2018 light efficiency ultimate battle

[aerorev]

First post in the forum. I’ve been growing for about 16 years mainly outdoor.*


Started indoor a couple years ago using 1000w’s HPS’s with magnetic ballasts. Later on I switched to 400w Phillips HPS with Lumatek electronic ballasts for efficiency.*


I’m seeing a lot of discussion and contradictory information on the efficiency of LEDs vs HPS vs CMH and I’m trying to clear the waters. If I’m making the full switch and investing a couple thousand I might be sure of what’s working better. I’ve seen side by side grows on forums and either some are poorly done without any kind of scientific method approach or they are biased. The cannabis industry is looking more and more like the fitness supplement industry with a lot of big brands marketing things with incorrect data.


In your opinion what is the most efficient light source when comparing gram per watt of dried weight? (Power consumption vs grams of dried weight)


Other factors and advantages such as heat emission, potency, cost of the equipment, etc are not to be compared. If some lights have better spectrum, etc is also not important. We will focus on gram per watt exclusively on this discussion and keep it focused around this subject.*


Let me know about your personal opinion, links to properly done side by sides, etc…

 

[Ibechillin]

The type of light source doesnt really matter when it comes to surpassing the 1gpw barrier, more about using a given light more efficiently and dialing in the environment.

Environment is the number 1 factor: optimal light coverage, temps, humidity, CO2, grow medium, feeding/watering routine and nutrition. Veg time can be circumvented by running more small plants in a an area SOG.

Follow the link in my signature How To Get 1.5+ Grams Per Watt! for more information.

 

[Azeotrope]

Hitting 1.2gpw with CMH/LEC/CDM has been easy. Organic no-till bed and the right strain. Ace Malawi..........

There are a lot of factors beyond your light source but, it does make the difference when temps and other factors are dialed.

 

[aerorev]

The type of light source doesnt really matter when it comes to surpassing the 1gpw barrier, more about using a given light more efficiently and dialing in the environment.

Environment is the number 1 factor: optimal light coverage, temps, humidity, CO2, grow medium, feeding/watering routine and nutrition. Veg time can be circumvented by running more small plants in a an area SOG.

Follow the link in my signature How To Get 1.5+ Grams Per Watt! for more information.

I don't agree with you. "The type of light source doesnt really matter when it comes to surpassing the 1gpw barrier" - you mean if you use for example incandescent light you would go above 1g per watt? OFC not. The type of light source does matter because they are not all equal in efficiency.

"and dialing in the environment.

Environment is the number 1 factor: optimal light coverage, temps, humidity, CO2, grow medium, feeding/watering routine and nutrition. Veg time can be circumvented by running more small plants in a an area SOG.

Follow the link in my signature How To Get 1.5+ Grams Per Watt! for more information.[/QUOTE]
"

I'm not considering the environment as stated in my post. What I want to know is information on side by side with the same environment to get to the conclusion of which system works best. In my case I'm doing mono strain dtw HPA SCROG, closed room, CO2 with cooling in place. The environment is always in check and doesn't change by an "inch". If I invest in a LED unit for example I will test it against a 400w HPS on the same conditions. One will perform better than the other for sure as light source does matter so I don't get the point you are trying to prove.

 

[aerorev]

Hitting 1.2gpw with CMH/LEC/CDM has been easy. Organic no-till bed and the right strain. Ace Malawi..........

There are a lot of factors beyond your light source but, it does make the difference when temps and other factors are dialed.

Do you believe LEC outperforms LED when comparing watts of electricity drawn?

 

[Ibechillin]

HPS, LED, and CMH are grow lights,
Incandescent and cfl are not grow lights and hold no relevance to the discussion imho.

Issack just finished a side by side Hortilux Super hps 1000 watt vs Philips 3100k 630 watt cmh grow that you would probably appreciate reading through. He ran 4 of each light over its own 4x4 space with the same strain in 2 gallon pots of coco multifed in a dialed environment.

1000w hortilux Super hps side averaged ~2 pounds per light (about a gram per watt).

630w Philips 3100k Cmh side yielded over 2 pounds per light, heaviest light yielded 2 pounds and 13ozs for 2gpw.

Here is the link to his thread:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=352859

The same 2GPW is achievable running vertical 600w HPS bulbs surrounded by plants, its all in using the light efficiently.

 

[aerorev]

HPS, LED, and CMH are grow lights,
Incandescent and cfl are not grow lights and hold no relevance to the discussion imho.

Issack just finished a side by side 1000 hps vs 630 cmh grow that you would probably appreciate reading through. He ran 4 of each light over its own 4x4 space with the same strain in 2 gallon pots of coco multifed in a dialed environment.

1000w hps side averaged ~2 pounds per light (about a gram per watt).

630 Cmh side yielded over 2 pounds per light, heaviest light yielded 2 pounds and 13ozs for 2gpw.

Here is the link to his thread:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=352859

The same 2GPW is achievable running vertical 600w HPS bulbs surrounded by plants, its all in using the light efficiently.

