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Hitting 2.4 a light, but having to adjust pH with Hugos.
- Thread starter High Grade Only
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High Grade Only
Member
Have you tried a different pH down or going without calmag?
Grodan says established plants should get flushed at sunrise and 1-5 smaller waters a day, to keep the pH low. 400W getting more water less often and 1000W getting less water more often. As my 1x hand watered DTW (a quart for 4 on 6's) plants have gotten older the runoff pH has gone to 7.85 with 5.75 going in, and if I was a pro I'd be investing in a less lazy system that would keep the pH down.
The pH going up of course is not strange, with happenings like urea becoming ammonia, and general N uptake.
Grodan says established plants should get flushed at sunrise and 1-5 smaller waters a day, to keep the pH low. 400W getting more water less often and 1000W getting less water more often. As my 1x hand watered DTW (a quart for 4 on 6's) plants have gotten older the runoff pH has gone to 7.85 with 5.75 going in, and if I was a pro I'd be investing in a less lazy system that would keep the pH down.
The pH going up of course is not strange, with happenings like urea becoming ammonia, and general N uptake.
From my experience, your not soaking the hugo's correctly if there are huge PH spikes like your saying.....
At 2.4 per light, I wouldn't give a fuuuuuck...
N
noyd666
High Grade Only
Member
G.O.joe , I hand water in veg, and hand watered for years in flowering. Havent really been lazy about my system. Also, it's not just older plants that I have ph problems with. It's from the start. Are you suggesting that simply more feedings per day ( even if the cubes aren't light) would fix my ph problems?
Krunchbubble, thank you for responding. And that's really my question, I have people conditioning their Hugo by simply flooding with tap water they didn't even ph and stacking them to drain who dont have the issues I do. Ive tried just about every way to condition the cubes and always have the issue. I have to be missing something. How should I be conditioning them? Yeah 2.4 is cool
, but I'm tired of the struggle to keep them green. I know my yields would be a lot higher if I didn't have to deal with these issues.
Krunchbubble, thank you for responding. And that's really my question, I have people conditioning their Hugo by simply flooding with tap water they didn't even ph and stacking them to drain who dont have the issues I do. Ive tried just about every way to condition the cubes and always have the issue. I have to be missing something. How should I be conditioning them? Yeah 2.4 is cool
When I was hitting my highest ever yield several years ago, I had the same PH swings....
I posted about the PH swings many years ago, I thought at the time it was beneficial. Havent had the same swings, havent has the same yields...
High Grade Only
Member
I personally know and can post pics if requested of people using hugos, and using the same nute regimen as me, getting an average of 2.93 per light. I initially thought ph swings would let me dictate availability of certain chemical elements. But fuck that, why does everyone else not have to deal with constant run off tests and feed ph adjustments?!
I wouldn't know - and for several reasons it's not convenient or absolutely necessary for me to add an extra watering at this time even with the swing. It was the absurd cost of drip stakes of all things that stopped me from starting out with the pumps and timers and all. You never said how much runoff. Maybe a harder flood is the only difference.
It's what Grodan says and I haven't found a reason to not trust them. All I'm saying is experiments might be worthwhile. See the water pdf on this page.
They say 50% saturation - but when the blocks are full of roots, how saturated can they really get and what does half dry actually mean then? Compare with how much water it takes to saturate an empty block.
So when my plants are small and not sucking water they're set on their corners on cans to drip more water out after watering, for smaller plants under fluoros - especially clones - more water is shaken out, or else they'll be too saturated for days and get stunted.
Grodan also says that low pH dissolves their product. I ought to test this for disposal purposes. They went and changed their site recently - now pages that I and even their current pages want to refer to are not found. If you go to the new how to water your plants page in the growing tips section it's like just water when they go dry dumbass and that's all - much difference from the water pdf. That's been tried in veg and 2 quarts once every 2 days worked, but it was obvious by 12-12 that wasn't cutting it with the low under 850 ppm and humid 600W. Switching to 1 quart once daily (1 cup runoff) helped and the big pH swing started, because the plants were doing more.
These Karma Biker Kush 2.0 sisters wanted it known that they aren't completely distressed by the current regime. They could be doing better though.
Last edited:
This_is_me
New member
Have you found a solution to the rising PH?
