The ethics of using bat guano?

ixnay007 · May 15, 2008

After mentioning that a person should be careful about entering into a cave where bats are roosting to harvest guano, I decided to do a little research into the sources of bat guano.

Bat guano, often used as an organic fertilizer in the production of marijuana, is usually mined in caves, and is associated with a corresponding loss of troglobytic biota and diminishing of biodiversity. Guano deposits support a great variety of cave-adapted invertebrate species, which rely on bat feces as their sole nutrient input. In addition to the biological component, deep guano deposits contain local paleoclimatic records in strata that have built up over thousand of years, which are unrecoverable once disturbed.

The greatest damage caused by mining to caves with extant guano deposits is to the bat colonies themselves. Bats are highly vulnerable to regular disturbance to their roosts. Some species, such as P. aphylla, have low fat reserves, and will starve to death when regularly disturbed and put into a panic state during their resting period. Many species will drop pups when in panic, with subsequent death, leading to a steady reduction in numbers. Research in Jamaica has shown that mining for bat guano is directly related to the loss of bat species, associated invertebrates and fungi, and is the greatest threat to bat caves on the island.

http://www.jamaicancaves.org/jamaican_bat_guano.htm

Much of the biodiversity of the Jamaican caves is dependent on bat guano as the food resource. The wholesale removal of the bat guano results in the elimination of not only the bats that made it, through repeated disturbance of a creature that lives on the metabolic edge and is easily driven over that edge, but also results in the elimination of almost every species that lived on it. The cave is effectively sterilized and although the bats might eventually return the invertebrates that were lost are gone forever. I invite any wholesalers, retailers, or buyers of Jamaican Bat Guano to join me in a visit to Bristol Cave if you doubt this. Where there was once a colony of tens of thousands of bats, where there was once a myriad of inverterbrate species, now there is nothing thanks to guano mining.

As we tend to be people who try and nurture life.. both those of our plants, and that of the soil which helps it grow, maybe rethinking the use of bat guano (not all guano) is in order?

varriform · May 16, 2008

Yeah I had heard about that. That is truly the problem with alot of organic gardening. It heavily depends on exploitation of the earths resources and the creatures that live here.
The Pacific war was fought over guano. Bolivia once had a coast untill the late 1800's when Chile went to war with Peru and Bolivia over the rich guano reserves. That's why Chile is such a narrow long country and Bolivia doesn't touch the water. Chile took control of the whole coast.

Peace

ixnay007 · May 16, 2008

Yeah, I read a bit about that..

I can see the use of manures and things from local sources, or farms, but I'm going to have to look a bit deeper into what and where the guanos in my local store come from.

Guest · May 16, 2008

My bat guano is squeezed from baby bats. Only the very healthiest are used. They are selected, massaged by little girls then gently squeezed with a maple wood rolling pin.............

Wait...What? · May 16, 2008

Organic and Sustainable are two completely different things and one does not imply the other.

Microbeman · May 16, 2008

Wait...What? said:
Organic and Sustainable are two completely different things and one does not imply the other.

This is true only as much as we make it true. Why use guano anyway? Do you know how easy it is to set up composting worm bins? If not then you can see instructions on my website http://www.microbeorganics.com

Worm compost (vermicompost/VC) is all you really need besides, possibly some fish hydrolysate. You can use it in/on your soil or for compost tea.

Also if you have a yard, making your own compost is not that challenging. Don't throw out your soil after harvest. At the very least it can be re-used, replenished with organic matter/VC. At best leave it intact in a large container/bin or raised bed or the ground so that the fungal strands which have become established remain; so that the microorganisms which are stationed at their various levels can continue to thrive.

I am guilty of using sphagnum peat moss and related products. This is something else which I believe is not sustainable. At least much of the peat I've purchased is now integrated into living soil.

Tim

C21H30O2 · May 16, 2008

your gunna be hard pressed to convince a organic grower to give up their bat guano (not that they shouldn't) especially when taste of the finished product is important. I wonder if guano could be farmed ie setting up an enclosure and populating it with bats, give them everything they need etc. the only problem is the older deposits of guano are more rich in the needed nutrients.

sophisto · May 16, 2008

Humans are really funny.. Going to war over poop, again and again... We have been greatly misled as a species by our infallible masters.

Seems like there must be a company out there that makes sure that the biodiversity that exists in caves is not disturbed to a detimental degree ??? WHo's got the good guano ????

I sure would hate to give up my guano, but if I am contributing to potentially harming yet another one of earths species by using it I am giving it up..

Who's got the scoop on bat poop companies????

Microbeman · May 16, 2008

C21H30O2 said:
your gunna be hard pressed to convince a organic grower to give up their bat guano (not that they shouldn't) especially when taste of the finished product is important. I wonder if guano could be farmed ie setting up an enclosure and populating it with bats, give them everything they need etc. the only problem is the older deposits of guano are more rich in the needed nutrients.

