Silicic Acid...what kind?

GDK · Nov 5, 2012

Hey IC

I am trying to figure out what kind of silic acid is usable in growing plants. I know theres different kind of Si products available. Stuff like ProTek is widely used, but as i understand it only silicic acid is readily available to the plants. Last round i used a product from the Dutch company Aptus called Regulator(FaSilitor for the US users), which primarily contains silicic acid. Im sure most of you know about this product by now. It lived up to its promises and produced stronger, thicker and faster growth. Now Aptus is kinda pricey, even tho it is extremely concentrated.
Yesterday i was googling silicic acid, when i came across a few products made for human consumption. These products contain 100% colloidal silicic acid. Now Aptus doesnt reveal what kinda silicic acid their products contain, but wouldnt these health supplement bottles be the same? The instructions almost seem the same as Aptus, about being very careful about contaminating the contents of the bottle.

Heres a few links about silicic acid and plants, and some links to silicic acid for humans:

http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/content/100/7/1383.full

http://www.silicol.com/acid_facts.html

http://www.silicea.com/en/index.php

Reason why im starting this thread is, the Silicol available locally is alot cheaper than Aptus, and if its essentially the same it would be awesome. Please discuss..

Stay Safe

jammie · Nov 5, 2012

might find this helpful;https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=246401

whodare · Nov 5, 2012

best/cheapest source for high grade a salicylic acid analogue is the pharmacy...

plain old aspirin...

with a solubility of 3mg/ml (20c), all you need to do is dissolve a 325mg pill in a half liter then decant the water/asa mixture away from the binders that dont dissolve.

then apply that to a res of 100 liters, or at a rate of 5ml/liter.

http://www.jipb.net/pubsoft/content/2/3510/x020578.pdf

Abstract

Kiwifruit (Actinidia deiiciosa (A. Chev.) O. F. Liang et A. R. Ferguson cv. Bruno) was used toinvestigate the effects of acetylsalicylic acid (ASA, 1.0 mmol/L, pH 3.5) and ethylene (100 p.L/L) treat- ments on changes at endogenous salicylic acid (SA) levels and other senescence-related factors duringfruit ripening and softening at 20 “C. The level of endogenous SA in ripening fruits declined and a closerelationship was observed between the change at endogenous SA level and the rate of fruit ripening andsoftening. ASA treatment elevated SA level in the fruit, slowed down the increases in lipoxygenase (LOX)and allene oxide synthase (AOS) activities, decreased the OE production in the preclimacteric phase andthe early phase of ethylene climacteric rise, maintained the stability of cell membrane, inhibited ethylenebiosynthesis, postponed the onset of the ethylene climacteric, and delayed the process of fruit ripeningand softening. On the contrary, application of ethylene to ripening kiwifruit resulted at a lower SA level, anaccelerated increases in the activities of LOX and AOS and the rate of 0; production, an elevated relativeelectric conductivity and an advanced onset of ethylene climacteric, and a quicker fruit ripening andsoftening. It is suggested that the effects of ASA on ripening kiwifruit can be attributed to its ability to http://WWW.chineseplantsciencecom scavenge O; and/or to maintain stability of cell membrane

http://www.springerlink.com/content/k2182003n348814q/

Abstract

The hypothesis that physiologically activeconcentrations of salicylic acid (SA) and itsderivatives can confer stress tolerance in plants wasevaluated using bean (Phaseolus vulgaris L.) andtomato (Lycopersicon esculentum L.). Plantsgrown from seeds imbibed in aqueous solutions (0.1--0.5 mM) of salicylic acid or acetyl salicylic acid(ASA) displayed enhanced tolerance to heat, chillingand drought stresses. Seedlings acquired similarstress tolerance when SA or ASA treatments wereapplied as soil drenches. The fact that seedimbibition with SA or ASA confers stress tolerance inplants is more consistent with a signaling role ofthese molecules, leading to the expression oftolerance rather than a direct effect. Induction ofmultiple stress tolerance in plants by exogenousapplication of SA and its derivatives may have asignificant practical application in agriculture,horticulture and forestry.

whodare · Nov 5, 2012

lol wow im stoned, silicon/silicic acid not salicylic acid.

dohhh

dizzlekush · Nov 5, 2012

This is my answer to some people who previously asked essentially the same thing:

Some companies try to pull a fast one on us. 'monosilicic acid' (a.k.a. orthosilicic acid) is just the form soluble Si takes when hydrated (dissolved in water) at acidic pH. At more alkaline pH (starting around 8.5 ) Si becomes ionized, but at pH <8 Si takes the form of monosilicic acid in solution, which is the form plants uptake Si, and then they convert it to SiO2. Its basically a fancy way of saying 'watered down silica' and allows for the company to list a higher % on the product than if they expressed the % in just Si, so the product appears to be more concentrated but it isn't. As pH increases above 8.5, the Si in solutions changes to ionized polysilicic acids, at 9.3-9.5 disilicic acid stabilizes, at pH below 4 non-ionic polysilicic acids form. But as long as you keep pH 4<8 more than 99% of your Si will be in the form of monosilicic acid.

silicate salts are highly alkaline. when added to solution they raise the solutions pH. As pH raises to greater than 8 (>8), the form that silica takes in water changes from non reactive, non-ionic monosilicic acid, to reactive, ionic polysilicic acids that react with other minerals (unsure of which ones) and precipitate out of solution, giving a cloudy appearance.

Basically at high pH (>8) silica changes forms to a form that can react with other minerals and precipitate out of solution. The best way to prevent this is to add your silicate salt first out of all nutrients, and then lower the pH (add acid) to levels that will insure that pH wont rise to >8 when adding your other nutrients

Sources:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...i4D4Cw&usg=AFQjCNF-X2AS6XxNCDshthzckDly6HokRw
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...08xE7w&sig=AHIEtbToOBuwgUQqzp_H6-nEb9uEqiNC9w

GDK · Nov 5, 2012

Thanks for the input guys..
Dizzle: Im still reading your reply and trying to understand...in short tho..will the health supplement type work as good as cannabis marketed products like Aptus?

Stay Safe

MIway · Nov 6, 2012

Well... The aptus guy said he could drink their product... Don't do it, but it's safe... Well, maybe not the mo... Lol, almost word for word. But it gave me the same thought... Food grade sa. So no mo, which is part of their logic for why their product should be priced so high.

Kcar · Nov 6, 2012

Search "AgSil16H"

Mister_D · Nov 6, 2012

Kcar said:
Search "AgSil16H"

Dirt cheap and works as well as any of the others :biggrin:

NorCalZero · Nov 6, 2012

Aptus is way too overpriced, go with Dutch Master Silica. Use 1-2ml per gallon when you fertilize, you can also use it as a foliar spray which is the approved "organic" use. At around $25 a liter, one bottle should last quite some time....

growshopfrank · Nov 6, 2012

redneck tip of the day
for some reason most nut brands do not list the concentration on the label of their potassium silicate products
if you are in a hydro shop and have 2 or more silica products of equal volume the heaver bottle is higher concentration as the silicate is far denser than water and the difference can be very obvious
funny fact a certain AN product suddenly lost half its weight when they changed the label....

Mia · Nov 6, 2012

Yeah but "it's safe for coco" now.

GDK · Nov 17, 2012

Thanks guys, but i am lookin into silicic acid, not potassium silicate. From what i can gather, the health supplement type will work if the solution is kept between ph 4-8. Now the concentration of monosilisic acid in the product im lookin at, is 3,5g pr 100ml. Aptus recommends running 1ml pr 10L water, but i have no idea of what the concentration of silicic acid is in their Regulator/FaSilitor. Any suggestions on dosage if testing out the health supplement type Si? If the concentration is greater in the Aptus products, it might not be cheaper at all to use the health supplement type.

Stay Safe

dalilguy · Nov 17, 2012

do the aptus products register on a ec/ppm meter? if so id slowly introduce the food grade product till you reach the same ec/ppm that the aptus product gives you..

if it doesnt this post is just useless :laughing:

goodluck GDK let me know what you find :joint:

dizzlekush · Nov 17, 2012

GDK said:
Thanks guys, but i am lookin into silicic acid, not potassium silicate. From what i can gather, the health supplement type will work if the solution is kept between ph 4-8. Now the concentration of monosilisic acid in the product im lookin at, is 3,5g pr 100ml. Aptus recommends running 1ml pr 10L water, but i have no idea of what the concentration of silicic acid is in their Regulator/FaSilitor. Any suggestions on dosage if testing out the health supplement type Si? If the concentration is greater in the Aptus products, it might not be cheaper at all to use the health supplement type.

