Neem v Root Aphids

Update (6th April): finally got access to a camera

these are the plants given neem oil at 12ml/litre on the 22nd April 2013. the big ones are 7 weeks old and the smaller are 3 weeks from being potted as rooted clones.


and here is a single plant @ 7 weeks from rooted clone.


not a sign of problems..

SUMMARY

i have successfully stopped RA from further damaging my plants by applying neem oil (with emulsifier) at a rate of 12ml/litre ensuring that the growing media was completely saturated. it has been a week since treatment and my plants to healthy and back to normal growth rates. The neem treatment may not of completely eradicated the RA but they are no longer affecting my grow. The neem solution will be reapplied again in 2 weeks to ensure any further RA populations are unable to establish. This treatment (for me at least) will be ongoing. Several contributors to the thread (thanks guys) have mentioned neem oil SHOULDN'T be applied to the root zone and I want to confirm if neem is beneficial or not when applied to the soil, so will start a side/side experiment to see if it is or not in the next 2 weeks when i plant the cuttings i took today.

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Nothing like putting your pot where your mouth is to get the juices flowing…

I have come to realise that my growing environment/medium is now completely polluted with root aphids (RA)…

For 3 seasons now I have battled RA… the first 2 without knowing that RA was the issue…

Season 1: lost cycle after cycle in a perpetual organic veg system to RA whilst all the time fighting what I thought were nute issues…proving that everyone can be an idiot every now and then…

Season 2: conned on to the fact neem oil can be fed to plants via the roots and is an excellent soil conditioner as well as having systemic properties…had much better results but issues persisted throughout the year…I mean I had some excellent root balls but others sucked balls…why???

Season 3: stopped drooling over you lucky high watt growers in all forms and machinations and found the infirmary thread…a nudge in the right direction and I found this…

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=159960

A few weeks ago I had a plant deeply affect by RA…last out of 6 that died before hand…hitting it with a mix of neem and imid I was able to save this plant from the same fate of its siblings…

Today…I have confirmed RA in my current grow …this verifies that RA has spread through all layers of my recycled soil system…bugger…

Now I have successfully used imid to cure my last infestation...now the use of imid is effective but I can't understand what is so bad about it…if someone could explain in plain lay man terms why imid is so bad I would love to hear it…

http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/imidacloprid.pdf

So today I confirmed my plants have RA…evidence:
" slowed growth rates
" pale leaves/die off
" dead zones in the root ball…

My first response was to reach for the imid but a thought bubble interrupted the process…'what if neem was enough'…'maybe I haven't been adding enough'???

I think/hope neem should be able to manage my issue due to the fact since I introduced neem to my regime I did have better results…

Hmmm….ummmm…errrrr…fuck it…

So I super dosed with 12ml/litre of neem oil today…with some seasol (seaweed)

To assist in catching further damage I removed all leaves (15 - 20%) that showed any sign of damage leaving clean, full green leaves…I used enough neem/seasol (seaweed) mix to saturate the growing medium (1/2 coco coir/organic soil)

I will monitor the plants over this next week or so to see if the neem is enough and will hit with the imid if things continue to get worse…

Let's see how it goes…

Good luck, mang. That's a lot of oil on the roots. You'd be better off using Azasol. No oil. Azadiractin is extracted from Neem. Azasol, unlike Azamax and Azatrol, has no oil. Instantly water soluble, and has more systemic effect. No smell [to humans] when dry. No oily mess in your grow space. Most important, no oil on your roots. -granger

24 Hours

24 Hours

well it's been 24 hours and the plants look good with no new leaf damage. sprayed with seasol (seaweed) and fish emulsion to perk them up.

thanks for dropping in Granger...looked up azasol...and to be honest i simply couldn't afford it...it will be an ongoing issue for me since eradication is simply not possible in my given environment.

the neem i use has emulsion added to it to make it water soluble, but yeah the solution does leave some residue. i have previously used 10 ml/litre with no adverse affects and am aware that at 12ml/litre i am using 4x the recommended dosage.

the up side to RA is that they don't survive once i place the plants outdoors for flowering...for some reason my plants recover but the damage has been done so yields have been very poor.

You cant feed with neem oil. It wont even kill aphids. Neem oil is meant to be used as a foliar preventative, emulsified properly it is effective against bugs, mildew and many other things. It will not eradicate bugs. Imid will kill the aphids but you should only do that during veg. It lasts 60+ days within the plant. Feeding with neem will cause lockout and deficiency. Thats a quick route to problems.

