150w HPS Club and Resource Guide......

[jawnroot]

I need to find some containers that are taller and skinny because that seems to work better with 20oz bottles instead of 16oz cups.

Catman, look into a product called MicroKote. It's a micronutrient liquid that you paint onto the side of your containers (or cups, in this case) that prevents the roots from growing along the sides and becoming bound.

In a standard container without MicroKote, this is what you get:

As you can see, the roots grow directly to the outside of the container and start spinning around the circumference. This is detrimental from a number of standpoints, not the least being that 50% of the medium or more isn't used until near the end of the grow, because the roots just want to grow straight out and spin around the container.

This is what you get with MicroKote:

As you can see, the roots are prevented from contacting the outside of the container, which encourages them to branch out early on and utilize all the medium. In effect, this doubles the media volume of your container. So a two gallon pot acts like a four gallon pot.

I should note that MicroKote isn't a substitute for upcanning. It just allows you to use a container for about twice as long as you normally would, and it frees up more volume in the containers you're already working with. So, in other words, you'll get a lot more mileage out of those 16 oz cups when treated with microkote, as opposed to leaving them as they are.

Definitely worth checking into. Do a google for Horticultural Specialties, which is the only place I'm aware of that sells MK. You can get pretreated containers, or liquid that you paint on yourself. On the site, the liquid is only sold in gallon quantities, but if you email the place they'll bottle it up in quart sizes. The cost is about as much as an average bottle of nutrients, and so worth it.

This stuff is industry standard. It's used start to finish on fruit crops and trees, so it's been well tested. In my experience, it works fantastic, and as advertised. I wish I could show you a picture of a MicroKote rootball vs. an untreated rootball, as the difference is unbelievable.

 

[Kelly.]

...

 

[grumblez]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to hoosierdaddy again.

I guess I know who my daddy is....lol.

Catman, DWC might not be a bad idea for a micro of sativa since the roots have no worries about all that soil fighting for volume. You have prolly seen grandmaster Pipedream's mini bubbler thread already. I am sure you could easily come up with something that would work in your space.

Hoosierdaddy (anyone for that matter), what do you use to tie your plants down with and what do you anchor them to?

Does one flatten the plant out by spreading it low or is the idea to simply keep bud sites from overlapping from branch layer to branch layer and arranging the limbs in space to ensure low shading?

I used some bamboo stakes to simply stagger the branches like this: * (an asterisk) from a bird's eye perspective....it seemed the easiest and most sensible thing to do in my case and I had the various length sticks laying around for orchids. I observed that my stems quickly got to the point where I was hesitant to start playing gumby with them...do you train from early veg?

Can anyone share some wisdom on this matter to a white belt?

Hiiiiiiii-Jah mon!

 

[catman]

Catman, look into a product called MicroKote. It's a micronutrient liquid that you paint onto the side of your containers (or cups, in this case) that prevents the roots from growing along the sides and becoming bound.


Definitely worth checking into. Do a google for Horticultural Specialties, which is the only place I'm aware of that sells MK. You can get pretreated containers, or liquid that you paint on yourself. On the site, the liquid is only sold in gallon quantities, but if you email the place they'll bottle it up in quart sizes. The cost is about as much as an average bottle of nutrients, and so worth it.

Wow, Thanks so much for passing that on to me and the others here.

I will be looking into this. I did some reading it on it already and apparently it's got some some copper chemical in it that makes the root tips die off when it touches them.

Have you emailed yourself and they sent you a quart sized container? If they are the only one selling it they must have the rights to it which means its patented because it works.

If it's good as advertised I'm not sure why I haven't heard much about. I'm sure many folks are irrationally afraid of it being non-organic or maybe it works so good it's a secret.

I would never ship a box to my current location with the words horticulture on it and I'm paranoid of asking them to ship discretely. Soon as I can make some arrangesments I'll try and get my hands on this stuff. I'm very curious to how it would work micro growing. Thanks again.

What size containers did you use?

Catman, DWC might not be a bad idea for a micro of sativa since the roots have no worries about all that soil fighting for volume. You have prolly seen grandmaster Pipedream's mini bubbler thread already. I am sure you could easily come up with something that would work in your space.

I actually want the roots to become bound because it will restrict the size of the plant. The roots sort of mirror what the top of the plant is doing. A wider container will make a plant branch out more.

Perhaps I'm not being realistic, but I'm hoping I can find a Sativa strain that when flowered asap from clone will stay within my 28 inch height limit so that I can maintain my SOG and keep my yield up. I'm just barely getting by the amount I use for the moment and a switch to a dominate sativa will give me lower yeilds and a longer flowering period. I'm pretty suborn about keeping it in this cab for the moment, but if anyone thinks this would be a lost cause I'll have to consider a grow tent or something.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Maybe hydro growers have different results so my 2 cents applies to soil grown haze in a micro setup.

Haze and some longer flowering sats don't typically have large buds. If you want the most for your efforts, a micro setup isn't the best unless you tweak the plant for best yield.

