1.8lb+ per light vert tree grow?

[Shafto]

Hey Zamzia,

I definitely do want to be efficient with power, but I'm now more concerned with being efficient with space, as that is now my limiting factor.

For instance, I think that I would get more grams per watt if I just hung the 1000Ws in the vertical layout. By adding the 600Ws overhead I'll get more indeed, but it won't be a linear relationship. Adding more light will net you less and less per watt the more you add, but then you end up getting more for your given space.

I also forgot to mention (nobody asked yet) about my nutes. Just a plea to help save you guys some money who are buying that overpriced premixed liquid designer nute crap (in whatever form it is)... Stop!

Jacks hydroponic works just as well as anything else I've tried at a fraction of the price. a 25lb dry bag of Jack's 5-12-26 and a bag of Calcium nitrate 15-0-0 cost me $140 shipped to my door.

I mix 800 grams of the 5-12-26 into 3.5 litres of water in one of my old technaflora nute jugs. Then I mix up 536 grams of the 15-0-0 in another old nute jug.

The 5-12-26 works out to $5 a jug (compared to $30-35 for premixed nutes) and the 15-0-0 $3.30 per jug. I use about 1 whole jug of each on a grow, so I spend less than $10 on nutes each grow.

after you premix them at 800/536 grams for 3.5 litres of water you then just mix in equal parts like any other A&B formula and that's it... No calmag, no nothing else, other than some PH down every couple days.

Stop wasting money on nutes!

 

[zamzia]

Hi Shafto,

You're space is 12' x 16' though right? That is the space for allowed just flowering? Or do you have to split it? If you went, as suggested by DHF, with a Heath style tree grow that would be more than enough space to do the 600W vertical bare bulb 4 tree grow. One tree in every 2 weeks running perpetual? Just a suggestion. I REALLY want to try that out. I have something on the back burner at the moment, but it's defo on the list of things to do ;-)

Love the nutes tip. Bet none of that is available in the UK though! I am running Canna hydro nutes (A+B) at 1.2EC so not spending too much on nutes so far.

zamzia

 

[catalyte]

good discussion in here...

i think about this type of "dialling in" on the daily

 

[DHF]

You know....Saying what Heath uses in his setup`s isn`t really required to yield well is like fuckin yer sister.....

It just don`t work.....Especially talkin bout 10 week veg before pullin the trigger for another 10 weeks before harvey that only amounts to 9 lbs per yr instead of per month.....Horizontal......but....

I`m hopin yas just meant the 13 watt pump was all YOU needed for 1 plant and that makes better sense and far less offensive...so....

I`m here to help Bro if yas wanna go vertical bare bulbs and stay within plant number requirements/restraints cuz I help out at minimum 10 invite only med sites on the left coast and Canada plus here , so I know all about the cards required for X amounts of plants in veg and flower at all times....but...

Why use reflectors above each plant when all you`d be doin is storin heatgain right above the plants instead of letting normal convection take heat away from the plants and be sucked out by the scrubber combo`s.....

Bare bulbs rule....Cover everything in reflectix including the ceilings and go to work with 50 watts per sq ft and 3 bulbs hittin each plant at all times like my old Krusty bucket runs and yield accordingly.....

My 2 cents from all them yrs...DHF.........

 

[catalyte]

^ yah good call DHF. I would just make the room 100% reflective and they'll get light from the tops...

with 600's everywhere above them trees, the heat will no doubt have a harder time venting out of the room.....

 

[Shafto]

You know....Saying what Heath uses in his setup`s isn`t really required to yield well is like fuckin yer sister.....

It just don`t work.....Especially talkin bout 10 week veg before pullin the trigger for another 10 weeks before harvey that only amounts to 9 lbs per yr instead of per month.....Horizontal......but....

I`m hopin yas just meant the 13 watt pump was all YOU needed for 1 plant and that makes better sense and far less offensive...so....

I`m here to help Bro if yas wanna go vertical bare bulbs and stay within plant number requirements/restraints cuz I help out at minimum 10 invite only med sites on the left coast and Canada plus here , so I know all about the cards required for X amounts of plants in veg and flower at all times....but...

Why use reflectors above each plant when all you`d be doin is storin heatgain right above the plants instead of letting normal convection take heat away from the plants and be sucked out by the scrubber combo`s.....

