Neem as a Soil Conditioner

ozzieAI · Apr 12, 2013

This experiment/comparison is to see if neem works as a soil conditioner. there is much written about neem being used for pest control both as a foliar spray and too a lesser extent as a soil drench but little seems to be known about neem being used as a soil conditioner. in my threads about using neem as a soil drench several contributors stated that they thought apply neem to the soil was a bad idea.

to clarify i use neem that has been specifically made for agricultural purposes through the addition of an organic emulsifier. i apply two types of doses to my plants: 5ml/litre as a maintenance dose and 12ml/litre to fight bugs specially Root Aphids and fungus gnats. since using neem as a soil drench i have observed the following: excellent growth rates, healthy strong plants and a massive reduction in pests both indoors and out. what i can't quantify if neem helps the plant grow better than plants without neem.

2 weeks ago i took cuttings (14) from current vegging plants and out of those i selected 8 of the resulting clones based on root development consistency. all plants were planted in the same size pots with the same soil and the same amount of organic soil amendment was mixed into each pot. the 2 i selected to be excluded from receiving neem were the most 'middle of the road' plants out of the final 8.

i mixed a mild seaweed/fish emulsion mix and applied this to the 2 marked plants before adding 5ml/litre of neem oil and watering that into the rest of the clones (and vegging plants). i also applied a foliar spray of a mild mix of seaweed/fish emulsion/silica/potash to all plants. i will try and update this thread regularly for the next 4 weeks with comparison pics.

plants marked with the tags are the neem free. i will move all plants around once a week to ensure equal exposure to the light.

full grow room...

just a quick update:
here is a pic of 3 current seedlings at day 33. these plants have been watered with neem oil at 5ml/litre twice: once on day 14 and again 2 days ago...just to respond to some of the questions/statements posted. YES you can water emulsified neem oil into your soil and it WON'T damage your roots...but rather help keep them nice healthy...

as you can see nice healthy plants and roots....

ozzieAI · Jun 8, 2013

sorry guys i didn't see that my thread got posted after mod approval...

well the experiment is well and truly over with the result being that neem does help to develop more roots than plants that weren't treated with neem. however the actual plants themselves above the root line looked identical.

here are the shots for the first 4 weeks:

as you can see there is no difference in the plant development and if i didn't have the tags in i would not have been able to tell the which was which.

it was only when i repotted the plants that i noticed the difference in the rootballs. now i must apologise for i lost the pics showing the difference in the root development which i estimate to be 15 - 20% more roots for the neem treated plants.

i find it strange that a bigger root mass didn't equal bigger plants. all plants were very healthy and pest free...which is nice after fighting Root Aphids for so long. out of the plants shown, 3 were gifted to friends and the 3 i kept have gone outside and i still can't tell the difference between the neem treated and untreated plants.

i will keep using neem oil as a part of my watering program but i am dialing it back since i have been able to source neem cake to amend my soil. using neem for me has been more about fighting pests than conditioning the soil but i had to see if it was a benefit or not.

canna woop! · Jun 8, 2013

Nice test, way to put. The info out there

Canna woop!

I also spray budding plants with néem oil at 2 teaspoons per liter and as longas it's at night they grow on as healthy as ever.

I wouldn't use much else on budding plants, botanicals and botanical oils are the way to go

VerdantGreen · Jun 8, 2013

nice test. i use neem seed meal in my soul mix and that certainly helps with fungus gnats.

moses wellfleet · Jun 8, 2013

Would be better if you can do a side by side until the end of flower?

