made a lot of sense to sticky this, great suggestion GrayWolf!
-
ICMag with help from Landrace Warden and The Vault is running a NEW contest in November! You can check it here. Prizes are seeds & forum premium access. Come join in!
Absolute Amber from Banana Silver Ladyboys
- Thread starter jump117
- Start date
Just from all my dirty dishes and jars, nothing goes to waste!
Flying High
Member
What an amazing thread; I'm glad to see this stickied.
For those of us in states where 190 proof is prohibited, it seems like winechateau.com will sell and ship bottles and/or cases of Everclear. I just ordered some to an address in NorCal...
I'm sure other online suppliers exist, this was just one of the first that popped up in a google search. Yes, it works out to around $75/gallon; but if you need it, you need it...
For those of us in states where 190 proof is prohibited, it seems like winechateau.com will sell and ship bottles and/or cases of Everclear. I just ordered some to an address in NorCal...
I'm sure other online suppliers exist, this was just one of the first that popped up in a google search. Yes, it works out to around $75/gallon; but if you need it, you need it...
Whats up team? Hope everyone is enjoying their high grade extractions, I know I am. However, I have come to seek advice, and Im really hoping with all these good minds, some problem solving could very well take place. Here is my issue:
My extraction is staying too oily, and isn't "hardening"! (It smells, tastes, and looks the same tho.)
I have been making AA for a decent amount of time, and after I got done tweaking and experimenting, my results have stayed VERY consistent for the past 6 months. Im pretty good at controlling my (known) variables and my procedure stays almost exactly the same, yet suddenly, my results are staying softer. (its not from the summer heat either. I have a batch of AA from 2 months ago that is a rock, and a batch from 1 month ago that is oil still)
This is driving me nuts! Im about to clean ALL my equipment and start over, but I would love some input.
Here are some factors to consider just to help the problem solving:
-Ive been working on the same batch of trim for a while, so my material has been the same strain and batch the whole time
-During my winterizing, I now keep my jar closed (my ice started tasting like booze, ha). Doesn't seem like that should be a factor tho.
-And MAYBE Im using less alcohol? the more I made, the more I realized I needed just enough ethanol to dissolve the bho, where at 1st, maybe I was using double the amount. Just seemed like more to evaporate for no reason so I tried to cut it back.
I think that is all I can think of. It just doesnt make sense why my consistency is becoming softer. Maybe a variable I havent considered, or maybe someone else who's experienced this has some insight.
My extraction is staying too oily, and isn't "hardening"! (It smells, tastes, and looks the same tho.)
I have been making AA for a decent amount of time, and after I got done tweaking and experimenting, my results have stayed VERY consistent for the past 6 months. Im pretty good at controlling my (known) variables and my procedure stays almost exactly the same, yet suddenly, my results are staying softer. (its not from the summer heat either. I have a batch of AA from 2 months ago that is a rock, and a batch from 1 month ago that is oil still)
This is driving me nuts! Im about to clean ALL my equipment and start over, but I would love some input.
Here are some factors to consider just to help the problem solving:
-Ive been working on the same batch of trim for a while, so my material has been the same strain and batch the whole time
-During my winterizing, I now keep my jar closed (my ice started tasting like booze, ha). Doesn't seem like that should be a factor tho.
-And MAYBE Im using less alcohol? the more I made, the more I realized I needed just enough ethanol to dissolve the bho, where at 1st, maybe I was using double the amount. Just seemed like more to evaporate for no reason so I tried to cut it back.
I think that is all I can think of. It just doesnt make sense why my consistency is becoming softer. Maybe a variable I havent considered, or maybe someone else who's experienced this has some insight.
You say you have been working on the same batch of trim for while and it used to produce hard oil, but no longer will?
This is probably happening because your trim is naturally decarboxylating the longer it sits. I have extracted from material about two or so years old and my AA was very very goeeey and dark colored. Are you keeping your trim in a air tight, cool dark place? If not decarboxylation will happen at quicker rate resulting in darker less stable AA.
How much are you purging at a time per pyrex? Low surface area will keep oil from hardening up easily.
This is probably happening because your trim is naturally decarboxylating the longer it sits. I have extracted from material about two or so years old and my AA was very very goeeey and dark colored. Are you keeping your trim in a air tight, cool dark place? If not decarboxylation will happen at quicker rate resulting in darker less stable AA.
