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Acid Rain-Can it be used with Hydro Nutes?
- Thread starter JOJO420
- Start date
Probably
I would contact your local municipal water company
Most water used to mix nutes is derived from a municipal water supply. They MAY start with (<7.5 pH) then intentionally add hardness minerals to neutralize the effects that acidic water would have on the miles of water pipes needed to deliver it to your faucet. Mine runs 8.0-8.2.
So you might find out which specific minerals your local municipal water supplier uses.
Exposure to acid rain over time (showers, laundry) would likely cause skin problems
I would contact your local municipal water company
Most water used to mix nutes is derived from a municipal water supply. They MAY start with (<7.5 pH) then intentionally add hardness minerals to neutralize the effects that acidic water would have on the miles of water pipes needed to deliver it to your faucet. Mine runs 8.0-8.2.
So you might find out which specific minerals your local municipal water supplier uses.
Exposure to acid rain over time (showers, laundry) would likely cause skin problems
Have you tried collecting rainwater at the end of heavy showers? Also it doesn't take much to lower the PH of clean water so perhaps the molarity of the acid isn't too high (sulphuric acid?) - you might be able to neutralize with a suitable base without adding a lot of useless ppm. Potash would be my first choice.
Don't know too much about water chemistry, but seems to me you need to raise the alkalinity of your water to raise the ph and keep it more stable, before adding in your nutes. I believe you want some calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate.
I know there are some folks around here that know quite a bit about water chemistry, so hopefully one of them will let you know what you need in more detail.
You should probably start though by sending off a sample to a water testing facility. I think JR Peters lab does it for $35 or something. Then you'll know exactly what you're dealing with. I believe JR Peters may even give you professional advise on how to adjust your water to make it appropriate. I'm not 100% sure on that though.
I know there are some folks around here that know quite a bit about water chemistry, so hopefully one of them will let you know what you need in more detail.
You should probably start though by sending off a sample to a water testing facility. I think JR Peters lab does it for $35 or something. Then you'll know exactly what you're dealing with. I believe JR Peters may even give you professional advise on how to adjust your water to make it appropriate. I'm not 100% sure on that though.
TheBioMaster
Member
You are filtering out all the buffers in the water that help to establish and "hold" the ph level. The total alkalinity (TA) number is important. Your 3 stage water filter plus carbon filter is what is removing all the buffers or TDS (total dissolved solids) in the water like calcium and magnesium for example.
You will need to add back all the minerals and trace minerals that make up these "buffers" to your water to make it stable again before you begin to add in your nutrients and additives.
You will need to get some Cal/Mag Plus or similar to add back trace minerals as well as carbonates.....these are the main components that help to establish and stabilize the ph levels.
Silica like Protek from Dyna-gro would also help to add back some stability in your water and raise the ph level...silica is beneficial to your plants in many ways and will increase plant growth and health....it is also a component in nutrient formulas that are usually lacking anyhow....
Sending in a water sample is not a bad idea at all as mentioned by Shafto and will be to your advantage for sure.
Bottom line is that your going to need to build a nutrient profile with your source water. There are several ways to go about that and which you choose should be determined by your experience level with nutrients and water chemistry.
A hard water formula like the General Hydroponics 3 part Flora series offers might be a better route to take and NOT filter out all the buffers.....
You will need to add back all the minerals and trace minerals that make up these "buffers" to your water to make it stable again before you begin to add in your nutrients and additives.
You will need to get some Cal/Mag Plus or similar to add back trace minerals as well as carbonates.....these are the main components that help to establish and stabilize the ph levels.
Silica like Protek from Dyna-gro would also help to add back some stability in your water and raise the ph level...silica is beneficial to your plants in many ways and will increase plant growth and health....it is also a component in nutrient formulas that are usually lacking anyhow....
Sending in a water sample is not a bad idea at all as mentioned by Shafto and will be to your advantage for sure.
Bottom line is that your going to need to build a nutrient profile with your source water. There are several ways to go about that and which you choose should be determined by your experience level with nutrients and water chemistry.
