G
Guest 150314
1.8 per light is great, you know your current set up and it works for you well so expand on it.
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1.8lb+ per light vert tree grow?
- Thread starter Shafto
- Start date
Missed your request there Shafto. I know you mentioned Heath's grows so I'm sure you've seen this before, but might be worth another read if you want to refresh yourself of the benefits of vert grows.
Can't argue with 50oz + per tree using 900W of vert bulbage
Think that was in a 12' x 11'.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=181239
The build went well, everything is in full swing now.
11 days into flower, loving the hybrid system.
Glad I went with reflectors overhead. They're so tall if they only had vertical 1000's they'd either have no light on top or bottom depending on where I put the bulb. They're 5 feet wide, over 5 feet tall. Each girl is drinking 20-25 litres a day!
11 days into flower, loving the hybrid system.
Glad I went with reflectors overhead. They're so tall if they only had vertical 1000's they'd either have no light on top or bottom depending on where I put the bulb. They're 5 feet wide, over 5 feet tall. Each girl is drinking 20-25 litres a day!
250wscrogger
Active member
I'm hitting over 2lb per 1kw with stadium...2 shelves per side and big plants
We need some flowering pics of the new setup 
Since it's not just vertical, and it's about the grow now, not the design, I thought I'd make a new thread in the hydro section.
I put up some pics, new thread is here:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=243726
I put up some pics, new thread is here:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=243726
D
DHF
I grew 5' wide and 5- 6' tall plants with bare bulb 600`s hangin in the corners and a single 1000 watter in the middle with 4 plants receiving lumens from 3 bulbs at all times for a decade Shafto.....
If yas run the tips of the bulbs even with the tops of the plants till end of stretch , and then drop em down where the tops of the mogul socket/junction box till end of cycle.......
If yas got 50 watts per sq ft inside said grow area with reflectix on all walls and ceilings........I assure yas....
There`s no reason for horizontal reflectors on top of big plants when all that`s happenin is lumenloss directly above the plants while creating increased heatgain storage in the reflectors themselves that have to be compensated for in said room`s environment for total dialage IME........but.....
That`s what I`ve witnessed over the yrs with many many folks trying these hybrid lighting setups......but again......
Glad you`re diggin em and hope all works out for yas....1 thing though.....
Make sure yas open the plants up and get light down into the "innards" of the plants so yas don`t end up with bunches of underdeveloped popcorn that affects bottomline yields....
Good luck....DHF....
.....
If yas run the tips of the bulbs even with the tops of the plants till end of stretch , and then drop em down where the tops of the mogul socket/junction box till end of cycle.......
If yas got 50 watts per sq ft inside said grow area with reflectix on all walls and ceilings........I assure yas....
There`s no reason for horizontal reflectors on top of big plants when all that`s happenin is lumenloss directly above the plants while creating increased heatgain storage in the reflectors themselves that have to be compensated for in said room`s environment for total dialage IME........but.....
That`s what I`ve witnessed over the yrs with many many folks trying these hybrid lighting setups......but again......
Glad you`re diggin em and hope all works out for yas....1 thing though.....
Make sure yas open the plants up and get light down into the "innards" of the plants so yas don`t end up with bunches of underdeveloped popcorn that affects bottomline yields....
Good luck....DHF....
.....Once again I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on that aspect DHF. Reflectors do not create "lumenloss", they reflect light. I know you hate reflectors, but they do not create heat or a loss of light.
If you grew a 6 foot plant without light overhead, there's absolutely no way the 1000watt bulb would cover that top to bottom, and especially not the 600's, you'd need to stack two 600's to cover 6 feet effectively.
Room easily stays cool with 1400CFM exhaust and a passive intake, that's only once per minute, not twice as you preach. I understand you grew for a long time and I've heard many times what worked for you in your day, but that's not all that works my friend. With a 130CFM fan on every bulb and a total of over 4000CFM flowing to remove heat from objects and circulate air within the room, you don't to replace the air twice per minute, once is enough.
More than one way to grow a tree.
Been here on ICMag for 3 years longer than yourself, and I've never seen someone else try another lighting system like this, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there, do you have links?
