1.8lb+ per light vert tree grow?

[Shafto]

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Personally I run bare vert, I would never use a reflector as If I do.. and I have tried..
I have to DBL my bulb distance... So the lumen loss from going 8 inches away with a 600..
to 16 inches away.. is huge....

I got these images from our Vert section, I believe these images were from Krusty... I might stand corrected as
im not 100% on this...

But honestly for me the heat gain and lumen loss isint worth the little light reflecting... It just is not making sence.

That diagram is flawed. Radiant heat does not go up, it radiates out in all directions just as the light does. Heat is conducted out of the bulb around it into the air which travels upward, and by air cooling you can remove more of this conducted heat, but heat is still radiated out in all the same directions and varying intensities as the light is, regardless.

When using a reflector some of this radiant heat is absorbed into the reflector, but most is reflected back at the plants, which is a consequence of reflecting the light from a high infra-red light source like HPS, and has absolutely nothing to do with a reflector.

If air cooling is used the reflector will heat up from the radiant heat absorbed, and the conducted heat that convected upward through the air and into the reflector. Using air movement with either a sealed hood or bare bulb reflector easily removes this heat into the air to be exhausted. There is no more heat conducted or radiated in either setup, only that using a reflector causes much more light intensity, and heat intensity that comes along with HPS lighting.

Saying that a reflector kills a bulb is nonsensual rubbish. They are designed to run at high temp in enclosed, non air cooled fixtures for commercial use. Cooling your bulb too much will actually cause it to run dimmer, as the lower temperature will lower the voltage across the arc, and less power will be expended in the bulb.

Just one more time for the record, a reflector does not create heat, in any way, shape, or form.

 

[DHF]

For the record....Getchas a digital light meter and hand held laser thermometer , then come post your findings compared to lumenloss and heatgain from the reflectors Shafto..... or better yet....

Just prove me wrong with scientific data NOT from hydro equipment manufacturers........

I stand by makin each room it`s own air-cooled reflector with bare bulbs hangin and everything covered in reflectix that`s not green ftw.....and hey.....

With bare bulbs runnin small muffin fans on low speed under the bulbs, cuz Heat does NOT radiate outward , but rather upward with natural convection to be sucked out from exhaust/scrubber combo`s to the tune of room air exchanged twice per minute.....

Cuz as you stated above.......heat rises naturally , but would NEVER radiate outwardly without the stored heatgain from reflectors , so don`t dig yourself in any deeper than you have........

I`ve got MANY growbro`s in medville that roll with air-cooled and non-air-cooled parabolic reflectors with horizontal setups , and recently have witnessed a few PPK`ers that`ve employed adjusta-wings above their big plants from seein it at the farm.......and.....

All things come to pass......I assure you that HL 45 , Disciple , Ashes, and Delta 9 will avail yas to the light setups they`re runnin now......

Shafto.....Noone here is attacking you or your setup.....We welcome you here.....but......

Bare bulbs rule and all else drool......I tried cooltubes once....I ran 400 watt reflectors for my veg plants back in my krusty bucket days......

What you`re claming is ludicrous , but you`re entitled to your opinion and I respect that......

Knowledge is power.....Ignorance and bad info is everywhere....Try to be more open-minded .......

Peace....DHF.........

 

[astartes]

I think shafto's main point that a reflector doesn't create additional heat is valid. Rather a bare vert bulb is simply much more efficient at dissipating heat via convection as DHF said. The room may get hotter with a hood and you'll feel the radiant heat more. That doesn't mean more heat is being created, but that the natural orientation of most hoods aren't efficient in dissipating the heat produced from a bulb.

a.

 

[St3ve]

I tried vertical for two runs and decided to go back to horizontal because I didn't have the room to work on the plants and canopy so I didn't get ANY increase in yield.. in fact, mine went down. But again.. I could not manage the canopy as required.

So for comparison, I have the same room, same fans, same bulbs, and same setup.. only thing that was different was a vert bulb with 16 taller plants, or a horizontal bulb with 40 shorter plants in a cheapy NON-aircooled hood.

MY personal findings:
My ROOM temps were the same in both.. however I found that my leaf temp/canopy is actually LOWER with the horizontal setup. What I noticed is.. because I grew the plants shorter and stockier, they were closer to the ground where the air is cooler. The bulb is much higher over the plant tops in the hood so the heat went directly away from the plants instead of rising up heating up the tops.

