S2s vs S2s in terms of inbreeding depression

Let's say you take a clone from a female, and reverse that clone so that it produces male pollen, then pollinate your original female to produce S1 seeds. Then take TWO of the resulting S1 seeds, grow them to maturity, and reverse one of them so you can pollinate one with the other to produce S2 seeds.

Now picture a second example where you take a clone from a female, and reverse that clone so that it produces male pollen, then pollinate your original female to produce S1 seeds. But now you take ONE S1 seed, grow it, take a cutting which you reverse to produce pollen, and use that pollen to pollinate itself and make S2 seeds.

Will the S2s produced in the second example suffer a similar amount of inbreeding depression as the S2s in the first? Would there still be significantly more inbreeding depression in the first example than in an F2? But less than in the second right?

What about a third scenario where you start off with two females (sisters) of a single strain, reverse one to pollinate the other, and repeat to make S1s, S2s, S3s, etc... would you then stand a better chance of not getting as much inbreeding depression than if you continually crossed a single female to itself?

For a fourth scenario, if all you have is S1 seeds made by crossing a female to itself, and you wanted to preserve this line in the best way possible, would it make sense to create parallel lines? So you have:

S1 seed #1 x S1 seed #2 (not a DIRECT self cross) = line 1

and

S1 seed #3 x S1 seed #4 (not a DIRECT self cross) = line 2


Then you cross an S2 (or S3, S4, etc) from line 1 with an S2 (or S3, S4, etc) from line 2.

Would this result in a SIGNIFICANTLY healthier line than simply selfing the same female to produce successive generations?

This is interesting and a very great topic... I'm wondering myself now, I'm a nobody but I'll assume there's less variation in the cutting that get's s1'd; but this is something I would love to test out myself once I get some silver which I already needed for my NL#5 and HeadCheese S1's..

Ahh you missed Tom Hills rants on the subject. According to him you wont experience inbreeding depression til much further down the line. You want to keep them separate (as in making true selfed S1/S2 of different phenos) until you notice them getting weaker, then you incross them..

Tom Hills prescribed inbreeding programme;
pop 500 fem S1 seeds
select 5 keeper females (1%)
self each pheno into 5 diff batches of S1's
pop 500 of each pheno (2500 total individuals)
again, select 1% of population

Then you rinse and repeat until the traits you want are fixed, then the individuals will be ready for an outcross OR if you want to keep them together you cross A keeper family pheno to B keeper family pheno, since they started at the same place they are closely related but doing so will return vigor to the line..

This is a huge paraphrase from memory, I'd go read Tom Hills posts on the subject, fascinating shit.

I don't have the space for quite that big a breeding program (just yet anyway!), but thanks for posting that oceangrown. It makes good sense. Going to have a look and see if I can find TH's post/s on the subject.

You can apply the same ratios to much smaller populations, select keepers in say 100 batches of S1 seeds.. You know they are female so start culling them earlier for growth traits, ect...

hello fellows, good breeding talk here, interesting,

i was thinking, when breeding in grow room wth 1000 seeds for example, 500 females plants in a 20K flowering room, growing small batch of many seedlots like 50 seeds per seedlot should help instead of poping 500 seeds of the same seedlot at a time.

and i was thinking too with Selfed seeds, growing small batch directly in 12/12 could be a usefull growing technique, what do you think fellows ?

was wonderin the same thing. I did this a few times. haven't got much further then S2s

but now im in the process of making new CS and making more clone only S1s

In terms of reversing. Is silver cs the best way? Im doing a light stressed grow right now in the test grow section and they r doing great.

sourpuss said:

In terms of reversing. Is silver cs the best way? Im doing a light stressed grow right now in the test grow section and they r doing great.

Click to expand...

the best way IMO is to use chemical product like CS or GA. first testing the plants under environmental stress and then chemical treatment on the best selected clones who did not reversed under natural induced stress.

The people I follow have claimed STS (silver thiosulphate) solution is best at getting bitches to show their dicks. Gonna be testing this theory soon enough.

select 5 keeper females (5%)

thats 1% 5 to 100 would be 5%

In terms of reversing. Is silver cs the best way? Im doing a light stressed grow right now in the test grow section and they r doing great.

sts is the way to go,i have successfully reversed plants with one single application

Oh wow, stoner math in effect. Whatever, 500 seeds is a better population to select from lol.

Crosses between two clones should not be different from a self.

Colloidal silver is an inefficient treatment for ethylene inhibition, just easy to obtain for the cliche gray/black market grower or breeder. STS is an established standby for this purpose in other species because it is quite stable and mobile in tissues.

I think there will be more inbreed depression if u self a s1 to itselfe. With every seed it is like with your siblings they come from the same genetics but are all a little different. Not sure if thats the same in cannabis like in humans but think so.