It is killing me.
I am a first-time grower and my pH runoff from 6" Grodan cubes is just like yours 6.5+.
I have to manually top feed them with a lower pH solution. Part of my plants have magnesium and calcium deficiency (nutrient lock out as the feeding solution has plenty), some have purple areas on the stems. I am growing mother plants at this time and getting ready to clone them. I am concerned that I will have to battle with the pH issue again and again.
Please share if you have some work-around or a new way of conditioning the cubes, or whatever.... Help!
Thanks!
curious for how long that will stay 5.8. eventually the buffer will run out. whats the run off in a few weeks or 40 days??
been wanting to try rockwool again for awhile.
my solution for readjusting any recirc rez has been the millwaukiee mc720. i now own 8 of them for any reservoir. an at $210 a piece off amazon, they save me hours every week from having to adjust 8 separate reservoirs...
Cadfael
Active member
Since I am usually feeding in the 5.4-6.1 range, they stay pretty stable after the initial pH adjust.
I also use a daily morning routine of checking pH, ec, & temps and recording them on a daily log sheet. Then I adjust pH by hand.
It gives me data to review when shit gets weird, AND it gets me off my lazy ass and into the grow to do daily tasks. Even with only three tanks, it only takes about 5 minutes.
I also use a daily morning routine of checking pH, ec, & temps and recording them on a daily log sheet. Then I adjust pH by hand.
It gives me data to review when shit gets weird, AND it gets me off my lazy ass and into the grow to do daily tasks. Even with only three tanks, it only takes about 5 minutes.
unfortunately only temporarily fixes the ph. something been chasing for years.
an 5.4-6.1 is a wide range. assuming we go by any ph chart, which there are a few. 6.1 would lock certain things out, an vise versa at 5.4.
i too log the data, sometimes 2-3 times a day an note every ph & ppm in rez. flower days, how many days on current rez. then note topoff ph & ppm, especially if there is a RO water top off float. make note of any leaf deficiencies, or realizations at that point
my ph always rises, whether its the medium, nutrients or a nutrient change, bubbling the water, or unknown microbial activity, stage of development..
was hoping to hear 4.0 keeps the rockwool more stable weeks later.
appreciate the input cadfael.....
was looking on IG the other day at rare dankness warehouse rooms. some of these guys now use rockwool insulation u purchase for house/commercial wall/roof insulation. just roll out the insulation mat an transplant. pretty sick....
an 5.4-6.1 is a wide range. assuming we go by any ph chart, which there are a few. 6.1 would lock certain things out, an vise versa at 5.4.
i too log the data, sometimes 2-3 times a day an note every ph & ppm in rez. flower days, how many days on current rez. then note topoff ph & ppm, especially if there is a RO water top off float. make note of any leaf deficiencies, or realizations at that point
my ph always rises, whether its the medium, nutrients or a nutrient change, bubbling the water, or unknown microbial activity, stage of development..
was hoping to hear 4.0 keeps the rockwool more stable weeks later.
appreciate the input cadfael.....
was looking on IG the other day at rare dankness warehouse rooms. some of these guys now use rockwool insulation u purchase for house/commercial wall/roof insulation. just roll out the insulation mat an transplant. pretty sick....
This_is_me
New member
I've been reading and researching everything I can find about conditioning rockwool cubes. Grodan (the manufacturer of those cubes) says in their FAQ section that a pH lower than 5 may damage the cube structure and specifically to "melt" some areas within the cube which, when watered with a higher pH, will harden. They say that for this very reason they put into their instructions to soak in 5.5 (as a precaution).
I am a newbie really. I have only grown mother plants (with a lot of deficiencies along the way due to the high pH of those cubes) and I am about to transplant some more seedlings into Grodan cubes.
I soaked today 33 of the 6" cubes in a reservoir with pH adjusted to 5.2. 4 hours later the pH value in the res hasn't changed. When I pick up a cube and tilt it 45 degrees it gives out water in a stream. The last water collected was at pH 6.1 .
Will see tomorrow what happens after 24 hours of wait.
I am afraid to soak them in pH that is lower than 5. Have you had any issue with the cubes changing their structure, not draining water as they supposed to, or some other issues?
Thanks!