How much are you purging at a time per pyrex? Low surface area will keep oil from hardening up easily.
B
B. Self Reliant
I think this particular variable is responsible for more traits in the final product than most people give credit for. The consistency being one of the big traits of the final products that's affected.
Midwest- Sadly I dunno if your speculation about the trim decarbing is the case, although it is a good reason I should hurry up and process the rest of my stuff! BUT the thing is, this box of trim (which is just trim in brown bags in the box, not air tight but in my cool dark basement) is already easily 6-12mo old, and I've been running it all winter and summer, like every other week, and this change has only just just begun. its consistency seemed like it changed over night. it always produced solid AA, then all of the sudden, sticky oil, no degradation into softer and softer states. I did change a few of the variables as mentioned above tho (and maybe others I havent realized?). Another thing is, it also occurred with a different strain that I recently ran. Infact, it STARTED with the new strain, and I just figured that it was a strain specific anomaly, 1st run I EVER winterized that didnt harden up. Also 1st time running the new strain, so I just assumed that one strain just didnt turn into AA (which really surprised me cause Ive even turned reclaim into amber). I didnt start bugging out about it until I went back to my big stash of the same ole trim and when IT stayed oily too, I really got confused, and now it is reeeeally a splinter in my mind cause I don't know what changed besides the couple variables mentioned above. My methods are usually super consistent tho. I like your input and We can't rule out that possibility, but my hunch is that there is still something else.....
Midwest and B. Self - SO I hate to be seem resistant to this factor, but I also don't see this as being a big issue or part of the equation. the reason why is because I have had 1st hand experience with all the BS of dealing with how this stuff evaporates and how much of a pain in the ass it is to do any sort of quantity,lol. Infact I even dwelled on it so much that THAT was my problem that turned me from a silent reader into a (mildly) active participant in this thread. I dont say much, someone usually beats me to the punch, lol. But you can see my debut on this forum presenting my problem on page 33 of this thread, posts 482 and 483. I go into a little detail so insight on THAT would be welcomed if there was any breaking news there too, lol. To answer your question, My last batch was roughly 10-12 grams of finished product. With my method explained on p33, any time I have an issue evap'ing of the alcohol in open air, the vac method has been just as consistent as anything else in this whole control of variables. So it worked fine finishing off a 12g batch a month ago. So again, I appreciate that as a consideration, but I still think there is something else effecting my results.
Also I may have misunderstood when you ask how much Im purging at a time. Do you mean of grams of oil or of oil/alc solution? Becuase as I mentioned, the amount of alc I use has decreased. I used to dissolve the bho in roughly a cup of alc in the pyrex, but recently I started using just enough to dissolve the oil, maybe a 1/4 cup. I considered using more alc, figured it'd thin out the solution to help it distribute more evenly in the pan, but havent tried to do it with more cause it seems redundant. for example, if its consistency is "syrupy" with, a 1/4 cup of alc, and its "watery" with a 1 cup of alc, after it started to evaporate, and was back down to 1/4 cup of alc, wouldnt it be the same consistency then as it woulda been if you just never added the extra alcohol? Like your just adding unnecessary time to your evaporation process. Correct me if Im wrong, that is how it seems like it would work in my mind tho.
Midwest and B. Self - SO I hate to be seem resistant to this factor, but I also don't see this as being a big issue or part of the equation. the reason why is because I have had 1st hand experience with all the BS of dealing with how this stuff evaporates and how much of a pain in the ass it is to do any sort of quantity,lol. Infact I even dwelled on it so much that THAT was my problem that turned me from a silent reader into a (mildly) active participant in this thread. I dont say much, someone usually beats me to the punch, lol. But you can see my debut on this forum presenting my problem on page 33 of this thread, posts 482 and 483. I go into a little detail so insight on THAT would be welcomed if there was any breaking news there too, lol. To answer your question, My last batch was roughly 10-12 grams of finished product. With my method explained on p33, any time I have an issue evap'ing of the alcohol in open air, the vac method has been just as consistent as anything else in this whole control of variables. So it worked fine finishing off a 12g batch a month ago. So again, I appreciate that as a consideration, but I still think there is something else effecting my results.