Bare bulbs rule....Cover everything in reflectix including the ceilings and go to work with 50 watts per sq ft and 3 bulbs hittin each plant at all times like my old Krusty bucket runs and yield accordingly.....

My 2 cents from all them yrs...DHF.........

Hey DHF. I definitely never meant anything to be offensive to Heath, in my books he's the best grower I know of.

I have observed though, through trial, that more flow made no difference in plant growth in my situation. Going with extra doesn't hurt (except on heat and power use slightly), but it's not necessarily needed for the same results.

I am however using 4 top drains that each waterfall back into the main res, so more oxygenation with the same pump than you would get with bottom drains, because my water meets the air twice, once through the hydroton, and again as it drains back into the main res through the waterfalls.

Using a separate pump for each plant also allows you to use less wattage and heat your water less because it's just a straight shot to the plant. Using a manifold with valves to split the flow makes for a higher pressure system that is less efficient.

I'm already pretty set on the 600's overtop. I'll have lots of airflow to deal with the heat, as well as some AC for the summertime. I want to fit as much wattage as I can in the room, and the 600's overhead seem like the perfect way to add more light to the vertical 1000's. I did some more CAD stuff and the light distribution is going to be very good like this. I will probably train the plants more like cylinders than the Christmas trees shown, to gain more from the 600 overtop.

Initial harvest goal for the room will be 20lb. We'll see how it goes.

I have a little more than 12x16' for the flower room, I'm going to be putting up the walls and figure I'll make it about that size. I have a separate space for vegging.

I also run at 1.2EC, and you may not be able to get Jack's Zamzia, but I'm sure you can get some similar professional grade greenhouse hydroponic nutrients from an agricultural supply. All those nute companies do is buy in bulk from agricultural supply place, mix it up, bottle it, slap on a fancy label, write the marketing guy a cheque to do his thing, and watch the 700% profit margin roll in.

 

[zamzia]

Blimey! And I thought I was up late! (I realize your guys are all over the World ;-) )

DHF - I know where to come for advice when I want to try out the vert method then. I think it got to be one of the most efficient ways to grow from the threads I've seen.

Shafto - I'm not sure the supplementing of the lighting with horizontal lamps is really necessary. Like you said yourself, the extra gain in grow will be probably be mitigated by the extra cost (electric and heat). Whichever way you decide to go, I am interested to see how this pans out and as always I wish you luck with it.

zamzia

 

[Shafto]

Hey Zamzia, I'm still up too!

part of my reasoning behind the 600's overhead is that I have them already. The other part is that I want to have a similar amount of wattage as compared to the horizontal method I'm using now. If I transfer over the horizontal method I would use 12K. With the 7 plant vert I would use 8K.

I might get the same amount if my efficiency went way up from the vert setup, but then again maybe not. If I use 12,200W with the hybrid setup, I think I have a much better chance at getting the same, or quite possible even more per watt than I am now, while retaining nearly the same amount of wattage in the same space.

 

[HempKat]

I have to agree with your reasoning, with the illustration you made to go by it stands to reason the hybrid system will have the lumens (PAR) more spread out evenly over the canopy as opposed to 12 concentrated centers of roughly the same energy.

 

[DHF]

Well Hempkat.....I haveta respectfully disagree in that reflectors above plants with bare bulbs hangin down below the tops once stretch is over just simply aren`t needed if adaequate wattage is already present in the room with all surfaces covered in reflectix that takes care of all the lumen distributuion up , down , and all around the room....and again....

The reflectors will cause dead spots/lumenloss above each reflector as well as storing unnecessary heatgain in the room as I`ve already testified from first hand experience , not conjecture or hearsay....IOW....

This is prolly the 10th time I`ve seen folks try these "hybrid" systems growin big plants with bulbs and reflectors all over the room with less than sub par returns , but hey....

I respect your decision to go with the reflectors above each plant Shafto , cuz there`s no better wayta find out what`s NOT needed compared to what actually works with a lot less effort....See....

If you make the room itself it`s own air-cooled reflector with bare bulbs and reflectix , nothing else is needed with minimum 50 watts per sq ft cuz lumen absorption/penetration into the plants is already there with the bare bulbs blastin sideways.....I mean...