Neem oil works from inside the plant

Many insecticides break down quickly. They wash away with rain, or when irrigating, or the sunlight destroys them. You either have to spray all the time, or you have to spray something that's so stable that it stays around forever. That means the chemical builds up everywhere and eventually poisons everything, including you.

Neem oil breaks down very quickly, too. It is especially susceptible to UV light. But neem oil is also a systemic insecticide. That means you can pour it on the soil (not pure neem oil of course, you use a dilution or extract) and the plants absorb it. They take it up into their tissue, and it works from the inside. A leaf hopper may take a couple of bites, but that's it.

However, this does not work for all insect species. The neem ingredients accumulate in the tissues deeper inside the plant. The phloem, the outermost layer, contains hardly any. A tiny aphid feeds from the phloem, it can not penetrate deep enough to get a dose of neem. But any leaf hoppers, grass hoppers or similar chomping insects will be incapacitated quickly.

People eat neem leaves to cleanse the blood, stimulate the liver, and boost the immune system. So we certainly don't need to worry about a bit of neem inside our lettuce leaves. To me this is a much more attractive option than having poisonous foulicides build up in my garden.

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From here: http://www.discoverneem.com/neem-oil-insecticide.html

this line: A tiny aphid feeds from the phloem, it can not penetrate deep enough to get a dose of neem.

is correct...but saturate the whole environment...like i did and there is no escape....bhwwaaaaa

Wow. Think that can work with hydro? Like in rockwool? I hate imid, i hate eagle 20 but they both work and if used in veg they are effective and leave the plant before a 9 weeker finishes. I was always told neem cant be used any way other than foliar or it would cause major issues. You dont suffer any lockout from this? I KNOW imid will fix your problem. If you foliar with neem after that should prevent the fugging ra. I hate them!

Think that can work with hydro? Like in rockwool?

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i think it would depend on what hydro system you are using. i think DTW would be better than reticulated systems. the neem does leave a residue that may block sprayers/drips etc. using it as flush might be a strategy...i wouldn't what it sitting in a res for too long...

heres the blurb from the site i buy my neem from.

Neem Oil has been used as a fertiliser and wetter sticker for centuries. Our Neem Plant Spray is pure Neem Oil mixed with an organic emusifier enabling it to be mixed with water or fertilisers. It is an excellent adjuvant for fertiliser or as a stand alone product. Ideal as a floliar to make plants shine, as a soil drench for soil conditioning or as a fertiliser enhancer wetter sticker. The Japanese include our neem in their fertilisers via dripper at a rate of 2 mL per litre as ther have done for many many years. BFA Registered.

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By using that neat search button at the top of the page,,, I get 127 threads with neem and root aphids in the title.

If I were to go by the experience of others, against your hopes and dreams - neem is not a suitable single line weapon. That said,, my money is on my harvest vs. yours.

Take it with a grain if salt if you choose, but I think you are vastly underrating R/A's or overating your intuitions.

Good luck tho - for this enemy,, is our enemy.

hows everyone doing? Root ahpids suck but i agree imid is going to destroy them..the stuff i use is called rose x by bonide, it only lawsts 6 weeks in the plant..its a systemic drench...Roots need oxygen and the thick layer off neem will reduce your oxygen to medium ration which will lower your plants immune system even more...Good luck bro..

RockyMountainHi said:

By using that neat search button at the top of the page,,, I get 127 threads with neem and root aphids in the title.

If I were to go by the experience of others, against your hopes and dreams - neem is not a suitable single line weapon. That said,, my money is on my harvest vs. yours.

Take it with a grain if salt if you choose, but I think you are vastly underrating R/A's or overating your intuitions.

Good luck tho - for this enemy,, is our enemy.

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thanks for the best wishes RMH & SoCal...
yeah and i have read through a ton of threads on this topic but my motivations for this tactic is to see what 'sustainable' solution i can find to manage RAs and maintain my organic status...in my own head, but it still counts...

since i recycle my soil the use of imid can build immunity up in the RA popular making the issue one of escalation...even if the neem isn't the end and be all to totally rid myself of RA it may keep them at a level that is 'sustainable'

looking over other peoples experiences has ensured my level of expectation is in check with possible/likely outcomes....and worst comes to worst i hit with imid...but i had to try...

the foliar spray has picked the plants up considerably...

Imid really wont leave any of them alive. I mean since i used it i havent seen any. Doesnt end the root gnats, but aphids, donezo. I dont think they will build up a resistance. I think theyll all die.