If you run your vert bulbs so the junction box is even with the tops of the plants, then you have about 4-5 feet for that light to reach the bottom of the plants, that's not good enough for me. A 1000 should be placed to spread light 2.5' in all directions from centre at maximum, not 4-5 feet. You must have had leafy loose buds on the bottom of your plants, or maybe trimmed them I dunno. My 1000's are dropped right down to about middle of the plant, the entire side of the plants, top to bottom, is properly illuminated. That would leave the 4' diameter circle on top pretty lacking of light, but putting the 600 up there makes all the difference, and gets me right where I want to be for wattage in that size of room.
Telling me that taking lighting out of my room will make more light is ridiculous.
P.S. Take a look at the tops of my plants DHF, and tell me if it looks like lumen loss to you up there
D
DHF
I joined ICmag the first week it came online in `04 Shafto , but have deleted my account several times from gettin fed up with arguements from the kiddies that frequent the public forums.....and....
You`re entitled to your opinion , and far be it for me to dispute what you see workin for you......but....guaranteed....
Reflectors store heatgain and create lumenloss directly above each reflector , along with flexduct if air-cooled....so....
I`ll say this 1 more time and not post again cuz you disagree with me.....as long.....
As yas provide 50 watts per sq ft with everything that ain`t green covered in reflectix including the ceilings....Bare bulbs hangin in the proper spots down into the sideways canopy with the plants opened up and cleaned out for proper airflow and lumen absorption.......
There IS no reason for a reflector/light above the plants.....period...cuz I grew 5' wide and 6' tall plants for almost a decade with nothin but but donkey dick laterals and top colas runnin bare bulbs down amongst the plants ftw.. ......so....that said.....again....
As long as you feel like it`s increasin your bottom line , it`s your world and control your environment as you see fit....and hey....
Respect....no arguements from me Bro.....just fact....
Peace....DHF..........
You`re entitled to your opinion , and far be it for me to dispute what you see workin for you......but....guaranteed....
Reflectors store heatgain and create lumenloss directly above each reflector , along with flexduct if air-cooled....so....
I`ll say this 1 more time and not post again cuz you disagree with me.....as long.....
As yas provide 50 watts per sq ft with everything that ain`t green covered in reflectix including the ceilings....Bare bulbs hangin in the proper spots down into the sideways canopy with the plants opened up and cleaned out for proper airflow and lumen absorption.......
There IS no reason for a reflector/light above the plants.....period...cuz I grew 5' wide and 6' tall plants for almost a decade with nothin but but donkey dick laterals and top colas runnin bare bulbs down amongst the plants ftw.. ......so....that said.....again....
As long as you feel like it`s increasin your bottom line , it`s your world and control your environment as you see fit....and hey....
Respect....no arguements from me Bro.....just fact....
Peace....DHF....
......DHF, you need to understand that the entire reason for having a reflector is to reflect light that would hit the ceiling, back down to the plant. The entire reason for using one is make a dark spot above the reflector, it's dark above it because all of the light that would go up that way is reflected back at the plant, hence the name.
Lumenloss is a term you made up, and I don't mean this in a derogatory way, but you really do not understand the physical properties of light.
Using a reflector to reflect light more efficiently than for instance, the ceiling, will in fact create less heat, as the light is more efficiently reflected and not absorbed and converted to heat.
Reflectors do not create heat, they are not some kind of heat engine.
Those are facts, your grow folk lore is not.
Watts per sq ft means absolutely nothing when growing vertically. It's all about illuminated canopy surface area. You're telling me to remove 4200 watts from my room cause it's useless, and then make my room and plants smaller so that 8 1000's will add up to 50 watts per sq ft. Are you actually thinking about the things you're saying? That kind of talk is certifiably insane from an engineering standpoint.
Maybe you're completely misunderstanding what's going on here. I can't think of any other explanation. Did you look at the pics of the actual plants in the grow thread?
Lumenloss is a term you made up, and I don't mean this in a derogatory way, but you really do not understand the physical properties of light.
Using a reflector to reflect light more efficiently than for instance, the ceiling, will in fact create less heat, as the light is more efficiently reflected and not absorbed and converted to heat.
Reflectors do not create heat, they are not some kind of heat engine.
Those are facts, your grow folk lore is not.