Cadfael
Active member
unfortunately only temporarily fixes the ph. something been chasing for years.
an 5.4-6.1 is a wide range. assuming we go by any ph chart, which there are a few. 6.1 would lock certain things out, an vise versa at 5.4.
I wouldn't use the wording "lock out." Lock out implies an over abundance of a cert nute in your root zone, which then locks out something else. Easy to fix by flushing the rockwool by pouring a gallon of water over the cube. Let us use the word absorb.
Nutes will change pH as certain nutes are taken in by the plant. By starting at a 5.4, i am .2 pH off the lower minimum, so in case my pH meter has drifted since i calibrated (which I do at the first of the month, and record it on my calendar) I am still good. Then, over the week, the pH goes up slightly .1 or .2 at a time up to 6.1.
Mg absorbs better at 5.4, your P at 6.1. By letting it rise on it own. It goes thru the bandwidths of every nute best pH range.
This keeps my pH down costs low. I used to be the OCD guy who would faithfully keep dropping pH adjusters everyday and keep a certain SET point. Sure, General Hydro loved me.
Now if you start at 5.4 and go to 6.5 by the next day, you have a rockwool conditioning problem....not problem...but more work as you try to fix that fluxing pH.
This_is_me: No I have not had any problem with structural changes of the cubes by doing a 4.0 soak.
an 5.4-6.1 is a wide range. assuming we go by any ph chart, which there are a few. 6.1 would lock certain things out, an vise versa at 5.4.
I wouldn't use the wording "lock out." Lock out implies an over abundance of a cert nute in your root zone, which then locks out something else. Easy to fix by flushing the rockwool by pouring a gallon of water over the cube. Let us use the word absorb.
Nutes will change pH as certain nutes are taken in by the plant. By starting at a 5.4, i am .2 pH off the lower minimum, so in case my pH meter has drifted since i calibrated (which I do at the first of the month, and record it on my calendar) I am still good. Then, over the week, the pH goes up slightly .1 or .2 at a time up to 6.1.
Mg absorbs better at 5.4, your P at 6.1. By letting it rise on it own. It goes thru the bandwidths of every nute best pH range.
This keeps my pH down costs low. I used to be the OCD guy who would faithfully keep dropping pH adjusters everyday and keep a certain SET point. Sure, General Hydro loved me.
Now if you start at 5.4 and go to 6.5 by the next day, you have a rockwool conditioning problem....not problem...but more work as you try to fix that fluxing pH.
This_is_me: No I have not had any problem with structural changes of the cubes by doing a 4.0 soak.
This_is_me
New member
I figured the rockwool problem. Acidic feeding solution causes a weak chemical reaction with the rockwool thus constantly rising the internal pH. The lower pH you use, the more havoc you wreak. If you keep the water pH at 5.5 (as the manufacturer suggests), the pH will still be rising inside the cube but at least you will keep the integrity of the cube.
I tried pH 4.0 (as Cadfael suggested) my test cube was falling apart in my hands, literally... It is soft and mushy all the way through. And yeas, you can still grow in it, but it doesn't look and feel as good as the 5.5 flushed cube.
As it appears from my experiments with Grodan cubes that the only way to remove this dreaded high pH is to topfeed the plant. If you water from the top, you will flush the high pH away.
It is now apparent that rockwool is only suitable for non-recirculating system where feeding solution goes to waste rather than for another use.
That is basically the "big secret".
I am now looking for a media to grow from my ebb&flow table setup. Rockwool is just wrong.
I will make pictures of the steps that I have taken to determine the conclusions above and will post them in a separate thread.
I tried pH 4.0 (as Cadfael suggested) my test cube was falling apart in my hands, literally... It is soft and mushy all the way through. And yeas, you can still grow in it, but it doesn't look and feel as good as the 5.5 flushed cube.
As it appears from my experiments with Grodan cubes that the only way to remove this dreaded high pH is to topfeed the plant. If you water from the top, you will flush the high pH away.
It is now apparent that rockwool is only suitable for non-recirculating system where feeding solution goes to waste rather than for another use.
That is basically the "big secret".
I am now looking for a media to grow from my ebb&flow table setup. Rockwool is just wrong.
I will make pictures of the steps that I have taken to determine the conclusions above and will post them in a separate thread.
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