If all the factors were exactly the same this clearly proves light source is indeed very important and you cannot discard it or see it as similar. If he was using 4kw HPS he would produce 8 pounds. If he was using 4kw of CMH he would produce 12.7 pounds. OFC I know this is not linear and there are much more factors but clearly proves for the same wattage they produce a lot more or you can use less wattage to produce the same either way you look at it.

Have you got any links to a vertical system producing 2gpw?

thanks for the link Ibechillin this is exactly the type of tests I'm looking for and the ones that would take us in the right direction into making better decisions.

 

[Azeotrope]

Do you believe LEC outperforms LED when comparing watts of electricity drawn?

To me, that is not a linear comparison. GPW is just one very basic measurement. Other factors and plant qualities/expressions/growth/health are weighted more heavily than raw yield when I query over lighting. My personal preference is for the CDM/LEC as it is truly full spectrum. LED fixtures are a collection of monochromatic diodes that each hit a specific nm. Not the same coverage.

For general lighting in buildings and homes, street lights and many other applications then, LED is probably the first place to look. I am not sold on them for agriculture unless there are considerations like heat load that cannot be overcome otherwise.

 

[Ibechillin]

Bottom line is more plants = more yield in a given area if you can spread the light efficiently over the canopy, whether its on the ground or up around the walls.

These 2 links are full of great information about vertical recirculating hydro from Heath Robinson, he shared alot of great information in them, lots to read...

https://www.rollitup.org/t/critical-mass-tree-grow-x-2.101347/

https://www.rollitup.org/t/heaths-flooded-tube-vertical.149998/

If you follow the 1.5+ GPW link in my signature there is more information about 2GPW vertical growing from DHF/DunHav`nFun.
There is also info from him about yielding 4lbs per 1000w hps for 1.792GPW over a 4x4 flood table with 256 clones no veg time...

As well as info from Dr.king about hitting 2GPW with 550 watts, a 400w ebay hps light overhead in a 5 x 5 x 7 with 2 mars 300 led panels for side lighting. (The mars 300 only pulls ~150 watts when its running full power, he only runs them at 50% for side lighting pulling 75 watts each)

For the record im a big fan of CMH lights.

 

[Itsmychoice]

Lots of variables

Lots of variables

I think the big difference in the 1000 watt hps de and the 630 cmh de is coverage. The 1000s cover a true 5x5 and penetrate deeper through the canopy. The 630s are more like 4x4 and don’t go as deep in the canopy. I have done several runs with cmh and they are impressive flowers and might even finish some strains a few days earlier than the hps but as far as total output the 1000s are significantly ahead. I am running 2 of the 630 cmh de lights with 2 quantum board 550 LEDs over an 8x9 and then next run I will switch the bulbs out to the 1000s running the same clone to see what the difference in output is. I have seen 3 pounds a light under 4 1000 watt hps several times. To keep life interesting I like to play with different combinations.

 

[MJPassion]

HPS, LED, and CMH are grow lights,
Incandescent and cfl are not grow lights and hold no relevance to the discussion imho.

Issack just finished a side by side 1000 hps vs 630 cmh grow that you would probably appreciate reading through. He ran 4 of each light over its own 4x4 space with the same strain in 2 gallon pots of coco multifed in a dialed environment.

1000w hps side averaged ~2 pounds per light (about a gram per watt).

630 Cmh side yielded over 2 pounds per light, heaviest light yielded 2 pounds and 13ozs for 2gpw.

Here is the link to his thread:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=352859

The same 2GPW is achievable running vertical 600w HPS bulbs surrounded by plants, its all in using the light efficiently.

HPS IS A STREET LIGHT converted to a grow light.
Get your history right!
HPS has never been optimised for growing as it produces loads of IR which is reduced to HEAT!
I prefer a HIGH PAR Metal Hailide over HPS any day of the week for the same reasons that folks seem to be switching to CMH.
Though I have had an ID grow in a few years, I'm very interested in this threads conclution.
I don't think a poll will be conclusive either. It will be skewed due to the lack of input from 90% of the growers that AREN"T on the forums.


LED is, at this point and IMO, the most efficient light source available for growing and the spectrum can be optimized for cannabis growing.
I don't think it matters whether they're the single LEDs in big arrays (which have limited canopy penetration) or COBS. They both produce roughly the PAR as HID for about 70% of the cost of electricity.


BUT, I haven't looked at other light sources yet. It seems the CMH may be comparable to LEDs as far as efficiency goes.

 

[Ibechillin]

Im aware that HPS lamps were initially used for streetlights, but since ive been alive they have been the most used lamp type in greenhouse and indoor horticulture for both food and drug crops.

Really just a misinterpretation/differing matter of perspective, i wrote imho at the end of that top portion to hopefully avoid conflict lol.

 

[aerorev]

What do you think about QB led systems with all of them in the same spectrum?

 

[aerorev]

Bottom line is more plants = more yield in a given area if you can spread the light efficiently over the canopy, whether its on the ground or up around the walls.