Also I may have misunderstood when you ask how much Im purging at a time. Do you mean of grams of oil or of oil/alc solution? Becuase as I mentioned, the amount of alc I use has decreased. I used to dissolve the bho in roughly a cup of alc in the pyrex, but recently I started using just enough to dissolve the oil, maybe a 1/4 cup. I considered using more alc, figured it'd thin out the solution to help it distribute more evenly in the pan, but havent tried to do it with more cause it seems redundant. for example, if its consistency is "syrupy" with, a 1/4 cup of alc, and its "watery" with a 1 cup of alc, after it started to evaporate, and was back down to 1/4 cup of alc, wouldnt it be the same consistency then as it woulda been if you just never added the extra alcohol? Like your just adding unnecessary time to your evaporation process. Correct me if Im wrong, that is how it seems like it would work in my mind tho.
If its 6-12 months old, then yes partial decarboxylation of your material would more than likely be contributing, keeping it in paper bags in a box instead of turkey bags for that long confirms my suspicions. Try running material thats only a week old, I gurantee you'll get some glassy mc glass. Also surface area, even under vacuum plays a big roll in a proper purge.
I meant grams of oil when I said how much are you purging at a time.
I doubt its strain specific, you should be able to get AA shatter from any strain as long as its fresh material. Almost all cannabinoids in fresh cannabis are in their non-active acid form, fresh material with cannabinoids in their acidic form will easily produce a glassy hard stable oil compared to material high in activated cannabinoids. Which will give you darker less stable oil.
I meant grams of oil when I said how much are you purging at a time.
I doubt its strain specific, you should be able to get AA shatter from any strain as long as its fresh material. Almost all cannabinoids in fresh cannabis are in their non-active acid form, fresh material with cannabinoids in their acidic form will easily produce a glassy hard stable oil compared to material high in activated cannabinoids. Which will give you darker less stable oil.
Ethanol Ratio?
Ethanol Ratio?
Thank you so much to all the people that have made this thread what it is. I've been searching through trying to find a measured ratio of ethanol, but I'm just not having any luck. Was hoping someone that was well informed could tell me how much ethanol in mL I would want to use with say 10 grams of fresh frozen flowers. Would 20 grams be any different than double the amount for 10? Thanks again for more than I can list here!
Ethanol Ratio?
Thank you so much to all the people that have made this thread what it is. I've been searching through trying to find a measured ratio of ethanol, but I'm just not having any luck. Was hoping someone that was well informed could tell me how much ethanol in mL I would want to use with say 10 grams of fresh frozen flowers. Would 20 grams be any different than double the amount for 10? Thanks again for more than I can list here!
Thank you so much to all the people that have made this thread what it is. I've been searching through trying to find a measured ratio of ethanol, but I'm just not having any luck. Was hoping someone that was well informed could tell me how much ethanol in mL I would want to use with say 10 grams of fresh frozen flowers. Would 20 grams be any different than double the amount for 10? Thanks again for more than I can list here!
Yo Terp, are you asking for a quickwash on raw plant matter? If so, I believe you need just enough to cover your plant matter, which can change depending on your container. A pint glass may require less alc than a pan or bowl because you get more vertical depth for the same amount of liquid, so that is a variable to consider. Someone feel free to chime in, because I dont have tons of experience with QwEt, but Im under the impression that if you add excess Alcohol, it is just more work to evaporate off. So I think as long as your material is fully submerged, you will get your desired results without wasting alcohol or evap. time.
ok, and now for another lengthy post, sorry guys, Im not good with brevity. must be the hash, lol. ok here it is.
Thanks again for continuing to help me trouble shoot. So to play devil's advocate (even tho I do plan to change my storage method, lol), here is why I still don't think the trim decarbing is the variable that has changed my results, (all these things I already mentioned, but am happy to reiterate for those who didnt read my preceding posts). 1st: as mentioned, there was no slow gradual change from harder to softer as the trim got older, during which time the decarb process continued to advance further; it just changed one day. Doesn't it seem logical that consistency of the extract ought to slowly and continually change along with the slow change occurring in the trim? Thats not the case tho, it went from AA 1 run, to oil the next run, no in between. 2nd: you doubt its a strain specific issue, which I agree with, because I already mentioned that it happened with another strain as well. But the kicker is that the other strain isn't old at all, maybe 2 weeks, tops. So Im getting results that conflict with your theory. You say Its from the trim getting old and decarbing, yet I have done it with fresh (dry) new trim and still got the soft oil. And 3rd: I have made AA with 3 year old trim, and it worked out fine, it snaps in half just as good as anything I've ever made (before this month of coarse, haha) AAND just to throw a wrench into the mix, I've made AA from reclaim successfully 1st hand. I and Im pretty darn sure if oil has been dropped on a red hot nail, then it got decarb'd. and if that is the case, then I've for sure successfully made AA from decarboxylated oil. I still have some even if you need a pic, lol. So there are 3 things that, to me, disprove that as the reason for why my change in results has occurred. I still wont rule it out, but logic and reasoning are forcing me to put that theory on the back burner.