Additionally.. because of the reflected light being more intense than the bulb only light, I was able to keep the hood/bulb a little further away from the plants to achieve the same lumens, thus further lowering the leaf temp. (yes I have a light meter and laser thermometer)

cons: not as much available canopy as compared to vert. HOwever for me, I don't have the space to manage a thick canopy full of budsites so I was not fully utilizing the main benefit. IF I ever get the opportunity to grow legally, I will without a doubt grow trees in a bigger space with vert bulbs on three sides. In the meantime though, I will stick with my 40 plants under two horizontal (non air cooled) hoods. I can consistently push 4# with 2k and I barely hit 2# with vert. If you're going to do a donut, you MUST manage that canopy or you're just missing out.

I might add, I've also ran TWO different kinds of aircooled hoods with glass. I find that the glass does get hot which radiates and is NOT as beneficial as I thought it would be. So, I decided to ditch the glass in the hoods and just just run fan extraction and temps are the same, without lumen loss and extra ducting.

DISCLAIMER: These are MY findings with MY equipment.. YMMV

 

[DHF]

Increased plant numbers dictate yield St3ve as you`ve demonstrated with your 40 plants under 2-1 KW`s compared to your vert attempts....but....

Your Vert attempts weren`t typical with a well established sideways canopy so the learning curve from flat grows to vertical bare bulbs exists , but rest assured it`s doable and being done regularly at many places.....just not here....well...

There`s some folks here that get it....anyways.....

Shafto....Good luck and wishin fer big harveys fer yas.....

Peace....DHF.........

 

[Shafto]

For the record....Getchas a digital light meter and hand held laser thermometer , then come post your findings compared to lumenloss and heatgain from the reflectors Shafto..... or better yet....

DHF, I have more than one of each, some quite sophisticated.

With bare bulbs runnin small muffin fans on low speed under the bulbs, cuz Heat does NOT radiate outward , but rather upward with natural convection to be sucked out from exhaust/scrubber combo`s to the tune of room air exchanged twice per minute.....

Cuz as you stated above.......heat rises naturally , but would NEVER radiate outwardly without the stored heatgain from reflectors , so don`t dig yourself in any deeper than you have........

This is false information. Heat radiated from an HPS bulb is radiation in the 700ish+ nanometer area. This heat is similar to light, it's called infrared, and no amount of airflow will really change it. By using airflow to lower temp of parts of the bulb they will naturally absorb slightly more infrared, but this is a slight amount, most of the heat removed by airflow is the very small percent of heat that is wasted by conduction. I am not stressing this to try to throw it in your face DHF, I must again restate for the sake of not misinforming that radiated heat (infrared) acts as light does, and radiates outwards, (basically) regardless of airflow. It does not go upward, it has the same pattern and intensity as the light.

What you`re claming is ludicrous , but you`re entitled to your opinion and I respect that......

Knowledge is power.....Ignorance and bad info is everywhere....Try to be more open-minded .......

Your claims are based on grow folklore from you and your heroes Krusty and Heath, no disrespect to either of them, or you, but you are the one lacking science my friend.

Increased plant numbers dictate yield St3ve as you`ve demonstrated with your 40 plants under 2-1 KW`s compared to your vert attempts....but....

Another false statement according to my data. Illuminated canopy surface area dictates yield, which makes perfect sense if you think about it.

There`s some folks here that get it....anyways.....

Peace....DHF.........

Certainly the truth.


DHF, I hate to sound like the douchebag trying to substantiate them self on the internet, but I work with light professionally. I run my own little biz evaluating LED products before they go to market. I do all kinda tests and offer consultation for upgrades and such. You can find some of my more scientifically in depth posts in the lighting forum, mostly on LEDs.

I think it's great whatever you did back in the day worked so well for you that you are incessantly adamant that I am wrong because I'm not doing it just like you did, but I can assure you DHF, when it comes to lighting and engineering, I got it covered.

What I'm learning about is chemistry with nutes, which comes half naturally, but more so learning to read the plant and figuring out how to look for good genetics and such. The plants are my learning curve. I do appreciate your concern though.

 

[St3ve]

Your Vert attempts weren`t typical with a well established sideways canopy so the learning curve from flat grows to vertical bare bulbs exists , but rest assured it`s doable and being done regularly at many places.

Trudat.. definitely a learning curve when it comes to effectively managing the sideways canopy with a donut. I could barely get around the room much less get in there to really maximize the budsites. Much much harder for me.

 

[DHF]

Sounds like you have all the answers Shafto.....but....It also sounds like you sell equipment for a living.....