These 2 links are full of great information about vertical recirculating hydro from Heath Robinson, he shared alot of great information in them, lots to read...

https://www.rollitup.org/t/critical-mass-tree-grow-x-2.101347/

https://www.rollitup.org/t/heaths-flooded-tube-vertical.149998/

If you follow the 1.5+ GPW link in my signature there is more information about 2GPW vertical growing from DHF/DunHav`nFun.
There is also info from him about yielding 4lbs per 1000w hps for 1.792GPW over a 4x4 flood table with 256 clones no veg time...

As well as info from Dr.king about hitting 2GPW with 550 watts, a 400w ebay hps light overhead in a 5 x 5 x 7 with 2 mars 300 led panels for side lighting. (The mars 300 only pulls ~150 watts when its running full power, he only runs them at 50% for side lighting pulling 75 watts each)

For the record im a big fan of CMH lights because of the close resemblance to actual sunlight. Im also obsessed with cost to yield figures and CMH lighting gets expensive vs hps.

I'm not a fan of vertical growing but I carefully check the links. Thanks for sharing

I believe a SOG with LED with even light spread would be a nice setup.

Also CMH and HPS need to be changed reg. LED's I believe are more bang for the buck if you can find them for a good price in the first place. I would love to see some QB vs CMH in terms of yield and later potency and terpene analysis. Someone in the US with the cash and space make that a reality

 

[aerorev]

HPS IS A STREET LIGHT converted to a grow light.
Get your history right!
HPS has never been optimised for growing as it produces loads of IR which is reduced to HEAT!
I prefer a HIGH PAR Metal Hailide over HPS any day of the week for the same reasons that folks seem to be switching to CMH.
Though I have had an ID grow in a few years, I'm very interested in this threads conclution.
I don't think a poll will be conclusive either. It will be skewed due to the lack of input from 90% of the growers that AREN"T on the forums.


LED is, at this point and IMO, the most efficient light source available for growing and the spectrum can be optimized for cannabis growing.
I don't think it matters whether they're the single LEDs in big arrays (which have limited canopy penetration) or COBS. They both produce roughly the PAR as HID for about 70% of the cost of electricity.


BUT, I haven't looked at other light sources yet. It seems the CMH may be comparable to LEDs as far as efficiency goes.

I believe this is true also and I've seen many people go in this direction. I had best results with 6500k MH's than HPS's although everybody states otherwise for flowering.

Have you got some solid info on Cannabis and adequate spectrum? I'm looking for this for a while but cannot find scientific research.

 

[Lost in a SOG]

Stem thickness can also be much much thicker in HPS grows, imo, because of the extra Far red induced heat and transpiration and a considerable amount of the weight in buds is in the stems.

I used HPS for 15 years, CMH for 5 and now I personally think LEDs are better than anything for yield and quality but all the lights have a different effect on parameters like hanging height, feeding, watering, humidity, temperature, growing technique viability like SOG/trees etc..

You have to dial anything new in to your setup but LEDs Imo are also easier for newer growers growing somewhere indoors as they just don't make as much heat which in poorly equipped grows is often a benefit.

Best spectrum is a broad one that hits the red and blue pigment peaks. The kelvin measurement is a weighted average of all wavelengths.

Id say 2.5-4 k for flowering and 4-5.5k in veg works well for me..

Quantum boards and Solstrips can pull awesome gpw without spending insane money or having to overdrive your plants.

 

[Ibechillin]

Have you got some solid info on Cannabis and adequate spectrum? I'm looking for this for a while but cannot find scientific research.

You might like these, i found them a few days ago.

https://eyehortilux.com/grow-lights-grow/beyond-par-lighting/

https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/489030

 

[aerorev]

Stem thickness can also be much much thicker in HPS grows, imo, because of the extra Far red induced heat and transpiration and a considerable amount of the weight in buds is in the stems.

I used HPS for 15 years, CMH for 5 and now I personally think LEDs are better than anything for yield and quality but all the lights have a different effect on parameters like hanging height, feeding, watering, humidity, temperature, growing technique viability like SOG/trees etc..

You have to dial anything new in to your setup but LEDs Imo are also easier for newer growers growing somewhere indoors as they just don't make as much heat which in poorly equipped grows is often a benefit.

Best spectrum is a broad one that hits the red and blue pigment peaks. The kelvin measurement is a weighted average of all wavelengths.

Id say 2.5-4 k for flowering and 4-5.5k in veg works well for me..

Quantum boards and Solstrips can pull awesome gpw without spending insane money or having to overdrive your plants.

I start to believe LED is the future... I only see advantages in using them.

what would you choose strictly for flowering?
3000k, 3500k, 4000k, other?

 

[aerorev]

You might like these, i found them a few days ago.

https://eyehortilux.com/grow-lights-grow/beyond-par-lighting/

https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/489030

Thanks a bunch for this

I'm without time now but will check them and probably open up a thread on spectrum discussion if there isn't already one

 

[hillbil]

All LEDs, mostly COBs for years andthey