livingluminarie
New member
Why buy chemical phs when you can get a organic one in Earth juice? Just wondering why chemicals when organic products can do the same thing, but better when it comes to taste.
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Why buy chemical phs when you can get a organic one in Earth juice? Just wondering why chemicals when organic products can do the same thing, but better when it comes to taste.
why support car companies by buying a car that ya think is cool looking? but may not be the best suited for your lifestyle? why put your money in a bank that is a "monopoly" over other smaller banks? why shop at this big grocery retailer? when you could shop at smaller "mom/pop" type grocery? mullray and friends should start a thread based on AN prices and why you shouldnt buy them since most of his posts are about how "expensive" AN is. maybe ill talk shit about H&G and how their bud xl is $55 or the shooting powder is $65 or their a/b is a few CENTS more than AN. if your worried about CENTS, then you should be spending ANY money of grow supplies PERIOD
Y
YosemiteSam
citric acid is not just a cheaper pH down...it is a better pH down for the reasons Mullray mentioned. Better and cheaper is a pretty good combo.
Thing is we aren't just talking about cost although you would like to portray it that way. It is relatively simple to design a better nute than any of the hydro nute companies...they have agendas other than just the best nute for you.
Hell, those of us that do things this way are happy to share those formulas with the community. Adding dry ingredients is every bit as easy as measuring liquid quantities...especially when you are talking up to 15 products for the GM bundle.
If they were the same price I would be making my own.
Thing is we aren't just talking about cost although you would like to portray it that way. It is relatively simple to design a better nute than any of the hydro nute companies...they have agendas other than just the best nute for you.
Hell, those of us that do things this way are happy to share those formulas with the community. Adding dry ingredients is every bit as easy as measuring liquid quantities...especially when you are talking up to 15 products for the GM bundle.
If they were the same price I would be making my own.
heres a little fuel for the "hate AN fire" www.integralhydro.com
Actually for some reason I loved there Jump Start product. It was never that expensive and always worked well for what it was. I also liked the VHO for some reason everything else never impressed me much. I must say I have spend a large amount of money on nutrients I always look for new stuff to buy just as an addiction
TicalionStalion
Active member
jumpstart and VHO are some great products. I wish they still made the VHO, I would stock up. Its amazing what that stuff does for your vegging plants/seedlings/rooted clones. amazing.
Iv been thinking of using tricarboxylic acids for PH down...can anyone tell me if its any easier on your microbe population?? I dont wanna be killing off my bennies with PH down. also...does it have the strength to keep your PH down? I noticed it took alot of the tricarb acids to lower a gallon jug even a little bit....if anyone can clear this up Id appreciate it. Im pretty sure tricarboxylic acids are very similar/closely related to citric acids, if not the same?
thanks fellas.
Iv been thinking of using tricarboxylic acids for PH down...can anyone tell me if its any easier on your microbe population?? I dont wanna be killing off my bennies with PH down. also...does it have the strength to keep your PH down? I noticed it took alot of the tricarb acids to lower a gallon jug even a little bit....if anyone can clear this up Id appreciate it. Im pretty sure tricarboxylic acids are very similar/closely related to citric acids, if not the same?
thanks fellas.
B
Bud Bug
Jump Start copied the name to compete with Grotek Kick Start http://www.grotek.net/en/products/product.aspx?id=58 which I think where copies of of Later's Root Booster 5-15-5.
Vitaboost Plus Vitamax/Vitamax Plus hmmmm
AFAIK AN's Jumpstart is discontinued and it's (from a video showing the label):
5% Vitamin B1 (Derived from Thiamine Hydrocloride)
6% Humic acid (Derived from leonardite)
3.5% Seaweed extract (Derived from Ascophyllum Nodosum)
Grotek's Kick Start is (according to the MSDS and the website)
NPK 1-2-1
Density = 1.12g/ml
Derived from Magnesium nitrate and monopotassium phosphate.
Based on these datas it's easy to calculate that this product contains:
32,5g monopotassium phosphate.
91,49g magnesium nitrate
So it also contains 0,87% Mg.