Treetroit City · Jun 8, 2013

I would think neem cake would be the way to go here. Just recently saw it on sale for three dollars a pound, seemed like a good deal.

ozzieAI · Jun 8, 2013

Would be better if you can do a side by side until the end of flower?

yes it would have been, but outside (where i flower) i have to give neem oil to protect the plants from the caterpillars and grasshoppers...

moses wellfleet · Jun 8, 2013

Oh yes thanx for your earlier reply by the way, I am using it indoors to combat spider mites and leaf hoppers do you think it will work against these pests?

ozzieAI · Jun 8, 2013

Oh yes thanx for your earlier reply by the way, I am using it indoors to combat spider mites and leaf hoppers do you think it will work against these pests?

i have beaten spider mites with using neem systemically but it does take it bit longer and bit of a higher dosage, leaf hopers should vanish pretty quickly once you introduce neem into your watering regime. if you have an issue with spider mites taking longer to be affected by the neem then spray a little on them directly to give them their marching orders. any insect that eats the plant will/should be affected by the neem. i have almost totally stopped caterpillars and grasshoppers (these at the worst give me minor damage if i miss a watering or two) in their tracks outdoors and FG, RA and spider mites indoors...

VerdantGreen · Jun 8, 2013

ozzie, do you have any info that proves categorically that neem is systemic? ive never been able to find any, and whilst the neem seed meal protects against soil borne pests it doesnt stop me getting mites.

VG

ozzieAI · Jun 8, 2013

ozzie, do you have any info that proves categorically that neem is systemic? ive never been able to find any, and whilst the neem seed meal protects against soil borne pests it doesnt stop me getting mites.

now that is a very good question...i have a few links to neem oil sites but none of them i would classify as categorical proof. what i do know is that bugs that eat my plants don't eat them when i water neem into the soil...i almost NEVER spray neem these days or anything else.

neem cake and oil seem to be quite different...neem cake is left over after the oil has been extracted so oil (i think) is stronger and the fact that it is emulsified into a liquid allows the plants to take it up more readily. spider mites were harder than other pests to get rid of but i have not seen a mite on my plants for many cycles now and i ONLY ever use neem in the water as pest prevention.

i would love to hear from other neem users (oil and/or cake/meal) about their experiences.

all that i can suggest is to 'give it a go' and see for yourself

VerdantGreen · Jun 8, 2013

cool thanks. i'll look into it some more. if you are getting the results with it then thats cool. i'm not sure that a plant root could take up an emulsified neem oil droplet tbh and how it could be systemic when its not soluble but i will try to stay open minded.

VG

ozzieAI · Jun 8, 2013

cool thanks. i'll look into it some more. if you are getting the results with it then thats cool. i'm not sure that a plant root could take up an emulsified neem oil droplet tbh and how it could be systemic when its not soluble but i will try to stay open minded.

the neem oil becomes soluble once the emulsifier is added...the neem oil i use mixes completely with the water. i have checked out your grows and you seem to have very little in the way of pest issues unlike myself so using neem for you may not bring the returns that i get.

i hope moses keeps us in the loop with his neem experiences. personally i think many people are missing the boat here when it comes to using neem as a soil drench to capture it's ability to protect plants.

thanks for your input VG

ozzieAI · Jun 8, 2013

here are a couple of links: http://www.ublcorp.com/files/Biological_Insecticides.pdf
read from page 3 on

http://scarab.msu.montana.edu/YardGarden/docs/neem-insect.htm
Neem has some systemic activity when applied as a foliar spray, but it seems to work best as a systemic when applied as a soil drench, absorbed by the plant roots.

http://www.natureneem.com/index_fichiers/Neem_oil_water_soluble.htm
Can you use Nature neem oil to exhibit systemic activity?
Nature neem oil exhibits systemic effect upon soil application. Systemic application provides good control of Leaf miners, Aphids, Whiteflies and Caterpillars.

Treetroit City · Jun 8, 2013

May have to try a drench to kill the FG larva that are at this point obviously immune to bti

ozzieAI · Jun 9, 2013

May have to try a drench to kill the FG larva that are at this point obviously immune to bti

use 5ml/litre for 2 - 3 waterings ensuring you get the soil completely wet with some run off.

ozzieAI · Jun 9, 2013

okay to bring this thread back on track...ie how neem oil works as a soil conditioner
i will post this to hopefully provide the "proof" that neem IS systemic and DOES work as a GREAT, SUPER, FANTASTIC insect protection device :

SYSTEMIC EFFECT

The fact that the extracts can be taken up by plants (and thereby confer
protection from within) is one of neem's most interesting and potentially useful
features. As has been noted, however, the level of this systemic activity differs
from plant to plant and formulation to formulation. Extracts without oil, with a little
oil, and with much oil exhibit different levels of systemic action.