A hard water formula like the General Hydroponics 3 part Flora series offers might be a better route to take and NOT filter out all the buffers.....
Okay what is your roof made out of and are you waiting a day before adding your nutes you need to wait.. Chances are if you have a wooden roof that is already acidic. You need to wait 24 hours before adding nute and try to bring your water up to 7 as it drops a point. Also you need to do a TDS Total Disolve Solids test swimming pool companies have this you need to see if this is right,, Also Galvinized steel might be the problem from your roof , When you add your nutes all at once you get weird reading aswell..Headband 707
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TheBioMaster
Member
What exactly does he need to wait for? Never heard that with rain water collection before.
Have heard of this with tap to wait for the chlorine to dissipate.
Waiting for any amount of time will not put back the trace minerals and carbonates that he is filtering out of the water with his multi stage water filter.
The roof and the materials it is made up of could be affecting your collection but it is doubtful and since your filtering the water anyhow with your multiple stage filter it should not matter anyhow.
It is however best if you can collect directly from something like putting down plastic or similar on your roof that will lead to your collection container.
Cheers!
Have heard of this with tap to wait for the chlorine to dissipate.
Waiting for any amount of time will not put back the trace minerals and carbonates that he is filtering out of the water with his multi stage water filter.
The roof and the materials it is made up of could be affecting your collection but it is doubtful and since your filtering the water anyhow with your multiple stage filter it should not matter anyhow.
It is however best if you can collect directly from something like putting down plastic or similar on your roof that will lead to your collection container.
Cheers!
I highly doubt he is filtering anything but particulates out of the collected water. It has basically no buffering because it is distilled water that falls to the earth, becoming acidic because of the volcanic dust and such in the air it is falling through.
He needs to neutralize this acidity with a base, finely ground calcium carbonate prferably.
My suggestion to him is to get an Alkalinity test kit and add enough fine calcium carbonate to the water before use to reach 40-65 ppm CaCo3 equivelant. Which should be about 0.25 grams fine Calcium Carbonate per gallon of water. Or about 5.5 pounds fine calium carbonate per 10,000 gallon tank.
This will add about 10ppm elemental calcium to the water which should be included in the nutrient formulation process.
Cal-Mag plus does not contain any carbonates.FYI
What exactly does he need to wait for? Never heard that with rain water collection before.
Have heard of this with tap to wait for the chlorine to dissipate.
Waiting for any amount of time will not put back the trace minerals and carbonates that he is filtering out of the water with his multi stage water filter.
The roof and the materials it is made up of could be affecting your collection but it is doubtful and since your filtering the water anyhow with your multiple stage filter it should not matter anyhow.
It is however best if you can collect directly from something like putting down plastic or similar on your roof that will lead to your collection container.
Cheers
We don't use the municipal water supply. we catch rainwater. There is no county water supply to the house where I live.
The way my system is set up, we catch ALL rainwater from the roof of the house. The gutters all run to the big tank. I have no way of separating the beginning or end of showers.
the water is 4.8-5.2, so wee need to raise pH not lower it.
Me either, but this is my first instinct also. I know that just one drop of pH up will make it more alkaline. I feel I need to make my water above 7 pH FIRST, not after I add nutes.
Excellent idea. I found a couple labs today in town, and the University does it also. So this will be done pronto. I will post results.
This is exactly what I was afraid of.Thank you for explaining it so matter of factually.
I have MagiCal from Technaflora.Will this do it?
Do I add this AND calmag?Or do I just use silica.I like the idea of silicates to up pH, plus the added benefits
Can you give me some ideas? I understand everything that everyone has said in this tread so far. I get the fact that I have to build my water. I'm looking for ideas
I thought of this. Thought of buying a tank and catching pure rainwater, bypass the filter and use hardwater micro for my 6/9 rezipie.
The roof is made of metal roofing. Its not rusty, and has no holes. The tank is so damn big that i have no idea how old the water is.
The only thing I can think of is we have birds(doves) that nest in the peak of the roof. They fly and walk all over the roof. Maybe its the bird shit and piss?? Maybe the rainwater washes all the bird mess into the tank and that is somehow messing things up? I don't know. I'm clueless and going broke with all these sick plants.