Watts per sq ft means absolutely nothing when growing vertically. It's all about illuminated canopy surface area. You're telling me to remove 4200 watts from my room cause it's useless, and then make my room and plants smaller so that 8 1000's will add up to 50 watts per sq ft. Are you actually thinking about the things you're saying? That kind of talk is certifiably insane from an engineering standpoint.
Maybe you're completely misunderstanding what's going on here. I can't think of any other explanation. Did you look at the pics of the actual plants in the grow thread?
^ I'm with Shafto...I would not think of not running overhead reflectors in my vert setup. Any photon that does not strike a leaf is wasted. The sooner it strikes it the better. If a photon has to reflect once off a reflector to hit a plant when it otherwise would have to bounce 5-6 times or be totally dissipated first, then it's clear a reflector is beneficial. In actual use, it's clearly beneficial. The reflector allows better positioning of the light with respect to plant. You can tell with your own eyes it increases level of light shining on the leaves, especially the top of the plant. The plant stretches less, and yields more. My reflector is a big flat piece of foam board with a hole cut in the middle for the light to hang thru; very little heat is trapped there. In practice there is no downsides and all upsides. Reflectors are an absolute requirement IMO, unless one enjoys continually paying thousands of dollars worth of electricity to produce heat instead of smokable bud...
D
DHF
Ok.....There seems to be a misunderstanding about apples and oranges Shafto and GA.....
I`d NEVER ask yas to remove wattage from your grow area , but rather beg yas to make every lumen count.....and...
What`s wrong with stacked bare bulbs to take care of upper and lower levels if you`re concerned with lumen absorption in the lower extremeties of the plants.......
I`m just sayin....Not sure ya`ll are graspin what Im trying to get across as in reflectors cause problems in a dialed vertical bare bulb setup...guaranteed....Environment wise......
Have seen every light configuration and hybrid light setup known to God and man , and assure everyone that yas can do whatchas want , but all I`m tryin ta letchas know that it`s been done and found to be detrimental to the environmental control of said grow areas with no discernible advantages....
I just try ta save folks cash on power bills and unneeded bullshit...but.....Free will makes folks do what they do from their own opinions and thoughts regardless of time tested and proven situations....
If it works for you.....Handle it.....
Good luck....DHF.........
I`d NEVER ask yas to remove wattage from your grow area , but rather beg yas to make every lumen count.....and...
What`s wrong with stacked bare bulbs to take care of upper and lower levels if you`re concerned with lumen absorption in the lower extremeties of the plants.......
I`m just sayin....Not sure ya`ll are graspin what Im trying to get across as in reflectors cause problems in a dialed vertical bare bulb setup...guaranteed....Environment wise......
Have seen every light configuration and hybrid light setup known to God and man , and assure everyone that yas can do whatchas want , but all I`m tryin ta letchas know that it`s been done and found to be detrimental to the environmental control of said grow areas with no discernible advantages....
I just try ta save folks cash on power bills and unneeded bullshit...but.....Free will makes folks do what they do from their own opinions and thoughts regardless of time tested and proven situations....
If it works for you.....Handle it.....
Good luck....DHF....
.....Making every lumen count is exactly what I'm trying to do. I have a 135 CFM fan on each bulb, vert and reflector. The reflector is not storing heat, gaining heat, or causing any issue with environmental control.
As I mentioned earlier I'm only using 1400 CFM exhaust and the 1400 ft^3 room getting exchanged once per minute keeps it cool just fine. If you were to calculate watt per sq ft. based on floor area (which I think is irrelevant in any vertical setup) I have 65 watt per sq ft. which should make temps even harder to control than with 50, but, it works, because I spent a lot of time designing and calculating and trying to do the best job I can to fully engineer a controllable environment with a vented room. We had a heat wave where I live last week, friend of mine with a couple 12k rooms and a 13k room was turning off lights and scrambling to upgrade his air conditioned and vented rooms, and this is no hack, he's quite professional. My room sailed along without missing a beat, the 10K BTU A/C didn't even kick on. Only need that for vegging with longer lights on run into hot daytime hours in peak of summer.