I thought I would post my experience with picking the leaves off that are damaged when dealing with RA. I wouldn't recommend it. In my situation, it just sped up the dieing process. The deficiencies start at the bottom and creep up the plant. Taking the leaves that are damaged off just removes the nutrients that are being slowly sucked out in one motion and the death with just spread to the healthy ones. I found letting them die off and fall on their own slowed the progression.

yerboyblue said:

I thought I would post my experience with picking the leaves off that are damaged when dealing with RA. I wouldn't recommend it. In my situation, it just sped up the dieing process. The deficiencies start at the bottom and creep up the plant. Taking the leaves that are damaged off just removes the nutrients that are being slowly sucked out in one motion and the death with just spread to the healthy ones. I found letting them die off and fall on their own slowed the progression.

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thats what i experience as well YBB...and doing so will make it easier and quicker to see if new damage occurs after my application of strong neem mixture.

Crooked8 imid can build up in a system like mine where soil is recycled which for organic is a no no...and i have read a couple of articles of aphids becoming resistant to imid requiring higher and higher doses to maintain effectiveness

thanks for your input guys...

personally i see no reason why neem couldn't be effective against RA...

Oh i didnt realize you were trying to be all organic my bad. You mentioned imid first! Also didnt know you planned to recycle to soil def cant do that. However ill tell ya this neem is great but it wont end the aphids. Ive tried for years to rid myself of them with pyrethrum and neem and it always just slowed them down but never made them go away. Pyrethrum doesnt kill larvae, neither does neem ime. Good luck bro ra suck!

48 Hours

48 Hours

well it has been 2 days since i dosed with a strong neem mix (12ml/litre) and i am more than happy (so far) with the results. not only is there no new damage on the leaves i have new growth appearing after a week of nothing. the biggest change has been to the root ball, i inspected today to see a heap of bright white new root growth that wasn't there 2 days ago. overall the plants look happy and the colour is returning to it's usual full green...

here is a good article on RA: http://jadekine.com/?p=162

from my observations it takes 4 weeks from planting rooted clones into pots for the RA to affect the plants to a point where damage can be seen on the plants. my strategy in the past was to dose with neem at 5ml/litre but this has proved ineffective. i will now dose with 12ml/litre to hit the RA harder so they are unable to establish the colony large enough to do any real damage...i hope...

Granger2 said:

Good luck, mang. That's a lot of oil on the roots. You'd be better off using Azasol. No oil. Azadiractin is extracted from Neem. Azasol, unlike Azamax and Azatrol, has no oil. Instantly water soluble, and has more systemic effect. No smell [to humans] when dry. No oily mess in your grow space. Most important, no oil on your roots. -granger

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found this that may interest you and confirms my belief that like cannabis, neem is powerful like pot...using it as a complete package yields the better outcomes...

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01922438

Abstract
Two lines ofMyzus persicae of the same origin were treated repeatedlywith pure azadirachtin (aza), or a refined neem seed extract (NSE), at the equivalent concentration of aza. After 40 generations, the aza-selected line had developed 9-fold resistance to aza compared to a non-selected control line, whereas the NSE-selected line did not. These results suggest that a blend of active constitutents in a botanical insecticide such as neem might diffuse the selection process, mitigating the development of resistance compared to that expected with a single active ingredient.

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ozzieAI said:

Today…I have confirmed RA in my current grow …this verifies that RA has spread through all layers of my recycled soil system…bugger…

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Did you confirm RA via scope or by your "issues"?

ozzieAI said:

Now I have successfully used imid to cure my last infestation...now the use of imid is effective but I can't understand what is so bad about it…if someone could explain in plain lay man terms why imid is so bad I would love to hear it…

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Now that you have used imid, I would no longer call your grow 100% organic. Being an organic gardener is not just about using OM(organic material). It takes research, learning and using routines so you can avoid such items as IMID.

ozzieAI said:

So today I confirmed my plants have RA…evidence:
" slowed growth rates
" pale leaves/die off
" dead zones in the root ball…

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Once again, confirmation should only be reached once the insect has been identified.

ozzieAI said:

My first response was to reach for the imid but a thought bubble interrupted the process…'what if neem was enough'…'maybe I haven't been adding enough'???