Why? the water is sitting in the tank for months, weeks. Are you saying fill the buckets from the tank and let them sit out overnight?
I have a digital PPM stick. It reads 25 PPM after filtering.
I do not see how we would be able to cover my roof. Its a 2 story, with steep angles. The wind would blow the plastic away anyway. The only option here is to drive 12 miles round trip to the water station and fill 5 gallon buckets. We are doing this currently till I figure out the problem. We have a couple brand new 55 gallon trash cans that we fill up with buckets.
Thank you!! This is spot on. Great advice here.
Good idea brah!! I can do this. I have AG-65 Dolomite lime. I can put that in the trash can, let it sit 24 hours and then add nutrients. My question is will the dolomite lime affect the nutes? I plan on using Maxibloom and GH Flora.
Thank you everyone that has replied. I feel we are on the way to fixing this most troublesome problem. Keep the ideas flowing
TheBioMaster
Member
Cal/Mag Plus by Botanicare was reversed engineered by Chris at Hydroponic-Research (and several other companies as well) and it does FOR SURE indeed contain carbonates in it......FYI
Looks like you have things under control.....we have been doing research from water sources all over the planet for the past 28 years and we specialize in rain water collection as part of a sustainable program we developed over the years. If you get stuck and can not find a solution please let me know as I would be glad to help.
Also have a plethora of information on how to use rain water with NO plant nutrients at all or either light supplementation with plant nutrients. Using this product you can make yourself for NOTHING as in ZERO cost to you accept for a small portion of your time.....or purchase it. This method uses what is called "Bio-Char" and it takes organic water culture to another level!!
Also have several options and methods for water treatment that have been tried and tested for about 8 years now.....if you ever want to go the next step in water treatment to up your game please let me know that as well....have worked with several technologies.
And yes you are defiantly filtering out particulates as that is one of the functions of what the filters do, they come in different micron sizes even.....not sure where headband is getting his information from but it is not accurate.......unfortunately there are LOTS of myths and bad habits to help detour your path to success, and as far as public forums go, the so called "Pro's" are sometimes, not always, the biggest offenders!! Hard to change a bad habit when the habit does not directly KILL the plant....LOL!!!
I would strongly suggest that you get a good book on plant biology and nutrition or turn to a classroom for your information as opposed to "Google" searches and public platforms, if your really serious about learning proper horticulture methods and how to apply the methods correctly......that is for sure the BEST advice you will ever get!! And the books you get should NOT be written by Jorge, a man who wears fake wig.....or the guy that dresses up with green paint all over his skin....LOL
You would not need to cover your entire roof with plastic...DOH!! Not what I meant at all....you would take a small area of the roof close to your collection point. This channels the water into the collection container and keeps the water from touching the roof materials....have installed this type of modification hundreds of times over the years and it works very well, is cheap and easy to do......several ways to do this, and I even saw one install that used a large shallow plastic tray placed on the roof near the collection point and ran a small hose from the bottom corner of the plastic tray secured to the roof that drains off into your collection point. Easy and cheap and 100% effective in keeping your collection water from ever touching the roof!
Cheers & Good Luck!
Looks like you have things under control.....we have been doing research from water sources all over the planet for the past 28 years and we specialize in rain water collection as part of a sustainable program we developed over the years. If you get stuck and can not find a solution please let me know as I would be glad to help.
Also have a plethora of information on how to use rain water with NO plant nutrients at all or either light supplementation with plant nutrients. Using this product you can make yourself for NOTHING as in ZERO cost to you accept for a small portion of your time.....or purchase it. This method uses what is called "Bio-Char" and it takes organic water culture to another level!!
Also have several options and methods for water treatment that have been tried and tested for about 8 years now.....if you ever want to go the next step in water treatment to up your game please let me know that as well....have worked with several technologies.
And yes you are defiantly filtering out particulates as that is one of the functions of what the filters do, they come in different micron sizes even.....not sure where headband is getting his information from but it is not accurate.......unfortunately there are LOTS of myths and bad habits to help detour your path to success, and as far as public forums go, the so called "Pro's" are sometimes, not always, the biggest offenders!! Hard to change a bad habit when the habit does not directly KILL the plant....LOL!!!