I also went to that much care and detail in mapping out the light dispersion in the room and figuring out how to maximize my illuminated canopy area in the 17x11 space I have. There is nowhere else to hang bulbs with 7 plants, but I need more than 8000 watts, and thus I have reflectors adding more wattage for more yield. The tops of my plants are each a vertical scrog in themselves, adding to my yield over the Christmas tree like top of a plant grown only with vertical bulbs. I have cylinders compared to cones, more illuminated surface area for buds to grow. That is my logic.
I am confident that I could not have built this room much better for it's intended 7 plant purpose. Now to start the search for quality genetics, what i have is OK, but it's definitely nowhere near amazing for combining yield and quality. Might have to get some of those white fire seeds everyone seems to love lately.
As I mentioned earlier I'm only using 1400 CFM exhaust and the 1400 ft^3 room getting exchanged once per minute keeps it cool just fine. If you were to calculate watt per sq ft. based on floor area (which I think is irrelevant in any vertical setup) I have 65 watt per sq ft. which should make temps even harder to control than with 50, but, it works, because I spent a lot of time designing and calculating and trying to do the best job I can to fully engineer a controllable environment with a vented room. We had a heat wave where I live last week, friend of mine with a couple 12k rooms and a 13k room was turning off lights and scrambling to upgrade his air conditioned and vented rooms, and this is no hack, he's quite professional. My room sailed along without missing a beat, the 10K BTU A/C didn't even kick on. Only need that for vegging with longer lights on run into hot daytime hours in peak of summer.
I also went to that much care and detail in mapping out the light dispersion in the room and figuring out how to maximize my illuminated canopy area in the 17x11 space I have. There is nowhere else to hang bulbs with 7 plants, but I need more than 8000 watts, and thus I have reflectors adding more wattage for more yield. The tops of my plants are each a vertical scrog in themselves, adding to my yield over the Christmas tree like top of a plant grown only with vertical bulbs. I have cylinders compared to cones, more illuminated surface area for buds to grow. That is my logic.
I am confident that I could not have built this room much better for it's intended 7 plant purpose. Now to start the search for quality genetics, what i have is OK, but it's definitely nowhere near amazing for combining yield and quality. Might have to get some of those white fire seeds everyone seems to love lately.
D
DHF
Bro.....Got nuthin but respect and love for someone that puts as much thought and application into their setup Shafto....
Far be it for me to try and debunk your thoughts and the way you found to work for you......
All I do here is to try and dispell mistruth`s and bad advice cuz I`ve been there and done it......If I can ever help , please holler....
I`m around , retired , and bored to Hell.........so...that said....
Good luck and take care....DHF.....
........
Incognegro
Member
Lol, funny somebody else finally disagrees lol
But as a horti-verti covert myself, if proper placement of light is achieved, the plants don't need the overhead light. All the growth energy will be diverted and focused to side growth.
Sometimes, like i got a few now, a few will get too tall, and lean over the bulb, but no need to add supplemental overhead light.
But to each his/ her own... there's a lot of grow methods and applications i don't particularly agree with; but sometimes certain things work for some people and not others.... just a fact we've got to deal with...
Holla!
Oh btw, looks good man... looks good!
But as a horti-verti covert myself, if proper placement of light is achieved, the plants don't need the overhead light. All the growth energy will be diverted and focused to side growth.
Sometimes, like i got a few now, a few will get too tall, and lean over the bulb, but no need to add supplemental overhead light.
But to each his/ her own... there's a lot of grow methods and applications i don't particularly agree with; but sometimes certain things work for some people and not others.... just a fact we've got to deal with...
Holla!
Oh btw, looks good man... looks good!
KryptKeepa
Member
Personally I run bare vert, I would never use a reflector as If I do.. and I have tried..
I have to DBL my bulb distance... So the lumen loss from going 8 inches away with a 600..
to 16 inches away.. is huge....
I got these images from our Vert section, I believe these images were from Krusty... I might stand corrected as
im not 100% on this...
But honestly for me the heat gain and lumen loss isint worth the little light reflecting... It just is not making sence.
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KryptKeepa
Member
PPS: Light intensity with going from 8 inches with 600 (65k Inital Lumens)
to 16 inches... 16k Initial Lumens... I think your getting to see my point...
If your wondering where these numbers are coming from..
to 16 inches... 16k Initial Lumens... I think your getting to see my point...
If your wondering where these numbers are coming from..