At the recommended rate (30ml / 4 liter) it adds:
N
2O5:K2O ratio = 1 : 2 : 1
N:K ratio = 1,2 : 1,1 : 1
K:N ratio = 1 : 1,2
5% Vitamin B1 (Derived from Thiamine Hydrocloride)
6% Humic acid (Derived from leonardite)
3.5% Seaweed extract (Derived from Ascophyllum Nodosum)
Grotek's Kick Start is (according to the MSDS and the website)
NPK 1-2-1
Density = 1.12g/ml
Derived from Magnesium nitrate and monopotassium phosphate.
Based on these datas it's easy to calculate that this product contains:
32,5g monopotassium phosphate.
91,49g magnesium nitrate
So it also contains 0,87% Mg.
At the recommended rate (30ml / 4 liter) it adds:
- 84 N
- 73,2 P
- 69,7 K
- 81,5 Mg
N
2O5:K2O ratio = 1 : 2 : 1N
:K ratio = 1,2 : 1,1 : 1K:N ratio = 1 : 1,2
B
Bud Bug
You might be able to dig out stuff from here http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://advancednutrients.com
Here's the old VitaMaxPlus label from archive.org http://web.archive.org/web/20021026073201/grotek.net/images/VitaPlus.jpg
Here's the AN one
Here's the old VitaMaxPlus label from archive.org http://web.archive.org/web/20021026073201/grotek.net/images/VitaPlus.jpg
Here's the AN one
B
Bud Bug
Now not trying to give Grotek any credit here but they do copy or license other products like MM2000 which is either a full copy or they get it from Nutrilife SM 90. SM stands for Spider Mite and I'd images MM stand for Mite and Mildew since SM 90 is also used for mildew control.
This industry full of gems.
How about Grotek's old product called Rage which contained chitosan http://web.archive.org/web/20030416195211/http://www.grotek.net/pdf/foliar.pdf . Not sure who copied who but GH also had Chi and best part is they both never worked, that's why they don't manufacture them any more. Surprised other companies are still promoting those kind of products.
The one I find the most interesting is.
Advanced Nutrients - Heavy Harvest
Nutrilife - Heavy Harvest
Both companies from the the Vancouver area. I don't ever remember Nutrilife saying anything about AN using the exact same name of a plant food.
This is the earliest AN page I could find
http://web.archive.org/web/20021122120301/http://advancednutrients.com/
This is Nutrilife
http://web.archive.org/web/20010306060052/www.nutrilifeproducts.com/products3.htm
This industry full of gems.
How about Grotek's old product called Rage which contained chitosan http://web.archive.org/web/20030416195211/http://www.grotek.net/pdf/foliar.pdf . Not sure who copied who but GH also had Chi and best part is they both never worked, that's why they don't manufacture them any more. Surprised other companies are still promoting those kind of products.
The one I find the most interesting is.
Advanced Nutrients - Heavy Harvest
Nutrilife - Heavy Harvest
Both companies from the the Vancouver area. I don't ever remember Nutrilife saying anything about AN using the exact same name of a plant food.
This is the earliest AN page I could find
http://web.archive.org/web/20021122120301/http://advancednutrients.com/
This is Nutrilife
http://web.archive.org/web/20010306060052/www.nutrilifeproducts.com/products3.htm
couchlockd
Active member
i been away for a while, adding to my collection of fine firearms, so i been busy.
i should let you guys know, i absolutely 100% am sold on "veganics" as some like to call it.
i got some botles of "pure vida grow and bloom" in pint bottles like 2 years ago. i decided i would use the pure vida as a one partusing only the grow bottle and some botanicar calmag for my mothers, which are in a 18" X36" cabinet, with a 175watt MH, and constant ventilation.
anyway, i used the pure vida grow along with the batanicare cal mag and AN HUMIC AND FULVIC. i would feed once every ten days and anytime they went dry they would get jsut pure plain unadjusted RO water.
the whole time i was doing this for my mothers, and having great results, i was using Sensi Bloom, or conny or GH Flora series, or something "SUPED UP SYTHETICS" to boost my ..........boost my whatever the fuck its supposed to boost, who know, but i was using sythetics on the production plants, which are in a C02 enrched enviroment @1500ppm under a 600 w hps. 2'X5'X8' closet.