I would strongly suggest that you get a good book on plant biology and nutrition or turn to a classroom for your information as opposed to "Google" searches and public platforms, if your really serious about learning proper horticulture methods and how to apply the methods correctly......that is for sure the BEST advice you will ever get!! And the books you get should NOT be written by Jorge, a man who wears fake wig.....or the guy that dresses up with green paint all over his skin....LOL
You would not need to cover your entire roof with plastic...DOH!! Not what I meant at all....you would take a small area of the roof close to your collection point. This channels the water into the collection container and keeps the water from touching the roof materials....have installed this type of modification hundreds of times over the years and it works very well, is cheap and easy to do......several ways to do this, and I even saw one install that used a large shallow plastic tray placed on the roof near the collection point and ran a small hose from the bottom corner of the plastic tray secured to the roof that drains off into your collection point. Easy and cheap and 100% effective in keeping your collection water from ever touching the roof!
Cheers & Good Luck!
We don't use the municipal water supply. we catch rainwater. There is no county water supply to the house where I live.
The way my system is set up, we catch ALL rainwater from the roof of the house. The gutters all run to the big tank. I have no way of separating the beginning or end of showers.
the water is 4.8-5.2, so wee need to raise pH not lower it.
Me either, but this is my first instinct also. I know that just one drop of pH up will make it more alkaline. I feel I need to make my water above 7 pH FIRST, not after I add nutes.
Excellent idea. I found a couple labs today in town, and the University does it also. So this will be done pronto. I will post results.
This is exactly what I was afraid of.Thank you for explaining it so matter of factually.
I have MagiCal from Technaflora.Will this do it?
Do I add this AND calmag?Or do I just use silica.I like the idea of silicates to up pH, plus the added benefits
Can you give me some ideas? I understand everything that everyone has said in this tread so far. I get the fact that I have to build my water. I'm looking for ideas
I thought of this. Thought of buying a tank and catching pure rainwater, bypass the filter and use hardwater micro for my 6/9 rezipie.
The roof is made of metal roofing. Its not rusty, and has no holes. The tank is so damn big that i have no idea how old the water is.
The only thing I can think of is we have birds(doves) that nest in the peak of the roof. They fly and walk all over the roof. Maybe its the bird shit and piss?? Maybe the rainwater washes all the bird mess into the tank and that is somehow messing things up? I don't know. I'm clueless and going broke with all these sick plants.
Why? the water is sitting in the tank for months, weeks. Are you saying fill the buckets from the tank and let them sit out overnight?
I have a digital PPM stick. It reads 25 PPM after filtering.
I do not see how we would be able to cover my roof. Its a 2 story, with steep angles. The wind would blow the plastic away anyway. The only option here is to drive 12 miles round trip to the water station and fill 5 gallon buckets. We are doing this currently till I figure out the problem. We have a couple brand new 55 gallon trash cans that we fill up with buckets.
Thank you!! This is spot on. Great advice here.
Good idea brah!! I can do this. I have AG-65 Dolomite lime. I can put that in the trash can, let it sit 24 hours and then add nutrients. My question is will the dolomite lime affect the nutes? I plan on using Maxibloom and GH Flora.
Thank you everyone that has replied. I feel we are on the way to fixing this most troublesome problem. Keep the ideas flowing
You can use whatever you got to bring your water to 7 and then wait 24 hours then take your readings again good luck with this... I might take a look at how everything was set up and see if you can see any nails in your set up (Galvinized) this will change things for you aswell.
As far as I know they shouldn't have done this but you never know..Did the person before you use this setup successfully? Headband 707
S
SeaMaiden
You're correct. I've explained this to him and told him how to go about correcting the situation, too.
Done.
An option I didn't give! I'm too accustomed to testing water myself.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=5248679&postcount=4
Testing
Testing
So today I ran a bunch of tests.
Test #1
Took 4 gallons of water from the filtered tank,it read 17 PPM and 4.8pH. I then added .25 grams per gallon of Calc Carb, stirred it up and took a reading, no change.
