A Twisted Satori or Three

[moose eater]

Edit: See pics in post #5.

My Satori #2 is from breeder pack, to me, to the mixes. First go-round, all was good, but for some notable imbalance in nutes, but everything was cool.

She's now in her second 'go', and 2 of the cuttings from her have VERY twisted and deformed leaves near the top; wrinkled, folded, UGLY like a monkey's ass. One of them has a very mild case, and 2 are normal as all get-out. (5 in total, counting the affected and unaffected)

They are all from the same mother, all in the same (well-mixed) mix, and, other than for a very recent moderate dose of SaferGro Biomin Calcium (1-0-0), have been fed nothing but the well-measured organic feed in the soilless mix, which was allowed to 'cook' in totes for over 2 months before transplant..

I can't post pics, as my estranged older son previously did that for me, with a camera he had that is safe in all regards, and.... as stated, we're estranged.. BIG TIME.

So, mutant leaves? At the top? Only on 2-1/2 plants that all came from the same mother, in the same mix, same conditions, same lighting (315 cmh, with augmentation from high-output LEDs in the corners of the boxes).

I used to see some very limited and TEMPORARY distortion to the whole plant when transplanting into a STOUT bloom mix with a serious boost of P, but this ain't that; and that feature typically only lasted a day, like a reaction or adjustment to new stuff in concentration..

The affected leaves on the current plants (at the tops of the affected plants only) are, again, folded, bent, wrinkled, and look like a nuclear experiment gone awry.

I wondered if in the mixing, perhaps some boron/Borax, glommed onto a damp chunk of EWC or something (otherwise all items are mixed in a tumbler, pre-wetting/dry), as that, or perhaps the limited amount of copper (also tumbled when the mix is dry), might've resulted in this.

I'm puzzled, perplexed, pissed off, pickled, and peeved.

All of that said, they're growing bushy, and the older leaves on the affected plants look dynamite; not a thing notably out of order. So otherwise, my intention, unless someone has seen this before and has a good answer to this issue (and I recall reading about someone here whose Satori had deformities like/similar), my intention is to allow them to continue growing, assuming that if it's a poison pill of some sort, whether copper, boron, or (??) they'll grow out of it, like the other 2-1/2 unaffected plants...

Ideas? Thoughts? Something I can whisper to them to frighten them into compliance?

 

[Gry]

My Satori #2 is from breeder pack, to me, to the mixes. First go-round, all was good, but for some notable imbalance in nutes, but everything was cool.

She's now in her second 'go', and 2 of the cuttings from her have VERY twisted and deformed leaves near the top; wrinkled, folded, UGLY like a monkey's ass. One of them has a very mild case, and 2 are normal as all get-out. (5 in total, counting the affected and unaffected)

They are all from the same mother, all in the same (well-mixed) mix, and, other than for a very recent moderate dose of SaferGro Biomin Calcium (1-0-0), have been fed nothing but the well-measured organic feed in the soilless mix, which was allowed to 'cook' in totes for over 2 months before transplant..

I can't post pics, as my estranged older son previously did that for me, with a camera he had that is safe in all regards, and.... as stated, we're estranged.. BIG TIME.

So, mutant leaves? At the top? Only on 2-1/2 plants that all came from the same mother, in the same mix, same conditions, same lighting (315 cmh, with augmentation from high-output LEDs in the corners of the boxes).

I used to see some very limited and TEMPORARY distortion to the whole plant when transplanting into a STOUT bloom mix with a serious boost of P, but this ain't that; and that feature typically only lasted a day, like a reaction or adjustment to new stuff in concentration..

The affected leaves on the current plants (at the tops of the affected plants only) are, again, folded, bent, wrinkled, and look like a nuclear experiment gone awry.

I wondered if in the mixing, perhaps some boron/Borax, glommed onto a damp chunk of EWC or something (otherwise all items are mixed in a tumbler, pre-wetting/dry), as that, or perhaps the limited amount of copper (also tumbled when the mix is dry), might've resulted in this.

I'm puzzled, perplexed, pissed off, pickled, and peeved.

All of that said, they're growing bushy, and the older leaves on the affected plants look dynamite; not a thing notably out of order. So otherwise, my intention, unless someone has seen this before and has a good answer to this issue (and I recall reading about someone here whose Satori had deformities like/similar), my intention is to allow them to continue growing, assuming that if it's a poison pill of some sort, whether copper, boron, or (??) they'll grow out of it, like the other 2-1/2 unaffected plants...