Also you mentioned the surface area, even in a vacuum. I dunno if you got a chance to skim back to p33 where I posted a long one about my own "surface area" trouble shooting, But I am 95% sure I have that variable under control. However, in the spirit of keeping an open mind and not ruling anything out, I will do an experiment now. I will report back in a day or 2. Let me know if it seems like a sound and thorough way to rule out the "surface area factor". Here is what Im gonna do:
Ok lets 1st assume that if I DID have evaporation issues, its probably from trying to purge off too much at once. We all agree that small batches evap much better. So if that is the case, then I could take just a small amount of my oily "AA", roughly 1-2gs, and re-dissolve it in just like an oz or 2 of ethanol. I then will dump that into a fresh pyrex and evaporate it away. With only a gram or 2 of oil in there, it really shouldn't have any issues evaporating away, right? Ok well that is done and sitting in a pyrex. If tomo or the next day, I can scrape it up and I have AA, then problem solved. If however, after a few days, once scrapped, it is still soft and oily, then we can put the evap/purge theory to rest too. At the risk of redundancy, I will repeat myself again to say I really havent had any issues with my purge for ages, and even then, it was only on the suuuper big batches (which even the big batches I have successfully dialed in to my satisfaction), so I highly doubt my "pilot error" is in the purge department. I will report back my results as soon as my my pyrex evaporates sufficiently. based on my previous experiences tho, Im not expecting to find anything exceptional from this experiment because I have already gone thru the trials and tribulations of figuring out the problems with purging too much at once, and have already made adjustments accordingly. I can still accept that some how, maybe I did mess something up in the purge, but my honest hunch is that the main benefit of this test is that it will definitively rule out the purging as an issue in question.
Never the less, I appreciate the input all the same! If nothing else, it is forcing me to go back thru every step to rule out and put to rest the possibilities that are NOT effecting my results.
Thanks again for continuing to help me trouble shoot. So to play devil's advocate (even tho I do plan to change my storage method, lol), here is why I still don't think the trim decarbing is the variable that has changed my results, (all these things I already mentioned, but am happy to reiterate for those who didnt read my preceding posts). 1st: as mentioned, there was no slow gradual change from harder to softer as the trim got older, during which time the decarb process continued to advance further; it just changed one day. Doesn't it seem logical that consistency of the extract ought to slowly and continually change along with the slow change occurring in the trim? Thats not the case tho, it went from AA 1 run, to oil the next run, no in between. 2nd: you doubt its a strain specific issue, which I agree with, because I already mentioned that it happened with another strain as well. But the kicker is that the other strain isn't old at all, maybe 2 weeks, tops. So Im getting results that conflict with your theory. You say Its from the trim getting old and decarbing, yet I have done it with fresh (dry) new trim and still got the soft oil. And 3rd: I have made AA with 3 year old trim, and it worked out fine, it snaps in half just as good as anything I've ever made (before this month of coarse, haha) AAND just to throw a wrench into the mix, I've made AA from reclaim successfully 1st hand. I and Im pretty darn sure if oil has been dropped on a red hot nail, then it got decarb'd. and if that is the case, then I've for sure successfully made AA from decarboxylated oil. I still have some even if you need a pic, lol. So there are 3 things that, to me, disprove that as the reason for why my change in results has occurred. I still wont rule it out, but logic and reasoning are forcing me to put that theory on the back burner.