Not to pH or to PPM.
Test #2
Took 4 gallons from the county well 6 miles away. It read 70 PPM and 7.8 pH. Added.25 grams per gallon of Calc Carb. Got a reading of 80 PPM and 8.8 pH.
I added 10 PPM of Calcium Carbonate and raised the pH 1 point.
Test #3
Took 4 gallons from the filtered tank. It read 4.8pH and 17 PPM Added .25 grams per gallon of Calc Carb and .25 grams per gallon of AG-65 Dolomite lime. The pH went to 12.1 and PPM were 150.
I added 150 PPM of Dolomite and raised the pH 7.3 points.
These test were on plain water to see what would happen when I added calcium carbonate and dolomite lime to my water as suggested. By doing these test it confirmed that my water structure, after filtering is shot.
So I did some more tests
Test #4
I took the water from test #1 and added double the amount of Calc Carb recommended. The pH went to 6.0
I might be able to use this water for watering only, because if I add any ferts to this water the pH drops too low to use.
Test #5
This was the test that gave me the best results.
I took the water from Test #2, the water from the well 6 miles away.
I made 3 seperate buckets of 4 gallons each. I added .25 grams of Calc Carb per gallon for 1 gram total. I stirred this up and went and smoked a joint
Came back and to bucket #1 I added 10ml per gallon of Pure Blend Pro Bloom for soil and coco, 40ml total. I stirred this up and took a reading. pH 5.9 and 810 PPM. Almost perfect
To bucket #2 I added .25 grams per gallon of Calc Carb. Waited a couple minutes and added 1/2 tsp per gallon of MaxiBloom, 2 tsp total. Stirred it up and took a reading. 5.9 pH and 650 PPM.. Right on target, I use this for small seedlings and clones.
For Bucket #3. I added .25 grams per gallon Calc Carb and added GH Flora Micro and Bloom, using the 6/9 rezipie.
Stirred it up, took a reading and BINGO 5.9 pH.
I could not be happier with these results.
Finally I see light at the end of the tunnel.
The final test spoke volumes about my water supply, as I now see its been my problem from day 1
Test #6
Took the water that was from the filtered tank, added Calc Carb and dolomite. pH was 12.1
Added maxibloom to one bucket and GH flora to the other.
Both buckets pH swung down into the low 4's all the way from 12.1
Had to add alot of pH up to get it into acceptable range. Im not sure if I even believe the reading.
So long story short, My tank water does the same thing it was doing before, the addition of Calc Carb, AND dolomite did nothing.
I get the same results no matter what I do if I use the water from our tank.
Simple answer is I'm gonna stop using my tank water and go with he well water and Calc Carb.
Can anyone explain furthur to to me what might be happening? Why does this water show no effect from the addition of Calc Carb?
Why does the ph still swing low even with Calc carb and dolomite?
Testing
So today I ran a bunch of tests.
Test #1
Took 4 gallons of water from the filtered tank,it read 17 PPM and 4.8pH. I then added .25 grams per gallon of Calc Carb, stirred it up and took a reading, no change.
Not to pH or to PPM.
Test #2
Took 4 gallons from the county well 6 miles away. It read 70 PPM and 7.8 pH. Added.25 grams per gallon of Calc Carb. Got a reading of 80 PPM and 8.8 pH.
I added 10 PPM of Calcium Carbonate and raised the pH 1 point.
Test #3
Took 4 gallons from the filtered tank. It read 4.8pH and 17 PPM Added .25 grams per gallon of Calc Carb and .25 grams per gallon of AG-65 Dolomite lime. The pH went to 12.1 and PPM were 150.
I added 150 PPM of Dolomite and raised the pH 7.3 points.
These test were on plain water to see what would happen when I added calcium carbonate and dolomite lime to my water as suggested. By doing these test it confirmed that my water structure, after filtering is shot.
So I did some more tests
Test #4
I took the water from test #1 and added double the amount of Calc Carb recommended. The pH went to 6.0
I might be able to use this water for watering only, because if I add any ferts to this water the pH drops too low to use.
