Cal-Mag? Ph?

Hey all, so I just moved my first White S1 and White Urkle clones into bloom, they were big beautiful and amazing. About 3-4 days in i started noticing some bronzing and some upwards turned leaves. I am in a drip system, recirculating coco with H&G Aqua Flakes added with GH Roots additive - which I think may be the problem as my ph is oddly really high -6.7 or so (which never happens with H&G). I add some Cal-Mag in veg but not in bloom. My ppm is about 700 or so. Closed room with added CO2, temp. no higher than 80f and humidity about 55%. My other strains are fine, any thoughts would be appreciated. Going to drop my ph down to 5.8 as well.

You need cal-mag in bloom more than anything. And dropping your ph will help.

looks like Mg to me. i think cal-mag is the right advice from tokin. i think the taco/curling is pretty telling
keep ph 5.8-5.9.

question is are you deficient due to a lack of cal-mag, or are you deficient because your ph is way high. or i could be wrong too but thats where my head is at.




https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=231387

to much heat and or light to fast

hup234 said:

to much heat and or light to fast

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That was my guess too. Is there more light in the flowering room than the grow room? Is your drip supply up to par? And lowering your ph is a good idea.

@ George, I have thought that it is more likely because the ph drifted waaaaay to fucking high locking out the Mg. Regarding the light/heat idea....I suppose that could explain the curling and even the weird burn spots as I veg under 1 400w T5 then move to 1kw HPS under bloom and honestly, now that I think about it, these ones got too tall under their T5 and ended up sitting in ambient light for 3 days before bloom. It is def. not too hot in the flower room and I have the HPS waaaaay high right now (probably 2.5ft over the canopy - if not 3ft.) I adjusted the ph down last night and slowed down on my feeding freq. with my ppm being around 700 I am going to guess that was the issue, not lack of Mg. We shall see.....


Oh last thing, these tables are mixed and within one table it is only happening to the White S1, the White Urkle is fine, the Qrazy Train is fine and the Tangerine is fine.

I also have read elsewhere that the White S1 is known to use/need a lot of Calcium

Don't you know coco performs terrible in a recirculation system. How do you account for action exchange? I would think that that may be the reasons for the swings. Your changing the phone & ec value every time you circulate nutrients thru them. Never ran recirculating system in coco so I might not know what the duck I'm talking about.

Do you mean "cation exchange"? I have been running drip system recircualting in coco for a looooong time, works great, in fact there is a great thread on it by 100gOz. Smaller containers, faster growth, like steroids. Huge yields from tiny plants. I have never had any ph issues with H&G but have been adding some GH roots stuff to it, pretty sure that is what is throwing it up so high. I tried GH for a round way too much N and way to many ph fluctuations.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=241341

That's the link to the drip thread

Throw me in with the couple that mentioned heat. Pics two and three definitely look like classic light burn. That can cause some tacoing of the leaves, too. That is the first thing to eliminate as a source of the necrotic leaves and curling leaves - light/heat/humidity shock from the room switch. Are your veg and flower lights the same wattage?

What's your growing experience overall and with this particular system?

This statement jumped out at me, too:

with GH Roots additive - which I think may be the problem as my ph is oddly really high -6.7 or so (which never happens with H&G)

I've not used that particular product, but rootzone products I have used tend to be acidic. I've used lots of other GH stuff though, and I never had any type of problems with anything I have used from them spiking the pH into an unusable range like that. Maybe it is, but it would be counter to everything I have used from GH before.

Does the pH continue to rise over the course of a couple days? If so, it is likely that you aren't just a farmer anymore - you're also a rancher, tending a herd of some living thing that is eating and shitting in your res, causing the pH to rise. Again, that is if the pH continues to rise after you mix and start using it. Not always, but if your pH is high and continues to rise, start looking for something growing in your res to eliminate that cause first, and then move on from there.

Other things that can do that to the pH a nute mix is the source water. Are you using RO or tap? If tap, what is the starting pH and ppm? Are you using pH Up & Down products?

I'll stfu about what I think about co-co in this thread, and know the recommended pH range of it, but I will tell you that if you think you have an Mg def (this will most likely show up on OLDER growth first, not the growth on top), setting your pH to 5.8 wouldn't be the best thing, as that is the pH where Mg uptake by the root system is about at its worst and least efficient.