Stay Safe

GDK maybe i wasnt clear enough with my first explanation. When you dissolve potassium silicate in water, the potassium and the silica are separated from each other and form K+ ions and silicic acids in the solution. what type of silicic acid is dependent upon pH as i explained earlier, but the 'silicate' in potassium silicate turns into silicic acid once dissolved into solution.

The health product will have no benefits over a potassium silicate product like AgSil 16H (what im currently using). If you dont like using powder products buy "Dyna-Gro's PRO-Tekt", its more than twice as concentrated as the health product you're thinking of using. you are correct that you want your pH in between 4 and 8 otherwise the silicic acid stops becoming readily available to the plant.

And btw that 3.5 grams per 100ml is a product with 3.5% (w/v) monosilicic acid, but since monosilicic acid weights more than just Si (since there's lots of hydrogen and oxygen in monosilicic acid), this product is actually weaker (has less Si) than a product that is 3.5% (w/v) Si, which is why i was saying companies try to pull a fast one on us. They talk like its a better form of Si and they express it in a way that makes it look more concentrated, but its really all bullshit.

GDK · Nov 17, 2012

dizzlekush said:
GDK maybe i wasnt clear enough with my first explanation. When you dissolve potassium silicate in water, the potassium and the silica are separated from each other and form K+ ions and silicic acids in the solution. what type of silicic acid is dependent upon pH as i explained earlier, but the 'silicate' in potassium silicate turns into silicic acid once dissolved into solution.

The health product will have no benefits over a potassium silicate product like AgSil 16H (what im currently using). If you dont like using powder products buy "Dyna-Gro's PRO-Tekt", its more than twice as concentrated as the health product you're thinking of using. you are correct that you want your pH in between 4 and 8 otherwise the silicic acid stops becoming readily available to the plant.

And btw that 3.5 grams per 100ml is a product with 3.5% (w/v) monosilicic acid, but since monosilicic acid weights more than just Si (since there's lots of hydrogen and oxygen in monosilicic acid), this product is actually weaker (has less Si) than a product that is 3.5% (w/v) Si, which is why i was saying companies try to pull a fast one on us. They talk like its a better form of Si and they express it in a way that makes it look more concentrated, but its really all bullshit.

Awesome Dizzle..and thanks for the clarification. My chemistry skills are basically non existing lol.
I guess that sums up the thread pretty good. One thing tho. Have you ever tried the Aptus product? If so, have you noticed any improvement? I have never used Si additives in my grows, but when i used Regulator and Startboost from Aptus i was VERY impressed. I believe that the combination of elements in those products are responsible. Most Aptus products is also based on molybdenum besides Si. What im wondering is, if just adding Si will give me the same results. Gonna try and grab a bottle of Grotek Pro-Silica and see how it goes.

Stay Safe

GDK · Dec 2, 2012

Using the Pro-Silica, but im definately not as impressed as i was using Regulator.

Stay Safe

G.O. Joe · Dec 3, 2012

Orthosilicic acid does not exist for long in solutions above 100 mg. SiO2/L, so any concentrated silicic acids are colloidal polysilicic acids. Remember that the bottle of whatever can express its Si content in terms of % orthosilicic acid or something else, but does not actually have to contain any.

Silicic acids themselves are not used in agriculture, though there are surely economic and availability reasons why the slag-derived silicates are. Since the form absorbed is supposed to be the nearly insoluble orthosilicic acid, I'm not sure that there is any disadvantage in the long run to using the seemingly insoluble amorphous silica, wollastonite, or diatomaceous earth, which do gradually release their Si, and don't fuck with pH as much as other forms.

This only contains about every modern study:
Proceedings of The 5th International Conference on Silicon in Agriculture
www.silicon-nutrition.info/Proceedings2011.pdf
Everyone thinks they have found the answer to measuring bioavailable Si in things that contain it in some form, all different answers.

dizzlekush · Dec 3, 2012

G.O. Joe said:
so any concentrated silicic acids are colloidal polysilicic acids.

You got a reference for that? you are correct that orthosilicic acid isnt soluble at concentrations >120mg/L SiO2 but as i understand it ionic polysilicic acids are highly soluble at pH >10.5 and can reach very concentrated levels not as a colloid.

awesome Si link btw. thanks, cant believe i hadn't found that.

edit*
I just checked, you are correct. at pH >8 silica starts forming colloids, which is what allows the higher concentrations at higher pH.

summitoker · Dec 3, 2012

advanced nutes "bud factor x" is supposed to contain what you seek

Silicic Acid...what kind?

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