If yas already got the 600`s and wanna use em , why not just hang em bare bulbed above the plants with the 1000`s dropped down where the socket`s at the topsof the plants once stretch is over FTW.....

IF yas wanna add more wattage into the room that is....and....that way there`s no obstruction/obstacles for the light to travel around , above or below to get to the most important part of the room.....the plants....

Have yas ever noticed what horizontal grows look like ABOVE the reflectors ?...Pretty dark and shadowed up there right ?.......

Just tryin ta help Shafto , not hinder your projected plans cuz after all the bottom line is yield when it all boils down to it , and reflectors in a vertical bare bulb room just don`t work....period....

As stated above....I`ve seen what you`re gonna attempt on numerous occasions over the yrs and it`s just not necessary from the plants standpoint cuz the bare bulbs will provide all the sideways canopy lumens the plants require with adequate wattage guaranteed....but...

I`ll be over here on my bucket waitin ta see yas make things happen , so please start a thread and show us your progress and results regardless of returns cuz there`s a learning curve to every new setup , and once dialed EVERY setup gets better even with the limiting factors such as reflectors....

Good luck...DHF.........

 

[HempKat]

Well Hempkat.....I haveta respectfully disagree in that reflectors above plants with bare bulbs hangin down below the tops once stretch is over just simply aren`t needed if adaequate wattage is already present in the room with all surfaces covered in reflectix that takes care of all the lumen distributuion up , down , and all around the room....and again....

The reflectors will cause dead spots/lumenloss above each reflector as well as storing unnecessary heatgain in the room as I`ve already testified from first hand experience , not conjecture or hearsay....IOW....

This is prolly the 10th time I`ve seen folks try these "hybrid" systems growin big plants with bulbs and reflectors all over the room with less than sub par returns , but hey....

I respect your decision to go with the reflectors above each plant Shafto , cuz there`s no better wayta find out what`s NOT needed compared to what actually works with a lot less effort....See....

If you make the room itself it`s own air-cooled reflector with bare bulbs and reflectix , nothing else is needed with minimum 50 watts per sq ft cuz lumen absorption/penetration into the plants is already there with the bare bulbs blastin sideways.....I mean...

If yas already got the 600`s and wanna use em , why not just hang em bare bulbed above the plants with the 1000`s dropped down where the socket`s at the topsof the plants once stretch is over FTW.....

IF yas wanna add more wattage into the room that is....and....that way there`s no obstruction/obstacles for the light to travel around , above or below to get to the most important part of the room.....the plants....

Have yas ever noticed what horizontal grows look like ABOVE the reflectors ?...Pretty dark and shadowed up there right ?.......

Just tryin ta help Shafto , not hinder your projected plans cuz after all the bottom line is yield when it all boils down to it , and reflectors in a vertical bare bulb room just don`t work....period....

As stated above....I`ve seen what you`re gonna attempt on numerous occasions over the yrs and it`s just not necessary from the plants standpoint cuz the bare bulbs will provide all the sideways canopy lumens the plants require with adequate wattage guaranteed....but...

I`ll be over here on my bucket waitin ta see yas make things happen , so please start a thread and show us your progress and results regardless of returns cuz there`s a learning curve to every new setup , and once dialed EVERY setup gets better even with the limiting factors such as reflectors....

Good luck...DHF.........

Oay well you say you've got the experience with setups like this, I'll admit I don't, the most lights I've ever run in flower is two. I'll also point out though I wasn't saying it was the most efficient way to go. I was saying, to the point that shafto was making, that it stood to reason he'd get better results then 12 reflectors overhead (if he simply multiplied his current set up) because the energy available to the plants in the hybrid setup would be spread out more evenly since no movers appear involved. Even from your point of view his hybrid system should be better then 12 overhead reflectors because the hybrid uses fewer overhead reflectors, so less reflectors less heat.

Perhaps it's best to just make your point rather then trying to disagree with others when it isn't necessary?

 

[gingerale]

The reflectors will cause dead spots/lumenloss above each reflector as well as storing unnecessary heatgain in the room as I`ve already testified from first hand experience , not conjecture or hearsay....IOW....

My first hand experience (not conjecture or hearsay) tells me just the opposite.

No reflector in vert = lost efficiency.....period.

Just tryin ta help Shafto , not hinder your projected plans cuz after all the bottom line is yield when it all boils down to it , and reflectors in a vertical bare bulb room just don`t work....period....