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First response should have been initiated when building your soil. Adding items like crab mealandneem meal (not to be confused with neem oil) in the mix is a first step in stopping the invaders. Neem oil is better when used as a foilar in regards to IPM.

ozzieAI said:

To assist in catching further damage I removed all leaves (15 - 20%) that showed any sign of damage leaving clean, full green leaves…I used enough neem/seasol (seaweed) mix to saturate the growing medium (1/2 coco coir/organic soil)

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Ouch.. I would have kept those leaves on. What you did was comparable to throwing out food and medicine out of your fridge

ozzieAI said:

I will monitor the plants over this next week or so to see if the neem is enough and will hit with the imid if things continue to get worse…

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And your recycling this soil? No beneficial insects in your garden to compete with RA's? Not trying to bust your balls Ozzie.
I had RA/PM/ S mites and all that shit but when I got my shit together, all that shit ended. Get your microbes, amendments and IPM schedule down and this shit goes away...
Start using crab meals, aloe vera, willow water and silicone. These items help with the pests but must be used prior to getting infections/outbreaks.

Neo 420 said:

Did you confirm RA via scope or by your "issues"?

not on these plants but i have on 3 recent grows and the plants all showed the same symptoms within very similar time frames generally 4 weeks after potting rooted clones. also i catch flyers inside and outside my room...

Now that you have used imid, I would no longer call your grow 100% organic. Being an organic gardener is not just about using OM(organic material). It takes research, learning and using routines so you can avoid such items as IMID.

yes i agree... i was desperate at the time and the reason for this experiment is to see if i can return

Once again, confirmation should only be reached once the insect has been identified.

First response should have been initiated when building your soil. Adding items like crab mealandneem meal (not to be confused with neem oil) in the mix is a first step in stopping the invaders. Neem oil is better when used as a foilar in regards to IPM.

the amendment i use contains neem cake but it isn't enough. i have been building my soil for 7 years now. before RA became an issue i was i growing out some excellent healthy plants. personally i find neem better applied to the soil...i do however also use it for folier spraying

Ouch.. I would have kept those leaves on. What you did was comparable to throwing out food and medicine out of your fridge

yes i stated earlier i would usually as but as this is an experiment i needed to see any further damage easier hence removing anything brown.

And your recycling this soil? No beneficial insects in your garden to compete with RA's? Not trying to bust your balls Ozzie.
I had RA/PM/ S mites and all that shit but when I got my shit together, all that shit ended. Get your microbes, amendments and IPM schedule down and this shit goes away...
Start using crab meals, aloe vera, willow water and silicone. These items help with the pests but must be used prior to getting infections/outbreaks.

as i stated earlier RA don't survive outside in my larger (60 litre) flowering pots so there is something there doing it's job. whatever it is doesn't thrive in my veg room unfortunately. i seriously doubt that 'this shit' will go away anytime soon so i will need to learn to live with it the best i can.
i use silica which as well as being a 6% of my soil amendment is sprayed on and fed during waterings...my plants are generally very strong.

i hope that a strong drenching of neem will stop colonies establishing so that RA will be unable to sustain a population big enough to do any real harm.

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thanks for taking the time to add to this discussion Neo....

Actually Neo you throw up some quite interesting points i first missed...

microbes for one i haven't inoculated my soil with beneficials for quite a while...saying that i have raised previously very healthy soil...

is my soil getting too old and needs to be rotated more frequently..or a better composting environment????

rotating my soil has seen me create a medium that works extremely well in my local and others are trying to replicate for their own grows. what if my system is flawed? hmmmmm

wtf is crab meal...only joking...but seriously once i start this path of...hey this is good shit to add...there can be no end in sight...but something needs to change

(edit) just to reaffirm for 2 years i battled RA thinking it was a nute issue...i have been through the ringer of 'stuff' and wasted $$$ that made no difference to dealing with RA...

but that is not the experiment which is to see if neem can conquer RA...and so far neem is kicking arse...and this is less than 36 hours...

personally i thought that 12ml/litre of neem mix would be too strong, it would cover the roots and soil and make it all greasy but this is not the case.

can anyone else chime in on using neem at this level??

Azamax is OMRI. Using neem as a drench is problematic and should only be used for foliar. You should spend the extra cash and get Azamax (or azatrol).

Here's some sage advice I received from a master gardener a while back:

Apply tanglefoot around stalk just above soil line and apply tanglefoot around the inside of pot just above soil line. Next mix up a container a little larger than pot size with the azamax. Place the entire pot into the container w azamaz(use warm water 80-100F) ensuring that the soil is completely covered and the only escape is up the stalk or inside rim. Of course anything that need O2 will try to escape and get caught in tanglefoot. I would have something to spray and knock down anything trying to escape like pyrethrum. Let the pot soak for at least 5 minutes. Repeat. It will be necessary to have some addition solution ready to top off the dunk container.