The systemic activity differs with the insect as well. It is not effective on
some aphids, for instance. They feed in phloem tissues, where (for reasons yet
unknown) the concentration of azadirachtin is very low. Phloem is the plant's
outermost layer of conductive tissues and insects such as these, whose mouthparts
cannot penetrate past it, are little affected by neem treatments. On the other hand,
leafhoppers and planthoppers, that feed at least half the time on the deeper layer of
conductive tissues (called the xylem), get knocked down.

Repellant effect – Neem has demonstrated its repellancy in trials against
many insects, including buffalo fly and ticks in cattle, ticks and lice in sheep,
mosquitos and sand-flies, human head lice, fleas and ticks on dogs, cats and all
domestic pets, insects parasitic against fruit, vegetable and broad acre crops such
as cotton and sugar and for the first time ever against the North Q’land Fruit
Sucking Moth. (DPI has tested it against this moth at Mareeba in North Q’land, & described it as a “cumulative repellant”)

Insecticidal effect – Neem kills insects by many different methods, the best
known of which is it’s anti-feedant action. Once dosed, insects can’t feed and thus
starve to death. However, Neem has many other activities against insects
disrupting or inhibiting development of eggs, larvae or pupae, preventing the
molting of larvae or nymphs, disrupting mating and sexual communication, repelling
larvae and adults, deterring females from laying eggs, sterilizing adults, poisoning
larvae and adults, feeding deterrent, blocking the ability to swallow by reducing the
motility of the gut preventing metamorphosis, thus preventing for example
mosquito wrigglers maturing into adults, inhibiting the formation of chitin, the
substance essential for the insect to form an exoskeleton (Ref. Australia DPI)

All leaf-eating insects are wiped out as are all insects actually coming into
contact with Neem. This huge array of insecticidal properties of Neem is thought to
be due to it’s adversely effecting the insects hormone system. If that is so then no
insect will be able to become immune, because it’s hormone system is essential for
every bodily function. Most significant, insects develop resistance in each
subsequent generation, and as insects dosed with Neem cannot breed, thus there
are no subsequent generations in which resistance can develop. (Ref. Australia DPI)

Is Neem Safe ? – Neem is safe for humans, animals, birds and fish, yet
deadly to most insects. (Ref. Australia DPI)

Exceptions are spiders, butterflies, bees, ladybirds etc, ie non-leaf eating
insects. Indians have been using Neem for hundreds of years – Mahatma Ghandi is
said to have regularly prepared and eaten Neem chutney – as oral hygiene and
dental care, fungicide, bactericide, small doses taken internally to treat malaria, to
control blood sugar in diabetes, consumed as Neem leaf tea; and the leaves and
seeds are eaten by sheep and cattle without any ill effects. (Ref. Australia DPI)

the only question i ask is 'have you tried it?"

we can always discuss this topic here: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=253854

thanks for all the contributions guys

ozzieAI · Jul 19, 2013

just a quick update:
here is a pic of 3 current seedlings at day 33. these plants have been watered with neem oil at 5ml/litre twice: once on day 14 and again 2 days ago...just to respond to some of the questions/statements posted. YES you can water emulsified neem oil into your soil and it WON'T damage your roots...but rather help keep them nice healthy...

as you can see nice healthy plants and roots....

(also posted on first page of thread)

Carlos Danger · Jul 30, 2013

Great thread, ozzie! I utilize neem meal for soil conditioning as well as in my worm bins to keep pest in line. Absolutely fantastic stuff, as close to a miracle plant as I've found. Have you experimented with karanja at all? It's almost entirely the same except for a couple chemicals.

soursmoker · Jul 30, 2013

awesome man! those are some healthy plants!

I finally just picked up 2 lbs of neem meal!

Neem as a Soil Conditioner

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