Test #5
This was the test that gave me the best results.
I took the water from Test #2, the water from the well 6 miles away.
I made 3 seperate buckets of 4 gallons each. I added .25 grams of Calc Carb per gallon for 1 gram total. I stirred this up and went and smoked a joint
Came back and to bucket #1 I added 10ml per gallon of Pure Blend Pro Bloom for soil and coco, 40ml total. I stirred this up and took a reading. pH 5.9 and 810 PPM. Almost perfect
To bucket #2 I added .25 grams per gallon of Calc Carb. Waited a couple minutes and added 1/2 tsp per gallon of MaxiBloom, 2 tsp total. Stirred it up and took a reading. 5.9 pH and 650 PPM.. Right on target, I use this for small seedlings and clones.
For Bucket #3. I added .25 grams per gallon Calc Carb and added GH Flora Micro and Bloom, using the 6/9 rezipie.
Stirred it up, took a reading and BINGO 5.9 pH.
I could not be happier with these results.
Finally I see light at the end of the tunnel.
The final test spoke volumes about my water supply, as I now see its been my problem from day 1
Test #6
Took the water that was from the filtered tank, added Calc Carb and dolomite. pH was 12.1
Added maxibloom to one bucket and GH flora to the other.
Both buckets pH swung down into the low 4's all the way from 12.1
Had to add alot of pH up to get it into acceptable range. Im not sure if I even believe the reading.
So long story short, My tank water does the same thing it was doing before, the addition of Calc Carb, AND dolomite did nothing.
I get the same results no matter what I do if I use the water from our tank.
Simple answer is I'm gonna stop using my tank water and go with he well water and Calc Carb.
Can anyone explain furthur to to me what might be happening? Why does this water show no effect from the addition of Calc Carb?
Why does the ph still swing low even with Calc carb and dolomite?
Maybe your water is buffered very acidically with organic acids not read by the PPM meter? Like I said earlier, no water chemist, but if it's buffered lots on the acidic side, then you should do as suggested earlier, and try soaking the water with crushed coral or something of the sort, leave it for a while and let it neutralize.
Most people are buffered high PH with lots of carbonates and it takes them a while to come down. That's why people often see their PH rising so much, it's buffered that way and take a while to get it down. You're the opposite, you need to raise your PH over the acidic buffer. Keep adding calcium carbonate until it goes up and stays up (insert one liner), it might take 3 days to get it stable. Or just let it soak with a calcium source, it'll naturally pull it out. Once you stabilize the water around 6.5-7.0 you'll be golden.
When I add maxibloom, my PH goes too low too, that's why I add about 2/3 - 3/4 of the dose at once, PH goes to about 5.0-5.1 from 6.9-7.0, then the next day 24 hours later it's at 5.7, because the buffers bright it back up, then I pour in the rest and it goes to about 5.4PH and then slowly drifts up to 5.9-6.0 over 5-6 days.
Most people are buffered high PH with lots of carbonates and it takes them a while to come down. That's why people often see their PH rising so much, it's buffered that way and take a while to get it down. You're the opposite, you need to raise your PH over the acidic buffer. Keep adding calcium carbonate until it goes up and stays up (insert one liner), it might take 3 days to get it stable. Or just let it soak with a calcium source, it'll naturally pull it out. Once you stabilize the water around 6.5-7.0 you'll be golden.
When I add maxibloom, my PH goes too low too, that's why I add about 2/3 - 3/4 of the dose at once, PH goes to about 5.0-5.1 from 6.9-7.0, then the next day 24 hours later it's at 5.7, because the buffers bright it back up, then I pour in the rest and it goes to about 5.4PH and then slowly drifts up to 5.9-6.0 over 5-6 days.
This seems to be the consensus. I bought Calc Carb. Am using it at .25 grams per gallon as recommended. Only change is I am now using a different water source.
If I add the Calc Carb first, then my nutes. pH goes to acceptable range without using pH up or down.
Now its getting the grow medium pH corrected. Here is a link i found about that subject.
http://extension.unh.edu/agric/AGGHFL/pHarticl.pdf