Ideas? Thoughts? Something I can whisper to them to frighten them into compliance?

Suggest to them that if they do not get right quickly, you will send the balance of the seed to me, and watch them dance.

 

[moose eater]

Suggest to them that if they do not get right quickly, you will send the balance of the seed to me, and watch them dance.

I usually save eviction or lethal injection as a last resort, but... maybe it'll cause them to shape up.

The only thing that MIGHT have affected them in such a way as to cause the differences that I can think of, is that during my stay(s) in the hospital(s), when another was tending my garden, there may have been issues with insufficient watering; as in, routine watering, but not enough to fully wet the base of the insides of -some- of the pots. (*Good help is hard to find sometimes, but they got extra credit for willingness and effort.. and this was their first go-round with such a task, so.....)

One of the affected plants is directly under the 315 cmh, with proper distance of roughly 16"+, and the other more profoundly affected plant is in a corner spot, within the foot-print of the 315 cmh, but more directly under an LED flood lamp, with that lamp close to 2' (+/-) above it. So it doesn't appear to be a lighting issue, the humidity is the same for all of them, as is heat... So the only things I can think of re. differences they might've experienced, are the possibility that a chunk of something stout got caught up on something damp, and the only damp items into the mix are EWC's (remote, as I've been mixing soilless mixes in cement tumblers for decades), or that there was a disparity in the thoroughness of the watering schedule they received from the poorly-compensated 'hired help'.

"Curiouser and curiouser."

 

[Gry]

I trust you will pull them into fine shape and they will deliver faithfully and well for you. Been using led type bulbs mixed in with the
normal HPS or MH, but have never used them alone. Am doing so now for the first time, and am impressed as can be with them temp
wise, but the way the plant responds is different enough that it is taking a while for me to catch on.

 

[moose eater]

​

The first 2 images are of a content Satori #2 at about 4.5 weeks of bloom; lots of trichomes, awesome scent, and 'normal' leaf formation.

The second 2 pics show distorted mutant leaves, otherwise similar scent and close to the same trichome presence.

Both plants were put into the same mix, same fertilizer regimen, etc.

Best guess to explain the distorted leaves, as explained in an earlier post, includes disparity in watering schedule or a small concentration of minerals in the initial mix. The watering explanation is, in my opinion, more likely the culprit than the poor mixing, as I mix dry, then wet and re-mix.

 

[Creeperpark]

Its a hot spot in the container from having not been mixed evenly or not broken down enough. Usually when one has several plants from the same mix do well, except for one, or two, it is mostly is due to the mix not getting mixed or breaking down enough. Check the EC or ppm out the bottom with a little distilled water and you will see what I mean. The one with the leaf damage will have a higher EC or ppm if I'm not mistaken. I love Satori!!

 

[moose eater]

Thanks.

The reason for mentioning the watering regimen was that a person with scant experience was helping me for over a month while I was debilitated, when there were a variety of plants crowded in a small space in 5"-6" pots, and without a doubt, there were variances in the saturation from pot to pot. With that, uneven drying for some, and too much saturation at times for others, I suspected there might be either root damage from drying, &/or root damage from a mid-grade or lesser fungal infection.

I'll need to acquire an EC/TDS meter to see what the output is; don't have one here.

They're in a SSM#4 Advanced Organic and Pro-Mix-based soilless mix, diluted after the fact to 75% of original, with lots of P (due to P being previously bound or inhibited in past analysis), and decent levels of other nutes and micro-nutes on the tests (both Mehlich III & H2O extraction) in prior 'hotter' mixes.

Thanks.

 

[moose eater]

And yes, Satori is typically easy to grow (thus far), has good production, awesome trich production, excellent flavor and high, and typically a fairly compact profile for indoor efforts.

 

[Creeperpark]

I love the Ganesh too, its a little smaller and compact with a sweet smell from the same breeders..

 

[therevverend]

Totally twisted man. Gives me flashbacks to when I was beekeeping, in the early 2000's when the varroa mites were starting to get bad. There would be new bees born with chewed up wings that looked like that. Sometimes they'd look pale or under-developed. The workers would throw them out on the landing board and they'd stumble around. It was fucked up, traumatized me a bit. It can happen from natural causes, a cold night affecting the larvae's development or an old queen, but it was happening too often during nice summer weather to productive hives. I read a while back that it's one of the symptoms not of the mites but of a virus the mites spread, doesn't affect the adults but the larvae, as the mites start to hang out in the brood frames. I hate it. It was a harbinger of destruction, the colony would always weaken and lose productivity, often die completely, within a year of when it started.

