition on aeroponics I want the most efficient growing method possible to utilize the space I have available to grow in. So I'm prepared to take my time, decide on the best plans that I can draw up and calculate out, save up to buy the best moderately priced equipment I can over a period of time, and get something beautiful put together.
Whats your guy's thoughts on the foggers vs. misters? I was thinking misters would be preferable, but it's worth asking which is more efficient.

 

[Me2]

Oldmac,
From your mist timing i guess you are running the pump directly from the cycle timer. You`ll probably find a 1-2 second misting pulse will fill the root chamber with mist, anything more is a waste.
Once you know what length of misting pulse is enough to fills the chamber you shouldn`t need to change it. To control the quantity of nutes delivered to the roots just vary the pause duration. Reducing the pause duration gives you more misting pulses per hour and increasing the pause time gives you less.
Misting the roots little and often is better than a deluge twice an hour

 

[Oldmac]

Hey Dave, you have the right idea about taking your time and planning your system well. The planning will pay off in big dividends in the long run. As to which is better, misters vs foggers, over the last few years it has been shown the smaller the particule size the better. Fog of 5 microns or less is directly available to the roots. I lean towards fog but most home growers have been using "pond foggers" that have a problem with keeping the transducers clean. They tend to crude up from nutrients real easy. The Frapaplas fogger I'm using has been used in horticulture applications for many years now (10 or so) and is more reliable but it costs much more, abt $629 canadian. I'm using the seperate pump/misters mostly for redunancy, either system on it's own will grow plants nicely.

 

[Oldmac]

Oldmac,
From your mist timing i guess you are running the pump directly from the cycle timer. You`ll probably find a 1-2 second misting pulse will fill the root chamber with mist, anything more is a waste.
Once you know what length of misting pulse is enough to fills the chamber you shouldn`t need to change it. To control the quantity of nutes delivered to the roots just vary the pause duration. Reducing the pause duration gives you more misting pulses per hour and increasing the pause time gives you less.
Misting the roots little and often is better than a deluge twice an hour

Hi Me2,
I am running the pump directly from the cycle timer, as opposed to pressurizing a tank and using solenoids as many aero sytems use. In my case it takes the pump running abt 2-3 seconds just to pressurize to 180+psi, then another 3-4 seconds to fill the tray with wet fog (a 4'x4' 6" deep tray is 8cuft). I may trim that down some when it goes into production. Keep in mind that it is not the only fog event tho, 10 mins after the wet fog the ultrasonic fogger goes on for 10 mins, then after 10 min lull, the pump does it's thing again. All of this timing is subject to change based on how the plants do and what they want, but in smaller systems I've built previous I think it will be a good starting point.

BTW the pump/mister even at 10 sec is not nearly a deluge, more like someone opened a pressurized can of fog. Plus I'm really leaning heavy on the FrapaPlas fogger, almost all of it's fog is 5 microns or less, exactly what roots are looking for.

Thanks for the input, sounds like you be doing aero too.

 

[Carboy]

You guys are great, I guess I was looking at lower end misters which is why I wasn't seeing any PSI/GPM rating.
Whats your guy's thoughts on the foggers vs. misters? I was thinking misters would be preferable, but it's worth asking which is more efficient.

Gets tricky here again. And again back to definitions.
Let's use Oldmacs example and say less than 5 microns is fog. We know his Fraplas fogger will do that. But if you look at the Mist Monster link above and click on the Nozzle literature, you will see two nozzles that will also do <5 mic. So does that turn it into a fogger instead of a mister? Damned if I know.
My goal is to make a root zone that has 100% RH w/ as much O2 as possible to be available w/ the necessary nutes. Mine is far from perfect but here is what I do. I have vertical tubes that feeds from the top 24/7. 60-80psi .75GPH/mister -- give or take. Slight vacuum (and gravity) encourage the mist to fall. Haven't been able to put calipers on it or anything, but should be in the 50 mic range. When the tube fills w/ roots, some will get the mist and the rest is kinda/sorta NFT. Back up is a constant trickle running down the back of each tube. Filtering has been my biggest issue. I think I've got it whipped, but I've said that before too. Not perfect and not where I want it end up. That's just where I'm at now.
Planning is very necessary but I'd encourage you to start small and get your hands dirty (or is it feet wet? Running out of puns fast here.) You can get a Shurflo like Oldmac pictured, some nozzles, tubing, filters and an old tub. Be able to play around for less than 200 bucks. That'll give you many ideas and something to plan around. Be very very careful ----- this shit is additive. The process, not the product.
Be glad to help you anyway I can, but Oldmac and Me2 are probably better qualified.
CB

 

[Dave_the_stoner]

The more I look into it, the more I realize I may as well go for a big ass setup, rather than the small setup I was originally planing on for not all that much more money.
So I got started on tearing out some waste of space, only a tweeker would think this shit looks good wannabe features put in by the last owner, and I'm going to build a small growroom. May go DWC for the first run til' I can afford to save up for the quality gear to switch it over to aero. But I'm gonna get a couple thousand watts of HID instead of the original 600w I was planning on, this will enable me to get started sooner than I anticipated, and more time to plan out what to buy for aeroponics, hopefully make the switch after first harvest.