Bullshit. Works fine in my room:

 

[DHF]

HK...I apologize for disagreeing with you when you were agreeing with Shafto about canopy coverage , cuz there is no downward horizontal canopy coverage with vertical grows.......

Everything`s "sideways" , and GA.....What`s your problem dewd......You say runnin reflectors in a vertical setup would increase efficiency.....first off ....How....and....

Second....Your opinion on what works in your little world is not what works across the board with 99% of everyone else`s findings over the yrs ......so....

Guaranteed....There`s not 1 thing you can call bullshit on this old ass , so what`s your point...

I already stated above Good luck to Shafto on his endeavors and hope things do well for him cuz he`ll find out first hand and that`s as it should be.....and ....

I apologized to HK for my mis perception of his post , but stand by every word I say......Lotta drama been happenin lately in the forums....

Sad to see it...GA....If you`ve got a problem with me , take it to pm cuz you don`t have a leg to stand on , so put up or shut up....and btw....

Didn`t you say you were runnin Stadium setups?........How the FUCK do you run reflectors with a stadium setup....Dewd....You`re trippin....and again....

Good luck Shafto....

Peace....DHF........

 

[gingerale]

Everything`s "sideways" , and GA.....What`s your problem dewd......You say runnin reflectors in a vertical setup would increase efficiency.....first off ....How...

There is a large amount of light which escapes and is lost without the reflector there. Adding the reflector brightens the tops of the plants considerably, and greatly reduces stretch tendencies. It's really quite obvious, and I'm not sure how you missed this in your own trials.

Second....Your opinion on what works in your little world is not what works across the board with 99% of everyone else`s findings over the yrs ......so....

Actually it's more like 70%.....I get plenty of positive rep and thoughtful PMs from people who agree with what I say, but get tired of posting up in the forums only to be blasted down by people who think they have it all figured out and nobody else can tell them differently...

Sad to see it...GA....If you`ve got a problem with me , take it to pm cuz you don`t have a leg to stand on , so put up or shut up....and btw....

The only one who seems to have a problem here is you... I don't see why you're being so defensive, and I'm not trying to be confrontational. Maybe you are just having a bad day or something.

Didn`t you say you were runnin Stadium setups?........How the FUCK do you run reflectors with a stadium setup....Dewd....You`re trippin....and again....

Did you not see the picture I just posted?

 

[Guest 150314]

i visit and work in dozens of large medical tree grows, they have all seen yield increases by using a mix of horizontal lights and vertical drop bulbs.

 

[DHF]

i visit and work in dozens of large medical tree grows, they have all seen yield increases by using a mix of horizontal lights and vertical drop bulbs.

A statement like that deems varification GM....

Could you link us to any of these setups where reflectors on top of plants with vertical bare bulbs increase yields ?...

Everything I`ve talked about is right here in archives/old threads bout growin 2 1/2-3 lb plants if yas wanna go through the headache of fast hydro....

Reflectors in a room full of bare bulbs is just wasted space and heatgain , but to each his own....

Good luck to all that have more dollars than sense in their quest for dialage....

Won`t bother ya`ll any more...

Peace...DHF.........

 

[dramamine]

i visit and work in dozens of large medical tree grows, they have all seen yield increases by using a mix of horizontal lights and vertical drop bulbs.

Chaco would agree with you...

 

[Guest 150314]

sorry i am not interested in posting pictures or grow diaries of 50+ lighters, even if they are legal.

no reason to do 2-3lb plants unless you are severely restricted with plant limits .. slow turnover, much better numbers doing 1/4 - 1/2 lb plants. use "legal" space for strictly flowering and bring in 4 footers from a veg location. two month turnover, numbers dont lie.

 

[Shafto]

Reflectors don't cause "heat gain". A bulb causes heat, and twelve 1Ks will be virtually the same heat as eight 1Ks and seven 600s, no matter how you use them (sealed air cooled hood different story).

Either way, I'm not worried about heat. I will have a shit ton of air flow and AC for backup.

A reflector creating a dead spot of light right above it is exactly what it's supposed to do. Take the light trying to go up to the ceiling and reflect it down towards the plant. A positioned reflector will work much more efficiently than relying on mylar on the ceiling.

 

[Shafto]

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