Do your plants have a fucked up fungal disease? No idea, I guess it's possible. If the only effect is only a few fucked up leaves you're lucky. I doubt that's what it is because viruses are rare and in your garden it doesn't effect all the plants They look like seedlings I've had that had their tops nibbled by slugs or sow bugs. As the leaves get big they look like that, sort of chewed up and distorted with weird development. I wonder if any critters like that could have been attracted to the heat and moisture.

No other ideas, I've had stuff like that come up that was a mystery to me, a few twisted leaves but everything turned out fine. I've got an Ancient OG x Ancient OG that's got similar weird mutated twisted growth on top, it's been that way it's entire life. Maybe a virus but I think it's a mutant. It's siblings don't have it so I'm not going to worry about it.

Curious how the Satori will turn out, always seemed like a nice strain I've thought about growing a couple of times. Seems to do good outdoors/indoors. I heard the same thing you hear about a lot of stuff, the stock isn't as good as it was before 2015 or 2013 or something. A lot of Dutch companies have screwed up their stock but I also wonder how much nostalgia and luck are involved. I tend to wonder about potency, some of the old Dutch strains have it and some don't, we will see?

I'll upload a couple pictures of the mutated Ancient OG, similar growth but maybe not quite as bad. It's gotten worse as the plant has aged. (Holy shit! It just allowed me to open a picture.)

 

[therevverend]

Holy shit I just uploaded a picture instead of an attachment for the first time! Took me almost an hour of messing with my albums and media page! My albums are still fucked and loading pictures into it is like pulling teeth, and I can't easily look at my pictures or anyone elses', it's a total mess, but at least it's one tiny victory.

 

[moose eater]

Thanks, rev.

Yes, the reason I mentioned the watering regimen they received while I was laid up, was that the person helping me didn't have a lot of experience, and if a peat-based medium is permitted to dry too much, watering can result in run-off that -looks- like it got a good drink, but, in fact, has ample dry pockets around what had otherwise been healthy roots. And I saw some evidence of that when I transplanted them from the 5" to 6" pots, into the 7-gallon pots they're in now.

The other possibility, and not exclusive of what I just described, might be a limited fungus relative to excess dry conditions, followed by excessive watering, trying to make up lost ground.

Who knows?

It's not the entire plant that's involved, even on the 2 most affected.

And no other plants from that 'throw' have this expression, to include Satori #5 (completely untouched by whatever this is), the remaining Satori #2, Goji OG, and White Lotus #4; all clear of mutations...

And as stated, the Satori # 2's are all from the same mother, with some unscathed, and some as seen in the 'twisted pics' above.

My mixes are nearly -always- tumbled dry in a decent size cement mixer, then hydrated, and tumbled wet. If they need adjusted, they'd be done while still in the mixer, and tumbled again. Though I think the Satori # 2 DID get its dilution to the mix by hand-mixing, though it was done pretty thoroughly.

And there's no critters in there that I've seen recently; yellow sticky traps x 5 in each area (and let me add that THOSE things have become unreasonably and inexplicably -expensive-!! Why??!)

Anyway, it's the most bizarre leaf configuration I've ever seen. Period.

I was going to follow up and snag a TDS/EC pen in town today, but the fellow I was going to snag one from said he has a superior product coming in soon, at a marginally higher price than the lower end pens he had in stock; new ones coming from Milwaukee Instruments, as opposed to Blue Lab pens at nearly double the price...

So I'll wait a bit, see a few more Docs, and by the time my head quits spinning from all of that, he should have his new wares in.

Thanks for your input. Always welcome.

By the way, the texture of the leaf in one or more of your pics above, can be seen on lesser affected leaves on the Satori plants with the strange distortions.

So, again, who knows? Maybe a virus of some sort, indeed. Maybe I'll discover it has cancer-curing properties?? ;^>)

Well, I'd best go see if any of the girls are thirsty. A good bit of the Satori, White Lotus and Goji OG is hopefully going to get used for making THC-A extract, to wage further war on my cancer. And aside from the negatively presenting plants discussed, they're looking positive, though Goji is over-fed, when Satori is just right, or so it seems.

Take care.

 

[buzzmobile]

And there's no critters in there that I've seen recently; yellow sticky traps x 5 in each area (and let me add that THOSE things have become unreasonably and inexplicably -expensive-!! Why??!)

Yellow plastic folders cut into appropriate sizes with a light smear of tanglefoot cuts out the unreasonable and inexplicable. Wear gloves.