Although most haze varieties grow a load of lumber above the soil, root growth is probably less than the average variety in your stable. Flowering with minimal veg (or 12/12 form seed) doesn't always leave you with a container full of roots come harvest. More roots, more bud.

A couple of weeks additional veg time helps to have a full container of roots when chopped. It's easy to test two plants and see what I'm talking about. It's no revelation a plant allowed to veg longer will produce more but maximizing root growth in your container is key. The plant with longer veg time will obviously pose problems in a micro grow if not trimmed. If you're growing a sog, you can typically trim the plant to 4" (sometimes a little shorter) and still have a 15 to 18 inch stalk come harvest, sometimes taller.

Time is a factor and I can see growers not loving the idea of vegging longer than usual. It's just a matter of preference, saving time or increasing yield. If you're willing to wait an additional amount of flower time for that unique haze/sativa, a bit of extra veg (even if you have to trim most of it off, lol) is your friend.

Another trick is to make sure the soil gets dry before next water. I know everybody does this but these varieties especially will thank you for it.

 

[jawnroot]

I will be looking into this. I did some reading it on it already and apparently it's got some some copper chemical in it that makes the root tips die off when it touches them.

It's just a micronutrient slurry with a bias toward copper. It doesn't so much make the root tips die as retard their growth, encouraging root branching.

Regarding the copper/inorganic issue, there's nothing in MicroKote that you wouldn't find in any nutrient mix. The ratios are adjusted to encourage root tip dormancy, which in turn encourages a hormonal reaction in plants to branch out their roots.

Have you emailed yourself and they sent you a quart sized container? If they are the only one selling it they must have the rights to it which means its patented because it works.

Yup. The quart size was something like $15 if I remember correctly, but you have to email the store and specifically request it.

Stuff works exactly as advertised. I've been using it a few years now on all kinds of plants (not just MJ) with great results.

If it's good as advertised I'm not sure why I haven't heard much about. I'm sure many folks are irrationally afraid of it being non-organic or maybe it works so good it's a secret.

The vast majority of hobby gardeners (in general, not just MJ) don't know what root binding is. Those that do just assume upcanning is the solution, and it is. For those that can keep on transplanting, rootbinding and medium usage/efficiency is never an issue. But for us micro growers, we need to make as much use of vertical space as possible, which means smaller pots, which means using as much of the medium as possible.

Indeed, MicroKote was designed from the ground up for nursery plants that would end up staying in the same pot for a very long time. Nurseries, for cost and labor reasons, generally never upcan after getting plants from the wholesaler. This is why most of the stuff you get from them is viciously root bound (think mature flowers in cell flats). MicroKote is the answer to that problem.

So in other words, MicroKote is a niche product, which is why the vast majority of the growing public has never heard of it.

I would never ship a box to my current location with the words horticulture on it and I'm paranoid of asking them to ship discretely. Soon as I can make some arrangements I'll try and get my hands on this stuff. I'm very curious to how it would work micro growing. Thanks again.

I've ordered several times from H.S., and every time it was in a plain brown box. Never an insignia or anything like that on the box. The return addy had the owner's first and last name, not the business name.

What size containers did you use?

I go from 10oz plastic cups to 5.25" square pots, to 2 gallon nursery containers (actual volume 1.6 gallons). All were treated with MicroKote. You get the best results from starting with MicroKote as early as possible. I germinate in the 10oz cups, so from day one they're microkoted.

I actually want the roots to become bound because it will restrict the size of the plant. The roots sort of mirror what the top of the plant is doing. A wider container will make a plant branch out more.

In my experience, severe root binding can actually make a plant stretch, and will end up causing nute and other issues. That said, my experience with binding has been limited and anecdotal.

MicroKote won't turn a 16oz cup into a five gallon pot. Once the roots utilize all the medium they can (which will happen fast in a 16oz cup), the plant's growth will slow. But the root mass will be in the soil, not spinning around the pot. So it will be able to better absorb and utilize water and nutes, thus increasing yeild (if that makes sense). At the very least, I think it would be worth it in your situation to do a side by side with MicroKote to see if you derive any benefit from it.

Perhaps I'm not being realistic, but I'm hoping I can find a Sativa strain that when flowered asap from clone will stay within my 28 inch height limit so that I can maintain my SOG and keep my yield up. I'm just barely getting by the amount I use for the moment and a switch to a dominate sativa will give me lower yeilds and a longer flowering period. I'm pretty suborn about keeping it in this cab for the moment, but if anyone thinks this would be a lost cause I'll have to consider a grow tent or something.

I don't have much experience growing full blooded sativas, but from what I gather they can quadruple in size once flowering is initiated. So if you flower when they're 6" or shorter, they should stay within your height requirements.

Good luck with it. Keep us posted on the progress.

 

[TraneRek]

jawnroot,
Will one coat last multiple grows, or do you have to re-apply every so often?

-Rek

 

[jawnroot]

jawnroot,
Will one coat last multiple grows, or do you have to re-apply every so often?

-Rek

It lasts for quite a long time. I'm still on my original coats after a year and a half. You just look at your soil when you pull the rootball out. All you should see is bare soil (because the roots stay about 1mm in from the wall of the pot). Once you start seeing roots pushing to the edge, it's time to reapply. At the rate I'm going, I imagine I'll lose or break the pots before I need a fresh coat.