Veg is 400w over 16 plants, bloom is 1kw over 16 plants, I am pretty skilled with this system and like I said, it's specifically one strain. The ph isn't climbing per se, tested it again this morning, still at 5.8, however, watering only occurs when lights are on, have to check it later. I suppose I can do the ole ph/ppm comparison trick to see if it is too hot (though I am sure it is not). It might be light too, I grew some DJ Short Grape Krush and it hated intense light and would only do well at really low ppm (300ppm!). These strains having a lot of OG in them made me think it might be CalMag starved.Tap water, ph is 7.0 and ppm is something ludicrously low like 10.

I think I figured it out! This actually happened to me a lil while ago and some how I forgot. My temps were getting a little high so I upped my ppm of CO2 to 1800ppm with a low of 1700ppm, instantly had this issue. I dropped it to 1000ppm and 900ppm today, we shall see if this works

merkaba said:

Veg is 400w over 16 plants, bloom is 1kw over 16 plants, I am pretty skilled with this system and like I said, it's specifically one strain.

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There is the issue. I've burned plants in rooms/systems that I've had multiple runs in. Sometimes an inch or two as far as distance to the bulb can push a plant over the edge and the shit just happens. Even things as small as bringing a plant that was at the edge of the light footprint in veg to directly under the bulb in flower (especially with a 600W jump) can do this. I don't know about the CO2 being the cause, as aside from the bronzed leaves, the tacoing is also symptomatic of light/heat issues. Pretty certain it was a heat/light issue.

These strains having a lot of OG in them made me think it might be CalMag starved.

Click to expand...

All of this "X strain is a Ca whore" and "Y strain is an Mg slut" is pretty much bullshit. And seed chuckers, like the guy who was 'The OG Guy', as well as others like, umm 'The Diesel Guy', fuel this bullshit with the fact they have more balls (and want to milk as much money out of everyone as possible for some beans) than growing skills.

You will find mild to moderate N toxicities in most gardens using Cal/Mag, with them obviously being largely undiagnosed. A large part of this bullshit about Cal/Mag revolves around a few things in the weed growing world - the wrong pH range being 'decided upon' and cemented as 'truth' years ago on the weed forums, fueled by Botanicare's shitty Pure Blend Pro line that became all the rage on the forums, but came from the factory deficient in Ca & Mg, so everyone had to give Botanicare more money for Cal/Mag+ to make the original shit work right. And then if you still needed more, give Botanicare more money for a bottle of Sweet, which was pretty much nothing but Mg.

The issue people are most often having when they see Ca & Mg issues is not because it is a strains that needs so much more of those elements in the rootzone, but because it is a strain that is more sensitive to the proper pH range in the rootzone. 5.8 is about the worst point for Mg uptake, yet that is where so many people start. Next, people spend multiple crop cycles trying to 'dial in' their nute regime by mix and matching all kinds of shit until they get lucky and produce good results.

But not great results. Weed is like anything else. Plenty of ditchweed, lot's of good weed, but only a small percentage of truly exceptional quality stuff.

Exceptional quality is the world I live in, which is why I am adamant about a couple of the things in this post, like RO, proper pH range, not over N'ing your plants, etc. I haven't flowered them all, but I have had my hands on 80+ strains. I have run a Mother Room that had 60+ strains at any one time. I've run 24 different strains on a 24 site RDWC. Everything, from RDWC to Ebb & Flow to 'dirt' (peat/perlite/vermiculite) got the same proportions of nutes at the SAME pH. Only the ppm strength changed between systems - but same ratios of nutes and pH.

(EDIT): Pure sativas (pretty uncommon in gardens) or highly Sativa dominant hybrids (very sativa phenotype and little traces of indica) need their own shit. I am talking 90%+ of the strains out there with them all being on the same mix and proper pH.

Not one bottle of Cal/Mag in that garden, and not one Ca or Mg issue in any plant. That is because I use the proper pH range, that starts in the low 5's. Even the 'dirt' plants got low 5s - because the shit ain't soil. There is no clay and sand in PPV mixes, so PPV mixes are NOT truly dirt or soil. Add a bit more perlite to air it up, and it is a hand watered, drain-to-waste hydro system and needs to be treated as such.

It is a minority voice, but I am not the only one. I know people can find posts from 10k here (an Old Timer from early OverGrow days) saying the same thing about pH.

Lotta words there, but I am passionate about this shit, lol.

Tap water, ph is 7.0 and ppm is something ludicrously low like 10.