 

[PetFlora]

www.reptilebasics.com sells misting systems for reptiles. Virtually all the same equipment is used Aeroponically for high pressure fogging. I just got 2 of their quad heads for my next grow which will incorporate a high pressure Aquatec type pump at 50 psi. Stone bubblers will be used as a backup inside the root chamber and in the reservoir.

I played with Ultrasonic Foggers (UF) and low pressure mist heads. This works when used simultaneously. HOWEVER, UFs fail fast above 400 ppms. Also, UFs create a lot of heat which could destroy the nutrients.

The roots absorb nutrients through osmotic exchange, meaning the fog needs to be wet. I saw this in my grow.

40-60 micron droplets are plenty small for roots to gorge on. Time is more of a factor here. It depends on how long it takes to fill your root chamber with a dense fog: the smaller the chamber the shorter the on/off times.

 

[fatigues]

The more I look into it, the more I realize I may as well go for a big ass setup, rather than the small setup I was originally planing on for not all that much more money.
So I got started on tearing out some waste of space, only a tweeker would think this shit looks good wannabe features put in by the last owner, and I'm going to build a small growroom. May go DWC for the first run til' I can afford to save up for the quality gear to switch it over to aero. But I'm gonna get a couple thousand watts of HID instead of the original 600w I was planning on, this will enable me to get started sooner than I anticipated, and more time to plan out what to buy for aeroponics, hopefully make the switch after first harvest.

Dave, I recommend you look at Pirate's setup here on ICM and at Stinkbud's system as well. They are just strting points for you own system. Don't slavishly copy either of them, imo.

You should be fine with a 360GPH running one tray/tote with the same overall size of Pirate's setup. When you want to add more trays - just add more totes and pumps rather than attempt to pressurize one entire pipe system between multiple trays/totes. You end up having to pressurize more pvc pipe than you need to that way. Keep it simple and then the only complexity required is simple recirculaton between the rez totes so you can pump to your chiller and keep all rez's cooled. Use simple flexible hose and a few small pumps for this purpose.

You are probably better off starting smaller than going for the gusto on a 2K Watt low pressure Aero system to start. Aeroponics, even low pressure Aero, are relatively unforgiving systems - so learning on a smaller 400 or 600watt system will give you experience with it you'll be better off having.

There really isn't any need to get a bigger pump to handle multiples grow trays/tables/totes (whatever you are using) - a 360GPH pump and tote per "grow box" can service 6 to 16 mister sites per when using ez cloner mister nozzles.

Again, the only real issue that needs looking at as you scale it up is your recirculation between multiple rez's to a chiller. But that' not that hard to work out and, again, multiple small pumps circulating water between rez's (while another pumps to your chiller) will assure you of balanced cooling.

It doesn't really assist you all that much to spend more on large and expensive pumps (that will wear out) just so you can pressurize far more pipe than you need to with just one big ass pump. Reduce the complexity and length of your pressurized PVC pipes and just use multiple numbers of relatively small pumps for the task. This also insulates your system from a massive crop threat due to pump failure. If you use just one big ass pump to mist all of your plants across multiple sites, your vulnerability to pump failure goes way up. Multiple numbers of smaller pumps reduces vulnerability to your whole crop; moreover, it's easier to afford a backup 360GPH for $25 or so pump to keep on hand to come to the rescue when one pump fails, rahter than keep a $160.00 higher pressure pump on hand in the emergency cupboard.

1000+GPH pumps at $150 or more per are simply not necessary for low pressure Aero. No need for 'em at all. When it comes to timing control for all your mister pumps, just run them off a power bar linked to the same cycle timer and you're good to go. Cycle timers are necessary but pain in the ass expense for aeroponics - you don't need an expensive cycle timer and you don't need more than one if you just wire up the power to all of your pumps to the same power bar powered by one cycle timer. In that way, one simple $80 cycle timer can control your whole pump setup, easily - even if you have six of them.