Also you mentioned the surface area, even in a vacuum. I dunno if you got a chance to skim back to p33 where I posted a long one about my own "surface area" trouble shooting, But I am 95% sure I have that variable under control. However, in the spirit of keeping an open mind and not ruling anything out, I will do an experiment now. I will report back in a day or 2. Let me know if it seems like a sound and thorough way to rule out the "surface area factor". Here is what Im gonna do:
Ok lets 1st assume that if I DID have evaporation issues, its probably from trying to purge off too much at once. We all agree that small batches evap much better. So if that is the case, then I could take just a small amount of my oily "AA", roughly 1-2gs, and re-dissolve it in just like an oz or 2 of ethanol. I then will dump that into a fresh pyrex and evaporate it away. With only a gram or 2 of oil in there, it really shouldn't have any issues evaporating away, right? Ok well that is done and sitting in a pyrex. If tomo or the next day, I can scrape it up and I have AA, then problem solved. If however, after a few days, once scrapped, it is still soft and oily, then we can put the evap/purge theory to rest too. At the risk of redundancy, I will repeat myself again to say I really havent had any issues with my purge for ages, and even then, it was only on the suuuper big batches (which even the big batches I have successfully dialed in to my satisfaction), so I highly doubt my "pilot error" is in the purge department. I will report back my results as soon as my my pyrex evaporates sufficiently. based on my previous experiences tho, Im not expecting to find anything exceptional from this experiment because I have already gone thru the trials and tribulations of figuring out the problems with purging too much at once, and have already made adjustments accordingly. I can still accept that some how, maybe I did mess something up in the purge, but my honest hunch is that the main benefit of this test is that it will definitively rule out the purging as an issue in question.
Never the less, I appreciate the input all the same! If nothing else, it is forcing me to go back thru every step to rule out and put to rest the possibilities that are NOT effecting my results.
I would rephrase "surface area factor" in " layer thickness factor".
The next important factor is the temperature.
At a temperature below the boiling point, ethanol evaporates from the surface only,
and the molecules from the bulk of the material very slowly transported to the surface by diffusion.
Residual ethanol trapped in the interior of the material, as in a vial.
Ethanol is completely removed from the thin layer of melted because
the temperature of the melt is equal to or slightly greater than the boiling point of ethanol,
and the resistance of the melt viscosity is much lower than that of the softened but not melted resin.
The thinner the layer, the shorter and quicker way out of resin capture.
In my opinion, evaporation below the boiling point of ethanol and the melting point of the resin is very inefficient.
Resistance of thick viscous layer certainly keeps the residual ethanol, and that plasticizes absolute, not giving it to harden.
The next important factor is the temperature.
At a temperature below the boiling point, ethanol evaporates from the surface only,
and the molecules from the bulk of the material very slowly transported to the surface by diffusion.
Residual ethanol trapped in the interior of the material, as in a vial.
Ethanol is completely removed from the thin layer of melted because
the temperature of the melt is equal to or slightly greater than the boiling point of ethanol,
and the resistance of the melt viscosity is much lower than that of the softened but not melted resin.
The thinner the layer, the shorter and quicker way out of resin capture.
In my opinion, evaporation below the boiling point of ethanol and the melting point of the resin is very inefficient.
Resistance of thick viscous layer certainly keeps the residual ethanol, and that plasticizes absolute, not giving it to harden.
No, I'm not doing a quick wash. I'll be extracting with butane first and then winterizing the oleoresin.
Yo Jump! Thanks for throwin some input into the mix. I think what your saying has major relevance and SEEMS like the most reasonable explanation. It just stumps me because if what your saying is the reason for my lack of hardening, then my same purging method, which has worked 20+ times in the past (and never not worked before), is now suddenly somehow insufficient.... But If what your saying IS in fact the reason for my issue, then would my current experiment of re-dissolving 2 grams of my extract into alcohol to re-evaporate, be a good way to confirm this? Evaporating just 2 g's leaves the thinnest layer, and I have never in the past had any issues with runs that small evaporating completely on their own (meaning no vac or additional heat). SO if this gives me the consistency Im looking for, then my error must be in the purging/ evaporation process, and I'll feel like a bonehead, lol. Like I said tho, my current procedure has been tried and true every single time before this non-hardening issue began so I will be shocked if I do get AA from the "re-dissolve/re-evap test".
Just to talk temp a little, I do my evaporation with my pyrex on a seedling mat so that adds an element of heat. In addition, the room I evap. in is much warmer now (in the summer) than it was when I was doing this in february, yet even back in feb, I was getting AA. So my heat variable has only gone higher in temp (and therefore easier to purge). So again, the temp variable is a valid possibility to examine, but it seems like that would have been more of an issue in the winter, and evaporation ought to be more effective in the summer, not the other way around.