For the average grower, one quart is probably enough to last a lifetime, provided you take good care of your containers.

 

[catman]

Yup. The quart size was something like $15 if I remember correctly, but you have to email the store and specifically request it.


I've ordered several times from H.S., and every time it was in a plain brown box. Never an insignia or anything like that on the box. The return addy had the owner's first and last name, not the business name.

Awesome. Thanks again.

In my experience, severe root binding can actually make a plant stretch, and will end up causing nute and other issues. That said, my experience with binding has been limited and anecdotal.

I don't have much experience. All I know is I flowered 3 different strains approximately the same size in veg and they stetched and overall grew more in the 2L than the 16oz cups.

I don't have much experience growing full blooded sativas, but from what I gather they can quadruple in size once flowering is initiated. So if you flower when they're 6" or shorter, they should stay within your height requirements.

Good luck with it. Keep us posted on the progress.

I don't think the whole "multiple plant size by x" applies to small veg plants. I've grown an indica dominant Northern lights that was less than 6'' going into 12/12, but finished near 3ft. I don't mind a little trial and error anyway.

I sure will. This could start a mini micro grow revolution.

 

[jgrow]

How much penetration do these 150s have? What height plants work best around 20" smaller, bigger?

 

[vintner]

Try 12" jgrow Beyond that most everything is popcorn bud. That's why most that uses a 150 do some sort of training. LST, scrog, v-scrog...

 

[jawnroot]

How much penetration do these 150s have? What height plants work best around 20" smaller, bigger?

Click on the following penetration chart and take a look:



How much usable light you get depends upon how close you get them to the lamp. 4" away is not at all unreasonable for a 150, even with a bare bulb/open fixture. According to the chart, you're getting intense light from 4" to 12", or eight inches of intense penetration. That's more than enough to develop a nice, tight top cola. Most of your weight (and all of the quality buds) will be in this 8" to 12". Between 1/4 and 1 oz (strain/condition dependent), just in the cola. The potential exists for more or less, depending upon the variables.

From there, I'd say you have another 5" of secondary light, and maybe 5" of shadow-level illumination after that, with 1/8 to 1/4 oz of small buds, popcorn, and trim on top of the cola nugs. So 8" of primary, 5" of secondary, and 5" of supplementary light.

In short, you'll probably get usable bud off the full length of a 20" plant, but the last 8" to 10" is going to be popcorn and crystal trim. That stuff is still very smokeable and quality; I generally break it up and roll it into blunts for when I'm having company (save the cola nugs for the personal stash ).

A little tip that I've seen yield results: if you have multiple plants staggered underneath the light, rotate them one spot every day. This will give the entire plant an even amount of illumination over the course of the grow, and will net you a little extra in most cases. This is easier to illustrate in pic form:

Make sure to keep the sides of the pot facing in the same direction (illustrated by the dot and "north" in the image), or the purpose of rotation is more or less defeated. The rotation scheme goes as follows:

On Monday (for example), plant one goes to plant two's spot, plant two goes to plant four's spot, plant four goes to plant three's spot, and plant three goes to plant one's spot. By Thursday, the plants will be back in their original orientation. The process repeats and repeats until harvest.

 

[Pipedream]

.

A Happy and Healthy one to all
One Love, Pipedream​

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Back at ya, PD!

 

[jgrow]

Thanks vinter and jawnroot!!!! I'm thinking about maybe doing a sog style grow with 3x150 watters, what is the light foot print on one of these, I'm not even sure the dimensions of a cab i would do, maybe some sort of rectangular shaped cab thats like 4x2x4(lxwxh), these are my initial thoughts on a new set up. I figure after a few trial runs and with the right strain i could harvest a qp from each light, id probably be going from clone rather than seed. Id really love to see the pull potential with these lights, i was reading some where and this guy pulled over a pound of 420 watts of cfl. Im thinking the same results could be had with these small hids

 

[vintner]

Well, the general rule of thumb is 50watts/sq ft, so a 150 can give pretty good coverage over an area ~ 21"sq. In the space you mentioned, you could easily put two 150's and supplement w/cfl's around the ends. Yes, w/good environment and care it's easy to pull 4-5oz from a 150.

 

[jgrow]

My goals are to be able to harvest once a month, getting 6-8 zips a month, does this sounds reasonable, 8 plants per light sog style, with lst training? Im not a total newb just with sog, not sure how many plants to put under there. Some guy has like 72 under 420 watts of cfls and he was pulling over a pound.

 

[Castelvetro]

jgrow id like to see the pound with just two of them, 300watts, vertical circular style, 16 plants around each light, im not sure if im the guy to achieve this right now but it possible in my belief-

 

[Inverted]

A little update

A little update

Day 32 Flower

I have a PH/Lockout problem with one of them. It's very sensitive and I don't take much liking to it very much, although it has started budding just a little late.

My all clone SOG after this run is going to yield much better.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

clean, green and frosty, Inverted.