after constanly wrestilng/fighting/battling some type of deficiency or another, or always having something that needed tweaked, and still with what i would call mediocre resluts.
i stepped back and said, "shit, shit, shit, how is it that i dont even really spend much time at all with the mothers, and they are fucking stellar looking. getting fed one part organics, not ph adjusted at all, and once every ten days. they have no issues at all. my production plants at times look like hell to me, and im constantly having to do something or change something and still no where near the look of vigor as my mothers"
well it took me two more tries at sythetics after that, then i finally said fuck it if im really going to run the production plants the same as the mothers, one part easy breezy organics in a bottle, then i HAVE TO ACTUALLY DO IT INSTEAD OF SAYING IT>
which i did, i was out of pure vida, and it somehow is twice the price it was when i got it for free (i know free is free, but im talking about the MSRP at the time i go thte samples)so i ended up getting General Organics "BIO THRIVE W/ CaMg+ which is a organic calmag supplement.
stated using these nutes on the production plants, and man, i feed everytime i water, i dont have to spend hours on end waiting for the solution to stabilize and then PH it. NO, none of that, not one bit of nonsense at all. just bright green leaves perked up right about 45 degrees or so, and bright green stems, perfect 12"-ish fan leaves, compact nodes, the whole nine yards baby.
im only on day 23 of flower, and they are bangin' i cant believe they look like the way they do, and i dont spend but 20 minutes a week on the garden total.
i have feed four consecutive watering so far and no signs of any builup, PH drifts, or burning.
i also use great white, and i use 2 types of enzymes, hygrozyme, and sensizyme, i use bio bud bloom booster, along with bio root, and diamond black.
i follow the chart to the letter, and have not been happier, look better than pictures in magazines, (which most time i feel are lacking one way or another anyhow, IMHO) i am proud of this milestone i was able to accomplish, which was a mental block i had about trying things different, i was soo scared to try new thing, especially something as out of the box as not ph adjusting, feed everythime. coming from conny, flora series, sensibloom. and soo used to sensitivety to burning on chemmy nuts, i was terrified to feed everytime. but i did, and never looked back.
now i know what you might be thinking if you made it this far through my post, you ll be =saying "This Dickhead, front runner, has just jumped on the "veganics" shit. just like he did with conny, and thinks he found the holly grail or something, what a newb"
well i can assure im not a newb, nor a front runner, as i been using "vegan" stuff on my mothers for over 2 years now, and finally had the good sense to try it on my flowering plants, yes i just now s started using the vegan stuff for bloom plants but i been seeing the benifits for over 2 years prior to that, ans always wanted to jsut didnt have the balls, or good sense i should say.
id be willing to even put up the cash for a skeptic, buy him a set of quarts fo the GENERAL ORGANICS LINE and send them to his house. really i would, im that sure this is the way.
maybe it could be that the "vegan" nutes, compliment my gardening style better than synthetics, and not really better, just better in my situation, could be, but never the less, it works for me and i aint changin any time soon ....... or should i say at all.
i should let you guys know, i absolutely 100% am sold on "veganics" as some like to call it.
i got some botles of "pure vida grow and bloom" in pint bottles like 2 years ago. i decided i would use the pure vida as a one partusing only the grow bottle and some botanicar calmag for my mothers, which are in a 18" X36" cabinet, with a 175watt MH, and constant ventilation.
anyway, i used the pure vida grow along with the batanicare cal mag and AN HUMIC AND FULVIC. i would feed once every ten days and anytime they went dry they would get jsut pure plain unadjusted RO water.
the whole time i was doing this for my mothers, and having great results, i was using Sensi Bloom, or conny or GH Flora series, or something "SUPED UP SYTHETICS" to boost my ..........boost my whatever the fuck its supposed to boost, who know, but i was using sythetics on the production plants, which are in a C02 enrched enviroment @1500ppm under a 600 w hps. 2'X5'X8' closet.
after constanly wrestilng/fighting/battling some type of deficiency or another, or always having something that needed tweaked, and still with what i would call mediocre resluts.