I know a grower who never used guano, grew organically and had the tastiest highest selling product for several years running out of the Vancouver Compassion Club, arguabley the largest compassion club around. Unfortunately his contract was not honored by federal authorities.

varriform · May 17, 2008

Carl's Pool Bat Guano might be what you are looking for. It is harvested in Texas at one of the biggest bat caves in the world during the migration periods when there are no bats present. Not sure of a website but search Carl's Pool Bat Guano

t-rex · May 17, 2008

Interesting stuff..

It's a shame that most companies don't really provide any information about the way their components (guano in this case) were collected..

C21H30O2 · May 17, 2008

Microbeman said:
I know a grower who never used guano, grew organically and had the tastiest highest selling product for several years running out of the Vancouver Compassion Club, arguabley the largest compassion club around. Unfortunately his contract was not honored by federal authorities.

no doubt you can produce great tasting/smelling cannabis without it. your absolutely right. but bat guano is known for enhancing the flavor of the finished product. hopefully we can find a replenishable source or perhaps a company that practices environmentally safe extraction of guanos.

quadracer · May 17, 2008

Start attracting bats to your yard and collect their guano. They eat a lot of mosquitos too. There's gotta be some plans for a bat house where you coud lay some hay underneath to collect the droppings. The compost pile would love it.

I've also seen postings on craigslist for bat guano that collects in this guys barn. Pretty cheap, maybe I should give him a call...

Guest · May 17, 2008

Don't put poop of any kind in your mouth. That's one of the ethics I live by :muahaha:

ixnay007 · May 18, 2008

I've found that Carl Pool gets their guano from Bracken Cave in San Antonio, and that cave is owned by Bat Conservation International, so they only harvest in the winter when the bats are no longer present.

The bats are insectivores though, so the guano is 10-3-1, I'm not so sure about finding something like this when it comes to fruit bat guano (the primary source of flowering guano)..

As for attracting bats to your yard or house, bat roosts are easy to build and bats tend to appreciate them, plus they'll eat up all those damn mosquitoes. Be careful with the guano though, they're quite often carriers of a lot of nasty diseases.. so treat their poop like any other one, stuff to be composted properly before usage.

http://permaculturetokyo.blogspot.com/2008/05/bats-useful-permaculture-animals.html
There's some instructions here for making bat houses where you can easily collect the guano.

rabid · May 23, 2008

Scatological...sounds like shit to me...

Scatological...sounds like shit to me...

Thanks for starting this discussion ixnay. I have more than a passing curiosity in the guano story as my wife's family seems to have made some of their money in the batshit trade here in Thailand. Not really something to brag about but interesting (to me) nonetheless.

T-rex they collect the product by scraping the cave walls and floors for the shit, at least here in the 3rd world they do it that way. Do you really think they would publicize/glamorize that??? "Hi Honey, how was your day in the shit-cave?" Labor-intensive to say the least...

It's a big business and her folks have tales of feuds between families regarding who owned and have rights to this cave or that cave. All because of a bunch of shit :fsu:

Anyhoo, what about the wonderful Peruvian Seabird Guano??? That shit rocks :headbange

Those birds do their thing also and don't get no recognition... :rant:

ixnay007 · May 23, 2008

Yeah, it's generally an all round shitty situation (these puns are gonna kill me), not good for the animals, the people, or the local economy..

barletta · May 23, 2008

Great thread! I feel like a douche because I just 'stocked up' on Sunleaves Jamaican guano. 11lb will last me over a year. I did a lil research, and I couldn't find anything directly from the company, but... I did find a high P guano that claims to be sourced from uninhabited deposits. It's cheap, and says that it's fine enough for the hydro guys.

Primal Harvest Powder
PRIMAL HARVEST 20LB/9KG
Natural Organic Bloom Fertilizer

"Sourced from uninhabited ancient mineralized deposits - to promote the production of vegetables, fruit & flowers....."

http://www.horticulturesource.com/product_info.php/products_id/2258

I have seen that brand before, and it looks to be distributed by Earth juice/Hydrofarm.

rabid · May 23, 2008

ixnay007 said:
Yeah, it's generally an all round shitty situation (these puns are gonna kill me), not good for the animals, the people, or the local economy..

Don't stop ixnay, we need more punnists here...

I'll play the devils advocate for a bit and say the guano industry ain't ALL bad...the supply-side provides jobs for marginalized folks that are hard-pressed to find any other work. Although clinging to a 40-foot bamboo ladder at the roof of a batcave ain't my idea of fun those guys are relatively well-paid and seem to make a decent living out of it. Remember I said relatively...do they receive workmens comp if they fall off??? I don't know...

But I reckon the end-users like us are the real beneficiaries of the whole shitty process. I can buy both N and P/K-lloaded batshit here for next to nothing and we all know it's the shit :muahaha:

OK, I'll shut up now...

Hazeseeker · May 26, 2008

I've been thinking of trying out Bat Guano for a while now, i grow organic using the Bio Bizz range (nutes and compost), really happy with the results i've been getting but i'm interested in trying it out to see what the difference will be, is it important to flush at the end of the flowering cycle when using Guano even although i use organic nutes?

Peace
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The ethics of using bat guano?

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