Also just to throw it out there, I have infact speculated that the viscosity was too high and there MUST be ethanol still in there, so to experiment with purging at a reduced viscosity I put a small amount of extract on some parchment in the toaster oven until tiny bubbles formed and rose to the surface on their own (almost looking like a pre-boil), and at THAT state, I then threw it in the vac and it bubbled very rapidly for about a minute. I then left the oil in a vac state and put it back on the seedling mat for a few days. It still didnt harden up the AA tho so I repeated that process 2 more times over the next week!.... and after all that, if that didn't evaporate off the ethanol, I dunno wtf will! So That is definitly a variable I considered, but after my test, I decided that wasn't the issue (tho Im sure I could have somehow done that experiment incorrectly).
Sorry to spend sooo much time trouble shooting this with you guys, I hope your not bored with my problem by now, ha. But I figure bringing this up in here will help someone in the future who runs into my same issue. and if there IS still some unaccounted for variable playing a part, Im sure we can all benefit from identifying it. But I will refrain from posting any more novels until after I've run a few more experiments and actually have something interesting to mention. You guys are great and I appreciate all the input.
If your not alcohol washing your raw plant matter, I dont see the relevance of finding a ratio of alcohol to raw plant matter... maybe I misunderstood. Perhaps a ratio of alcohol to your initial extract might be more appropriate? I still wouldn't have an "educated" answer tho, lol, sorry man. That is a good question I have wondered myself. Obviously you'd want at least enough to fully submerge whatever your starting extract is tho. I have noticed that if my alc/thc ratio is too low, it makes the liquid much more "syrupy" and takes longer to run thru the filter, in which case I added more alcohol, which thinned out the solution better and allowed it to pass through the filter much easier. Then the drawback is that you just have that much more alcohol to evaporate off in your final stage. I know I didnt answer your question but I hope that helps. Good luck brotha
Greetings to everyone!
Just want to add my two cents.
First of all, it is a really pleasant fact that a topic started by our countryman has found such a positive feedback and fruitful discusssion here. Bravo Jump!
Though i've been reading this thread almost since it's very beginning, my first AA run I made only last February and nowadays amber is my daily driver.
Since that I made a few batches of AA using thermos soaking process both with fresh and dry materials and different results ( quality and quantity wise )
Below are pictures of ethanol solution right after freezer night from my last batch.
The left glass with greenish solution is a result of 2 hours soaking of dry material which I made wrong based on previous experience with fresh buds.
Two other glasses are coming from next day run after I humidified buds (with cigar box humidifier) and decreased soaking time to half an hour.
These are the final pictures of AA.
I have to say that my AA is not that hard and crisp as you can see on pictures of other amber fans above.It is not gooey either or bho like. It just becomes soft at room temperature (70-75 F) and sticks a bit to my fingers when I touch it. I store it my fridge, so it does not bother me at all. Im not sure about the reason - may be strain and immature material I used or not enough purge of ethanol. The latter is more feasible from my my point of view but I did not have enough material to experiment and share the results.
May be next time.
Just want to add my two cents.
First of all, it is a really pleasant fact that a topic started by our countryman has found such a positive feedback and fruitful discusssion here. Bravo Jump!
Though i've been reading this thread almost since it's very beginning, my first AA run I made only last February and nowadays amber is my daily driver.
Since that I made a few batches of AA using thermos soaking process both with fresh and dry materials and different results ( quality and quantity wise )
Below are pictures of ethanol solution right after freezer night from my last batch.
The left glass with greenish solution is a result of 2 hours soaking of dry material which I made wrong based on previous experience with fresh buds.
Two other glasses are coming from next day run after I humidified buds (with cigar box humidifier) and decreased soaking time to half an hour.
These are the final pictures of AA.
I have to say that my AA is not that hard and crisp as you can see on pictures of other amber fans above.It is not gooey either or bho like. It just becomes soft at room temperature (70-75 F) and sticks a bit to my fingers when I touch it. I store it my fridge, so it does not bother me at all. Im not sure about the reason - may be strain and immature material I used or not enough purge of ethanol. The latter is more feasible from my my point of view but I did not have enough material to experiment and share the results.
May be next time.