 

[moose eater]

She (the Satori #2) turned out more than acceptably, despite the deformities in the leaves of the 2.5 plants.

Had to trim a couple primary colas that were McHuge, when I discovered bud rot within, early enough to avoid cat-ass-trophy.

But here She be; some of the larger intermediate colas (medium large, but not the primaries) from the effort. Sticky, trichomes aplenty, and I never ended up getting the EC/TDS meter, as too much money went out for the fishing trip to the Yukon Territory.

The Satori #5, more bushy, but slightly smaller stature, and more dense in foliage, has similarly sized colas, but no bud rot yet. Not even the minimal amount I found in Satori #2. Hmmm. Nor did #5 have any of the deformed leaf stuff going on. Same humidity and temps, etc., though the limited amount of rot I found in the Satori 2 was admittedly in the far side of the box from the cross-room air flow from the intake into the shop, to the effluent that travels through the carbon box.

Another would-be nightmare with a happy ending.

 

[Creeperpark]

Super job, those buds look super. Lucky you, I love Satori and is a favorite weed for me. You have a very nice color on those buds. Get yourself a meter for the next time. Every grower should have a EC or a TDS meter as well as a pH meter.

 

[moose eater]

Super job, those buds look super. Lucky you, I love Satori and is a favorite weed for me. You have a very nice color on those buds. Get yourself a meter for the next time. Every grower should have a EC or a TDS meter as well as a pH meter.

I like her quite a bit as well, but this time around, the happier She became, and the more ripe She got, the more prone to bud rot she was becoming. Only 2 primary colas affected thus far, but that's 2 too many, in my opinion.

I even got a tiny bit of bud rot in the White Lotus #4 have; rarely seen this in recent years. Though, admittedly, it was a damp spring and summer, and the HRV intake is slowed/constricte4d in the summer by noseeum mesh and a MERV 8 pre-filter, in order to prolong the life of the core between cleanings.

Between the 2 variables, I've been running about 55% humidity in the shop, though with fairly consistent and voluminous air flow.

Thanks for the compliments, by the way. I've never used an EC meter, but tried to pay attention to the soilless mix contents, which are still being micro-dialed in.. Closer to good, but not quite there yet. Maybe seeking perfection has been a disability, too. ;^>)

 

[Creeperpark]

Mold is a symptom, or side effect of something being out of balance in the environment. If one limits the amount of excess nutrient exposure they give to the plant, they can minimize mold and other common plant problems.

 

[moose eater]

Mold is a symptom, or side effect of something being out of balance in the environment. If one limits the amount of excess nutrient exposure they give to the plant, they can minimize mold and other common plant problems.

I'd given a clone of each (Satori 2 & 5) to a friend in the bush, who had them under weak lights on maintenance until he could put them in a greenhouse. Most of the summer, when it was relatively warm and sunny (lots of days it wasn't) he had a number of walls open in the greenhouse, so they could catch cross-drafts, and air. He uses a very different base in his mixes than I use, and his crops are typically beautiful.

He also had the early presence of bud rot with one of the two Satori clones I gifted him.

In the end, I suspect that She's persnickety about her humidity levels, and may be, if for no other reason than her style of bud formation, prone to bud rot.

None the less, with two primary colas on the Satori 2 here having early stages of bud rot that wasn't pervasive enough to not be cut out, and the rest retained, and the Satori 5 having none of that thus far, I didn't take too bad of a hit.

Before this experience, had I chosen which of the 2 I was going to keep, if I had to discard one of them, it would've likely been the Satori 2 I'd have kept. But I believe at this time, I'd give serious thought to retaining the Satori 5, due to the absence of bud rot.

Mind you, I have scant knowledge at this time if Satori 2 will do as she did last time, and out-produce Satori 5, and my friend in the bush had the reverse experience with them, getting more flower weight from #5. Different settings, mixes, environmental factors, etc., all contributed to the different outcomes, no doubt. Including the fact that he had sun in a greenhouse, and I had 315 CMH and augmentation from some LED floods in each corner of the boxes.

 

[Creeperpark]

Moose eater you are keeping up with everything nicely, and you know your stuff really well and thank you for sharing.
Mold can hide under the epidermis of the leaf, or stem, and can lie dormant, for a long time, without being seen. The spores look for a dark, cool place where air does not circulate well, then the spore sinks its little feet, called "hyphae," into the spaces that make up the surface of leaf. When using clones you are most likely transporting cuttings that have these hyphae attached under the epidermis. Every clone from that plant will have hyphae attached to it and infect any other plants it can call a good host. Before the hyphae become mycelium and start growing on the tissue it will wait for the right conditions. "Boom, mold problem" . I don't use anything that is cloned ever! I only grow from seed every time for a good reason!