i stepped back and said, "shit, shit, shit, how is it that i dont even really spend much time at all with the mothers, and they are fucking stellar looking. getting fed one part organics, not ph adjusted at all, and once every ten days. they have no issues at all. my production plants at times look like hell to me, and im constantly having to do something or change something and still no where near the look of vigor as my mothers"
well it took me two more tries at sythetics after that, then i finally said fuck it if im really going to run the production plants the same as the mothers, one part easy breezy organics in a bottle, then i HAVE TO ACTUALLY DO IT INSTEAD OF SAYING IT>
which i did, i was out of pure vida, and it somehow is twice the price it was when i got it for free (i know free is free, but im talking about the MSRP at the time i go thte samples)so i ended up getting General Organics "BIO THRIVE W/ CaMg+ which is a organic calmag supplement.
stated using these nutes on the production plants, and man, i feed everytime i water, i dont have to spend hours on end waiting for the solution to stabilize and then PH it. NO, none of that, not one bit of nonsense at all. just bright green leaves perked up right about 45 degrees or so, and bright green stems, perfect 12"-ish fan leaves, compact nodes, the whole nine yards baby.
im only on day 23 of flower, and they are bangin' i cant believe they look like the way they do, and i dont spend but 20 minutes a week on the garden total.
i have feed four consecutive watering so far and no signs of any builup, PH drifts, or burning.
i also use great white, and i use 2 types of enzymes, hygrozyme, and sensizyme, i use bio bud bloom booster, along with bio root, and diamond black.
i follow the chart to the letter, and have not been happier, look better than pictures in magazines, (which most time i feel are lacking one way or another anyhow, IMHO) i am proud of this milestone i was able to accomplish, which was a mental block i had about trying things different, i was soo scared to try new thing, especially something as out of the box as not ph adjusting, feed everythime. coming from conny, flora series, sensibloom. and soo used to sensitivety to burning on chemmy nuts, i was terrified to feed everytime. but i did, and never looked back.
now i know what you might be thinking if you made it this far through my post, you ll be =saying "This Dickhead, front runner, has just jumped on the "veganics" shit. just like he did with conny, and thinks he found the holly grail or something, what a newb"
well i can assure im not a newb, nor a front runner, as i been using "vegan" stuff on my mothers for over 2 years now, and finally had the good sense to try it on my flowering plants, yes i just now s started using the vegan stuff for bloom plants but i been seeing the benifits for over 2 years prior to that, ans always wanted to jsut didnt have the balls, or good sense i should say.
id be willing to even put up the cash for a skeptic, buy him a set of quarts fo the GENERAL ORGANICS LINE and send them to his house. really i would, im that sure this is the way.
maybe it could be that the "vegan" nutes, compliment my gardening style better than synthetics, and not really better, just better in my situation, could be, but never the less, it works for me and i aint changin any time soon ....... or should i say at all.
Lol..... You're fucking joking right? Big Mike is a lying arsewipe - me I'm not. BTW - I do not sell a product so my nutrients are not a product if you take the point. Yes Vag, it does interest me that Big Bud is very high on K and very low on P. It's just one of the reasons I put it through the lab. It's an interesting approach and definitely Overdrive will work nicely and for many years I have formulated a similar product (high on NO3 N which is not something that most producers do with formulation for bloom boosters).
Try not to get your pants in a knot
m ray whats your version of overdrive? il run it 100%, d
analogue
Member
Juicy Roots. It belongs in the over-rated category. Meaning that I saw absolutely no benefit to using it.
Hormodin 3 runs circles around juicy roots and you'll die before you use it all up.
I love the reply at the store where I bought Juicy Roots.
"Oh, you're not using it right"
Hormodin 3 runs circles around juicy roots and you'll die before you use it all up.
I love the reply at the store where I bought Juicy Roots.
"Oh, you're not using it right"
Bud bug: I couldn't find my vita boost pro so I went to buy some vitamax before my stint with AN.Every bottle was full of precipitates. It's actually a product AN actually got right for a time. That was a long time ago. I'm not at all big on grotek either.
Oh Yeah. Spidermite 90 signifies the amount of eggs a female can lay a day.
Oh Yeah. Spidermite 90 signifies the amount of eggs a female can lay a day.
Dicomaco
Member
Please don't stop the discussion, my head is sucking information like a dry mushroom in these threads, knowlegde trully is power, and that's probably why a scam company like AN are so rich.