I only know what worked for me buncha yrs and all the nanometer readings you claim mean dick to what rocks GPW`s IME.....but....

Everyone`s research and findings can`t be "flawed" just cuz your findings are supposed ta stand when I know better .......

I don`t deal with light......I grew under it and all around it....for many yrs....

High tech Redneck over here dewd....Ain`t backin down from what I know to be optimal and practical application for max results....

Sounds like you`ve got an axe to grind , and tryin to sell new equipment that`s bigger and better than the time tested and proven products....

No more from me....Results are results.....Deal with it.....

DHF.........

 

[Shafto]

DHF I've been as cordial with you as can be, but now you're completing insulting me, as if I'm some kind of shill.

You are out of line and completely off your rocker old man.

DHF you don't take readings with a nanometer, a nanometer is a unit of measurement. 700 nanometers being the distance between wavelengths of light approaching infrared, green light is around 555 nanometer, blue is down around 450nm, UV is down under 400, then you have microwaves and xray and gamma and all the other types of non-visual radiation. You have to actually understand these things before you try to give me advice. I think what you were referring to was a manometer, which I built to measure the static pressure in the HVAC system, and has nothing to do with this thread. It's clear you have a comprehension problem when things get scientific. It probably frustrates you and you lash out a bit and banter on about all your experience, I really don't care.

Your last few posts in this thread are despicable.

You have no stake in my grow or what I'm doing, so how about do me a favour and just keep your bullshit folklore outa my threads, mmmk? I think myself and everyone else on this website knows where you stand on things... as you incessantly repeat the same crap over and over... and over...

No more from me....
DHF.........

You've said that about 5 times previous.. please let it be true this time.

 

[Shafto]

Double post.

 

[FlowerFarmer]

Trudat.. definitely a learning curve when it comes to effectively managing the sideways canopy with a donut. I could barely get around the room much less get in there to really maximize the budsites. Much much harder for me.

I hear yea.. struggled with my 1st few vertical "donuts" myself. Even to the point where I'm contemplated going back to horizontal to just trellis the crop and call it done.

But.. the results speak for themselves.. I have to grow vert to get decent yields. I have noticed that donuts can be quite deceiving in what ya think ya got.

I was averaging a poor 13-16ounces per 1k horizontal in Daystar AC..even after nearly 10 years of growing
1st grow donut - 1.4lb per 1k
2nd grow donut - 1.7lb per 1k
I've set up friends with vertical donuts that have never grown anything in their life and they are now over 2lbs per 1k! They are not green thumbs.. they merely follow some simple instructions using head recipe/silica/bloombastic.

It is a pain trying to slide around the room though.. I can no longer tend to anything unless its end of day, etc because there is no way to tend without brushing up against and stinking bad.



Shafto.. check my sig for a basic no frills grow that netted me 1.7 per light. 5000w.. 4 of which had rings of plants around them..1k illuminating the backsides of the 4 donuts. Certainly with some more dialage 2+ is peanuts..I've got some dark corners with no lights, etc.. and yields are still amazing... for me at least. In efforts to decrease plant numbers I'm now trying the tree thing..with 1 plant always having at least 3 bulbs around it. Should be fun.

 

[DHF]

I hear yea.. struggled with my 1st few vertical "donuts" myself. Even to the point where I'm contemplated going back to horizontal to just trellis the crop and call it done.

But.. the results speak for themselves.. I have to grow vert to get decent yields. I have noticed that donuts can be quite deceiving in what ya think ya got.

I was averaging a poor 13-16ounces per 1k horizontal in Daystar AC..even after nearly 10 years of growing
1st grow donut - 1.4lb per 1k
2nd grow donut - 1.7lb per 1k
I've set up friends with vertical donuts that have never grown anything in their life and they are now over 2lbs per 1k! They are not green thumbs.. they merely follow some simple instructions using head recipe/silica/bloombastic.

It is a pain trying to slide around the room though.. I can no longer tend to anything unless its end of day, etc because there is no way to tend without brushing up against and stinking bad.



Shafto.. check my sig for a basic no frills grow that netted me 1.7 per light. 5000w.. 4 of which had rings of plants around them..1k illuminating the backsides of the 4 donuts. Certainly with some more dialage 2+ is peanuts..I've got some dark corners with no lights, etc.. and yields are still amazing... for me at least. In efforts to decrease plant numbers I'm now trying the tree thing..with 1 plant always having at least 3 bulbs around it. Should be fun.

I rest my case and slam the gavel down cuz proof`s in the puddin..........and Shafto.....