 

[moose eater]

Moose eater you are keeping up with everything nicely, and you know your stuff really well and thank you for sharing.
Mold can hide under the epidermis of the leaf, or stem, and can lie dormant, for a long time, without being seen. The spores look for a dark, cool place where air does not circulate well, then the spore sinks its little feet, called "hyphae," into the spaces that make up the surface of leaf. When using clones you are most likely transporting cuttings that have these hyphae attached under the epidermis. Every clone from that plant will have hyphae attached to it and infect any other plants it can call a good host. Before the hyphae become mycelium and start growing on the tissue it will wait for the right conditions. "Boom, mold problem" . I don't use anything that is cloned ever! I only grow from seed every time for a good reason!

Thanks.

Out of consistency and habit, I've been maintaining some of the current mothers from clones for over 20 years; my California Indica (Dronkers' Sensi Seeds, from Amsterdam (circa 1997 from there to home in places not discussed), the original Arjan's Greenhouse Super Lemon Haze (going on 20 years old now), and a couple others that are starting to walk a bit like I do, with a cane and a grimace.

The Cali Indica I've kept as she has a very distinct UP Up and AWAY high, is an amazingly productive plant, and she's typically easy to trim. She was also the first plant I sorted out after we built our home here, having moved back North from the Coastal area of S. Central Alaska, in 1997.

Your reference to 'the right conditions' rings true. The HRV is critical, and as described, the bug screening and particulate screening that I place on the intake areas in the summer, cause a reduction in air-changes via pressure restriction. When I go into the shop, and I start smelling musty smells, I know it's past time to clean the core and other parts of the HRV. Therein exists the 'perfect' or 'necessary conditions' for mold.

In the summer time, when we're watering the veggie gardens outside, I flip the ball valves on the mechanical wall near the shop into a position where they can bypass the softener, and let the various manifolds and sprinklers on stands in the veggie and potato gardens do their thing. Unfortunately, with the differential in temperature between ground water and air temperature, the pipes sweat like a bastard as often as not, and thus, moisture is introduced into an environment that is -sometimes- (not always) struggling for proper air changes.

It's a known risk, and more easily avoided in the winter, when the restrictions don't exist on the HRV's intake, but winter also brings other similar challenges, like having the unit going into auto-defrost mode every 12 minutes or so (by disconnecting the thermistor in the circuit board, to cause it to panic.. more or less to my and its benefit.. but sometimes....) Some of the down-sides of living in an extremely efficient, warm, tight house that relies on 'imported air' from such devices, and knowing that in the Sub-Arctic, where we need HRV's and the like the most, happens to also be the places where they function the most poorly. Murphy strikes again!! ;^>)

I keep hoping that Venn Mar & LifeBreath will make peace with each other, and incorporate Venn Mar's HRV case or 'shell' to LifeBreath's aluminum core, and have a truly winning product, but that's not how capitalism works most of the time.

Mostly done clipping the Satori #2, and mildly worried about the Satori #5, as it has a purplish hue to the sugar-trim leaves on the flowers reminiscent of what I think is either a zinc or manganese def., and she's close to meeting the Grim reaper, so feeding her anything is off the table. Going to have to decide something or other with her, as the White Lotus #4 and the Goji OG #8 are very nicely cloudy with their trichomes, and the bracts are plump, with pistils fully retracted (except for the smattering of new pistils).

I've come to believe that indoors, these girls of different strains are like a sorority of women whose cycles all come to align over time to the same basic part of the month. seriously. 4 strains, flipped to 12:12 on different days, with supposedly different ripening times, and they all seem to come at me at once, ripe in the same 3-4 day period. Like growing broccoli, and ending up with 36 heads all at once; a "what do I do NOW??!!" moment, for sure.

As far as my skill set and ganja production, I often tell folks I've been growing with a hefty dose of beginners luck for decades, and only when I delve too deeply, chasing things down rabbit holes best left alone, do I make things too complicated, and fuck things up worse than they were.. A Buddhist (or other) life's challenge to find satisfaction where it is, instead of looking over another rainbow for Nirvana, so to speak.

Thanks for the exchange, compliments, input, information, and more. I'm off to finish a glass of Aussie red wine, eat a couple more smoked almonds, and call it a day.

Take care.