Btw I use AN
B52
Grow Micro Bloom
Big Bud
OverDrive
Bud Candy
Final Phase
I'm very satisfied quality-wise, but i'm slowly starting to look for cheaper substitutes, since I've gotten tired of paying for fancy labels & crappy containers.
Can't say anything bad about their nutes though, it's just crazy overpriced :s
I've learned that cutting B52 usage to half of AN's recommendation reduces risk of nuteburn, makes zero difference in harvest + saves me $$.
I've also started to use much less Micro midway through flower, since it didn't make sense to me to feed them so much Micro as AN suggests, why would I want to give my plants a shit load of Nitrogen all up till the last week?
Their Nute programs kinda sucks, I wonder what else I could cut down on :S
Btw I use AN
B52
Grow Micro Bloom
Big Bud
OverDrive
Bud Candy
Final Phase
I'm very satisfied quality-wise, but i'm slowly starting to look for cheaper substitutes, since I've gotten tired of paying for fancy labels & crappy containers.
Can't say anything bad about their nutes though, it's just crazy overpriced :s
I've learned that cutting B52 usage to half of AN's recommendation reduces risk of nuteburn, makes zero difference in harvest + saves me $$.
I've also started to use much less Micro midway through flower, since it didn't make sense to me to feed them so much Micro as AN suggests, why would I want to give my plants a shit load of Nitrogen all up till the last week?
Their Nute programs kinda sucks, I wonder what else I could cut down on :S
This Jungle Juice thing smells fishy because only the percentages written on he label are the same as GH's Flora series not the real nute contents.
GH confirmed by email that they state percentages in w/w%, while AN customer service wrote they express NPK contents in w/v% on liquid fertilizers.
This means that AN's nute content is actually less then GH's by their specific gravities.
To get the the difference we have to know GH's specific gravities:
The overall difference is 49%.
AN Jungle Juice contains 49% less nutrients than GH 3 parts, even if the NPK is the same on their labels in case AN really list NPK in w/v% while GenHydro list theirs in w/w% as they stated in the emails.
To see both NPKs expressed in the same way (w/v%):
Jungle Juice 3 parts:
2-1-6 grow
5-0-4 micro
0-5-1 bloom
GH 3 parts:
2.22-1.11-6.66 grow (1.11)
6.15-0-4.92 micro (1.23)
0-5.75-1.15 bloom (1.15)
To get the final conclusion :
While AN states their product costs 40% less, it actually cost 9% more than GH 3 parts.
GH confirmed by email that they state percentages in w/w%, while AN customer service wrote they express NPK contents in w/v% on liquid fertilizers.
This means that AN's nute content is actually less then GH's by their specific gravities.
To get the the difference we have to know GH's specific gravities:
grow - 1.11
micro - 1.23
bloom - 1.15
(Specific gravities taken from cannastats)micro - 1.23
bloom - 1.15
The overall difference is 49%.
AN Jungle Juice contains 49% less nutrients than GH 3 parts, even if the NPK is the same on their labels in case AN really list NPK in w/v% while GenHydro list theirs in w/w% as they stated in the emails.
To see both NPKs expressed in the same way (w/v%):
Jungle Juice 3 parts:
2-1-6 grow
5-0-4 micro
0-5-1 bloom
GH 3 parts:
2.22-1.11-6.66 grow (1.11)
6.15-0-4.92 micro (1.23)
0-5.75-1.15 bloom (1.15)
To get the final conclusion :
While AN states their product costs 40% less, it actually cost 9% more than GH 3 parts.
D
djingo
I don´t like any of AN base nutrients,
as well as most of their additives.
a fertilizer like ghe 3 part covers most needs of the plant anyway.
I like Big Bud powder, F1-Humic, B52 & carboload (can not use molasses, drippers).
I do not mix too many of these additives, better rotate them and feed when needed.
peace,
Djingo
as well as most of their additives.
a fertilizer like ghe 3 part covers most needs of the plant anyway.
I like Big Bud powder, F1-Humic, B52 & carboload (can not use molasses, drippers).
I do not mix too many of these additives, better rotate them and feed when needed.
peace,
Djingo