Click to expand...

I'm a huge fan of an RO filter, especially with folks running thowies and/or CO2. All that stuff costs more than an RO filter. Your tap ain't that bad. PPM is not the only thing to worry about, though. As soon as those nutes you bought hits non-RO water, chemical reactions occur, slightly changing things. I say slightly, because with water like yours it will be that, but mfg DON'T use tap water when the are mixing the stuff up to sell you. There is a reason for that, and pretty much EVERY mfgs nutes work BEST with RO. Tap water can also vary from month to month and day to day in its composition.

Add to that many municipalites are now using a non-evaporating chlorine molecule, rendering useless the 'ol 'leave the water sit for 24 hours to let the chlorine evaporate out' grower trick. Though a necessary element for plants in very small quantities, chlorine is linked to flower damage in many plants.

One last thing about the CO2. I've never personally done it, nor can I say I've seen a garden where it was done, but you can find some talk of people raising their CO2 ppm to very high levels for a day or two to suffocate and kill mites. I've not ever seen any talk of the type of plant damage you experienced from those temporarily elevated CO2 levels, even though they woudl be considered toxic to the plant.

You know Cat Jockey, I have never used CalMag though I did years ago get swept into the Botanicare Pure Blend Pro craze. I used Pro Mix of Sunshine Mix for years, kept it super simple and had no problems. I switched to H&G when I switched to coco drip and have overall great results. It is certainly strain specific and the only 2 variables (really) are the increase of light and the bump in CO2. I have personally experienced the CO2 causing problems when actually increasing it previously to just to kick it up a notch, noticed weird curling. Turned it down - problem solved! When I ran soilless hand watered, I kept my ph at 6.5. Now I shoot for 5.8 in coco, though I have read of folks (RezDog?) using 5.5ph in coco. I also only started using CalMag in coco - one of those don't reinvent the wheel moments. Did it the first time and it was great so stuck with it. I cut it out after a while though as I felt it was pointless. And i 100% agree with your assessment of "soil", been saying that forever. Pretty much my thought on organics indoors too. I am not in the earth, and my plants are leeched so much before I am done, not major salt stores are being put back into my vegetable garden . Thanks for the insights and I'll keep posted.

Here are the links to CO2 I found:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=275100

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=213071

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=51779

All said and done though, this is why I am never running mixed tables in the future

That is an awesome pic from that cat that bagged up the plant with CO2. I'm not trying to argue you at all, and will get on outta here after this post, but your leaf looks a bit different. Perhaps the pics aren't showing it clearly, but it looks like every leaf I ever burned switching lights or lowering the light a bit too much.

That first thread sounds like the dude had a propane leak and was suffocating them that way.

Keep in mind the one guy put the plant in a bag of PURE CO2. That's exponentially more ppm then what we are talking about here. Cool looking fuggin' leaf though, eh?

Take care

merkaba said:

@ George, I have thought that it is more likely because the ph drifted waaaaay to fucking high locking out the Mg. Regarding the light/heat idea....I suppose that could explain the curling and even the weird burn spots as I veg under 1 400w T5 then move to 1kw HPS under bloom and honestly, now that I think about it, these ones got too tall under their T5 and ended up sitting in ambient light for 3 days before bloom. It is def. not too hot in the flower room and I have the HPS waaaaay high right now (probably 2.5ft over the canopy - if not 3ft.) I adjusted the ph down last night and slowed down on my feeding freq. with my ppm being around 700 I am going to guess that was the issue, not lack of Mg. We shall see.....


Oh last thing, these tables are mixed and within one table it is only happening to the White S1, the White Urkle is fine, the Qrazy Train is fine and the Tangerine is fine.

Click to expand...

keep us updated on how it plays out, im interested. whether it turns out to be PH, deficiency, heat stress or a combo, its good info for the people that are struggling with something similar . i had many PH related issues with my first grows many years back (first grow used no meter, just a ph gauge from HD or whatever, some plants did ok, others completely stunted halfway through flower, what an experience for a noobie lol), threads like these were what i needed to get me set straight, that and a good combo meter

Cat Jockey said:

There is the issue. I've burned plants in rooms/systems that I've had multiple runs in. Sometimes an inch or two as far as distance to the bulb can push a plant over the edge and the shit just happens. Even things as small as bringing a plant that was at the edge of the light footprint in veg to directly under the bulb in flower (especially with a 600W jump) can do this. I don't know about the CO2 being the cause, as aside from the bronzed leaves, the tacoing is also symptomatic of light/heat issues. Pretty certain it was a heat/light issue.