You type like you know what you`re talkin about......but yet......You still refuse to support your theories with proof.......as in results.....

1.8 lbs per 1KW`s babyshit once dialed with bare bulbs hangin....I`ll stay outa your thread cuz I`m supposedly despicable in your eyes , but......

I assure you that you don`t have a leg to stand on down here in vertical bare bulb category trying to convince folks what you`re doing is the way , truth , and light for growin dope because you have heat holding , light losing domes over your plants ....

I`m sure you`re gettin better results in big rooms from all the lumenloss from the get in bigger rooms , but don`t try and shove shit down our throat cuz you say it`s so.....and for the record.....

You`ve not been cordial but rather antagonistic , so please don`t be so full of yourself....anyways......

I wish yas nothin but long hauls and big harveys.....

Peace....DHF........

 

[Guest 150314]

DHF, I dont see how shafto is trying to convince anyone the way hes doing things is the be all and end all, that seems to be your prerogative. You cant seem to handle anyone challenging the way you did things and your school of thought on vertical growing.

Thats great that you had success with your method in your 5 bulb rooms, the thing is people have different scenarios and when you are trying to make the most of a low plant count in a huge facility I have always seen benefit from adding a few horizontal bulbs, even if your right and reflectors are heat holding light losing domes the xtra pounds will make up for that.

and have to say this, flower farmer your vert doughnut room is awesome, clean and simple and that weight is respectable but if you had been growing 10 years and could not push 2 pounds per light horizontal you were probably doing something wrong. i used to rock daystars with the glass removed and was hitting 1.2 per 600w without a sealed room everytime

 

[FlowerFarmer]

and have to say this, flower farmer your vert doughnut room is awesome, clean and simple and that weight is respectable but if you had been growing 10 years and could not push 2 pounds per light horizontal you were probably doing something wrong. i used to rock daystars with the glass removed and was hitting 1.2 per 600w without a sealed room everytime

Appreciate it man. No idea why I couldn't make horizontal work for me.. I suck at yielding when growing horizontally. Not pushing the envelope vertically either, but much better yields compared to what I was doing with Daystar ACs w/ anywhere from 9-12 plants per 1k. (not to say Daystar AC aren't badass little reflectors)

My yields were piss poor horizontally and I couldn't tell you why. Lots of massive looking harvests taken from start to finish with no illness, severe climate issues, etc. The bone dry numbers would just never add up. I will say however that while I've grown nearly non-stop for such a time it was never really back to back dialed shit... Many times it'd be 2 grows.. tear down.. re-setup different, 1 grow.. tear down.. move..change setup.. 2 more.. Never really got the chance to really buckle down and crop consistently at the same spot while working out the kinks. <- so yea.. I'll blame my decade of low yields on this.. lol

I'll never claim I'm a great grower, but do normally know what I'm doing and my grows always look impressive to me.. Here is a shot of some of my older work. 9 600w lights.... end numbers..bone dry no lie..embarrassing. 6ish or so off of 5400w. ??

I cant really say my method has changed.. I keep it simple and typically run lucas/head in coco with pk booster. This room might have been flood buckets.. but even between flood buckets and coco my yields were poor... about 1-1.5lb per 1k depending on strain. 1.5lb was even rare.. I wont lie. Good producing cuts too that others do good with.

I'm hopefully looking to break the 2lb per 1k barrier now that I'm vertical. Little bit of dialin' and now I've got split cooling power.. skys the limit.. but going bare bulb drop has drastically changed the number I put down without any real change to my method or tactics. That says something to me.. I'm sticking with vertical.

Were all on the same team fellas..
Many ways to get the job done.. do what you do Shafto..

 

[Mister_D]

Shafto - Since you're up on the science end of things, I would like you to explain something to me. If infrared heat from a bulb spreads just like normal light, and according to you as a result, isn't effected by a fan. Explain to me why it is when I turn the fan that blows upwards over my vert bulb off, I can't hold my hand comfortably with 12" of my bulb. Yet with the fan on I can comfortably hold my hand within 5" of the bulb? It's kind of a rhetorical question. I've worked in the lighting industry for over 20 years, and if you really understood how light functions you'd drop those worthless reflectors and go bare bulb. So instead of sounding like a well worded idiot while you try and argue against the laws of physics, why don't you go study so you have relevant argument. Not trying to attack ya, and neither is freds. Both of us know what we are talking about from direct experience, and i've done the book work to understand the why's of what works. Quantum physics of light is a good subject to start with