All of this "X strain is a Ca whore" and "Y strain is an Mg slut" is pretty much bullshit. And seed chuckers, like the guy who was 'The OG Guy', as well as others like, umm 'The Diesel Guy', fuel this bullshit with the fact they have more balls (and want to milk as much money out of everyone as possible for some beans) than growing skills.

You will find mild to moderate N toxicities in most gardens using Cal/Mag, with them obviously being largely undiagnosed. A large part of this bullshit about Cal/Mag revolves around a few things in the weed growing world - the wrong pH range being 'decided upon' and cemented as 'truth' years ago on the weed forums, fueled by Botanicare's shitty Pure Blend Pro line that became all the rage on the forums, but came from the factory deficient in Ca & Mg, so everyone had to give Botanicare more money for Cal/Mag+ to make the original shit work right. And then if you still needed more, give Botanicare more money for a bottle of Sweet, which was pretty much nothing but Mg.

The issue people are most often having when they see Ca & Mg issues is not because it is a strains that needs so much more of those elements in the rootzone, but because it is a strain that is more sensitive to the proper pH range in the rootzone. 5.8 is about the worst point for Mg uptake, yet that is where so many people start. Next, people spend multiple crop cycles trying to 'dial in' their nute regime by mix and matching all kinds of shit until they get lucky and produce good results.

But not great results. Weed is like anything else. Plenty of ditchweed, lot's of good weed, but only a small percentage of truly exceptional quality stuff.

Exceptional quality is the world I live in, which is why I am adamant about a couple of the things in this post, like RO, proper pH range, not over N'ing your plants, etc. I haven't flowered them all, but I have had my hands on 80+ strains. I have run a Mother Room that had 60+ strains at any one time. I've run 24 different strains on a 24 site RDWC. Everything, from RDWC to Ebb & Flow to 'dirt' (peat/perlite/vermiculite) got the same proportions of nutes at the SAME pH. Only the ppm strength changed between systems - but same ratios of nutes and pH.

(EDIT): Pure sativas (pretty uncommon in gardens) or highly Sativa dominant hybrids (very sativa phenotype and little traces of indica) need their own shit. I am talking 90%+ of the strains out there with them all being on the same mix and proper pH.

Not one bottle of Cal/Mag in that garden, and not one Ca or Mg issue in any plant. That is because I use the proper pH range, that starts in the low 5's. Even the 'dirt' plants got low 5s - because the shit ain't soil. There is no clay and sand in PPV mixes, so PPV mixes are NOT truly dirt or soil. Add a bit more perlite to air it up, and it is a hand watered, drain-to-waste hydro system and needs to be treated as such.

It is a minority voice, but I am not the only one. I know people can find posts from 10k here (an Old Timer from early OverGrow days) saying the same thing about pH.

Lotta words there, but I am passionate about this shit, lol.

I'm a huge fan of an RO filter, especially with folks running thowies and/or CO2. All that stuff costs more than an RO filter. Your tap ain't that bad. PPM is not the only thing to worry about, though. As soon as those nutes you bought hits non-RO water, chemical reactions occur, slightly changing things. I say slightly, because with water like yours it will be that, but mfg DON'T use tap water when the are mixing the stuff up to sell you. There is a reason for that, and pretty much EVERY mfgs nutes work BEST with RO. Tap water can also vary from month to month and day to day in its composition.

Add to that many municipalites are now using a non-evaporating chlorine molecule, rendering useless the 'ol 'leave the water sit for 24 hours to let the chlorine evaporate out' grower trick. Though a necessary element for plants in very small quantities, chlorine is linked to flower damage in many plants.

Click to expand...

right on, good info for all of us. i will try a little change myself and see how it plays out. my eyes and ears still work, so i use them to Look/Listen/Learn

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=6042750&postcount=2

i do have a question though, why start so low on the ph vs the more "acceptable" range? im assuming here youre mixing your res and letting the PH rise over time to allow for different nutrient availability? 5.1ph would not allow for ca/mg uptake according to "traditional" charts for soiless media. or am i misunderstanding and youre saying mix low, let it rise overtime and THEN using it? you do mention "starts in the low 5s" which could be interpreted both ways IMO. i am having to supplement a little ca/mg myself, but maybe i should try your method