 

[FlowerFarmer]

Shafto - Since you're up on the science end of things, I would like you to explain something to me. If infrared heat from a bulb spreads just like normal light, and according to you as a result, isn't effected by a fan. Explain to me why it is when I turn the fan that blows upwards over my vert bulb off, I can't hold my hand comfortably with 12" of my bulb. Yet with the fan on I can comfortably hold my hand within 5" of the bulb? It's kind of a rhetorical question. I've worked in the lighting industry for over 20 years, and if you really understood how light functions you'd drop those worthless reflectors and go bare bulb. So instead of sounding like a well worded idiot while you try and argue against the laws of physics, why don't you go study so you have relevant argument. Not trying to attack ya, and neither is freds. Both of us know what we are talking about from direct experience, and i've done the book work to understand the why's of what works. Quantum physics of light is a good subject to start with

He is going bare bulb.. just with the addition of horizontals over the plant itself...which hang in diamond pattern to the vertical lamps dropped between the trees. Vertical light on the side of the plant.. horizontal light on the top of the shrub....Doesn't sound like a bad idea to me.


Dont see what the big argument is about... I agree the shields trap some heat at canopy level, but who cares if you can handle it?
Are you guys saying the additional lights horizontally over a regular tree shrub vertical room isnt going to equate to more lbs?

Not necessary/super efficient?..sure.. But certainly no harm done adding more light in addition to the vertical drops.

 

[Shafto]

Shafto - Since you're up on the science end of things, I would like you to explain something to me. If infrared heat from a bulb spreads just like normal light, and according to you as a result, isn't effected by a fan. Explain to me why it is when I turn the fan that blows upwards over my vert bulb off, I can't hold my hand comfortably with 12" of my bulb. Yet with the fan on I can comfortably hold my hand within 5" of the bulb? It's kind of a rhetorical question. I've worked in the lighting industry for over 20 years, and if you really understood how light functions you'd drop those worthless reflectors and go bare bulb. So instead of sounding like a well worded idiot while you try and argue against the laws of physics, why don't you go study so you have relevant argument. Not trying to attack ya, and neither is freds. Both of us know what we are talking about from direct experience, and i've done the book work to understand the why's of what works. Quantum physics of light is a good subject to start with

I have bare bulbs hanging too with 135 CFM fans under each one, though when I move the fan away I don't notice the massive difference in heat on my hand you are describing.

There is a difference though, due to a couple reasons, one I already explained, that there is some conductive heat created by the bulb that you are removing, also some IR heat hits the glass, is absorbed, and removed with airflow.

The bigger reason though? Simple, the IR heat hitting your hand is also absorbed, which makes your hand hot, the moving air from the fan removes this heat from your hand, and it doesn't feel as hot. Same thing as feeling a cool breeze when you're in the hot sun. Same amount of IR heat hitting you from the sun (which travels here with the light) but the moving air cools you off and removes heat.

It's not a rhetorical question at all, it just had an answer that you weren't privy to, Mr.D.

You can quiz me on lighting all day long my friend. Gives me a good laugh when someone who grows pot thinks they're a lighting professional. Meanwhile I'll head back down to my shop to check on my CNC router that's currently cutting out a multi-diode total internal refraction optic that I designed for some pier lighting here in town.



P.S. Please feel free to point out where exactly I was arguing against the laws of physics.. I really am quite curious, quote me and explain yourself concisely.

 

[zor]

shafto, thanks for sharing this info, despite the resultant shitstorm for sharing your methods.

it makes perfect sense to me. I have had good results from both horizontal and vertical setups) and therefore, do not believe that one is always better than the other) and its cool to see your hybrid method working for you. rock on.

 

[HempKat]

You guys are all well beyond me with multiple lights and all but one thing I've come to learn over the years is that there is no one right way to doing any of this stuff. Growing is more then just about maximum efficiency or getting the most bang for your lumens. Those are important considerations no doubt, but equally important is what the grower is most comfortable with even if what makes them comfortable might not be technically the best.

 

[Incognegro]

DHF, You cant seem to handle anyone challenging the way you did things and your school of thought on vertical growing.

Thats great that you had success with your method in your 5 bulb rooms, the thing is people have different scenarios and when you are trying to make the most of a low plant count in a huge facility I have always seen benefit from adding a few horizontal bulbs, even if your right and reflectors are heat holding light losing domes the xtra pounds will make up for that.

WOW!! All these years, i thought I was the only one who figured this out... thank you GreenMango... someone else with sense