Help reverse sexing a male for seed?

D.D. · Jul 24, 2012

I'm not having good results with the search feature, so sorry if this topic has been covered.

I am assuming the outcome of reversing a male would be male seed, which is OK.
I cant keep a clone over winter, but want/need to preserve the male.

Can this be as simple as using CS?

I know very little about the scientific aspects of growing/breeding, so please be patient with me... I might ask a lot of stupid sounding questions.

Infinitesimal · Jul 24, 2012

i could be wrong but i don't think blocking ethylene will make a male grow female flowers necessary to grow the seeds.

as far as them producing male seed, they won't all be male like feminized seeds the chromosomes won't match up like that... in feminized there are only XX chromosomes while males have XY chromosomes. so by crossing XX with XX you get only XX feminized seed...

if a male reversal is possible then it would be XY with XY and the seeds will be a mixture of XX female, XY male, and YY I don't know what would happened or if a seed would even form or if it did form a seed, I don't know if that seed would grow a plant

D.D. · Jul 24, 2012

Thanks Infinitesimal,
I follow you on the male having the XY chromosomes.
If the male is successfully reversed and is able to produce seed,
the seed produced (if viable) will be both male and female seed.
This is actually good to know... I thought I was going to have to cross it.

The way I understand... CS is an ethylene blocker.
So is the ethylene sort of like estrogen to the female cannabis plant?

If ethylene is similar to estrogen, then the male plant has something similar to testosterone?

And if this is the case, I need to block/reduce the levels of the chemical similar to testosterone, and boost the levels of ethylene to the parts of the plant that I need to produce seed?

Can I get the stuff to do this without going to a lab?
I can always make the CS, but from what I think I understand, I want to stay away from CS.

Infinitesimal · Jul 24, 2012

D.D. said:
The way I understand... CS is an ethylene blocker.
So is the ethylene sort of like estrogen to the female cannabis plant?

If ethylene is similar to estrogen, then the male plant has something similar to testosterone?

And if this is the case, I need to block/reduce the levels of the chemical similar to testosterone, and boost the levels of ethylene to the parts of the plant that I need to produce seed?

thats the way i understand it the CS blocks the ethylene the hormone responsible for female flower production... so the XX female is left producing male flowers.

but thats do to the lack of ethylene, cannabis is naturally a monoecious plant meaning one sex, and the Hermies that produced sterile female along with viable pollen producing male parts helped to pass on the dioecious/ two sex trait, likely through genetic suppression of ethylene production leading eventually to true male and female plants.

So... I don't know if anything can be given to the male to make it feminine and produce pistils, though there are also hermies with viable female parts and sterile male stamens that don't produce pollen... so what ever hormonal reaction is causing this could hold promising insight into what can cause a male plant to reverse and produce female flowers.

or there may be something that someone else knows of that will increase or supplement the plants ethylene and maybe that would do the trick... like a dude who comes off of steroids and his Testosterone levels drop leaving his estrogen levels at higher ratios than normal and he gets feminine, like growing bitch tits

yet I don't know there is any male hormone to block as its just the lack of ethylene that causes the male flowers. low ethylene like in poorly reversed females can cause dual sex hermies and true females likely have high levels of ethylene. so if it is available maybe ethylene supplementation could be the answer.

funny though... I now think it might be possible, where at first i was thinking... NO way.

peace,
Infi

D.D. · Jul 25, 2012

I have been reading the boards thread by thread now looking for answers.
So far I have only found one other glimmer of hope:

Green Supreme said:
Males can intersex too. Peace GS

Hopefully some of the more advanced growers with can chime in with a "How To"
or at least an idea of How To, written in layman words that this old hillbilly can understand.

You think I could maybe punch a hole in a green tomato that is close to entering the ripening stage and boost the ethylene levels to a male clone?
The idea seems a little "out there" but I don't really care to take a cutting and give it a go.

I know someone on this board is bound to have the knowledge.

This is the last of a local strain AFAIK, and I'd really like to save it if possible.

Adze · Jul 25, 2012

D.D. check this:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=99597&highlight=intersexed

D.D. · Jul 25, 2012

Thanks Adze,

I knew some information was on the boards, just not having any luck with search function.

If I can save this strain it will need to go to seedbay after I grow it out a couple of times.
(i don't want in this situation again)
I had 3 others who helped develop the strain, They have since died & I have found myself incompetent at preserving the strain this year.
First, bugs & Slugs, and then 70 mph wind gusts during a 3 day heavy downpour...
So now, only one male survives, and I feel it is my responsibility to preserve it.
If you ever smoked good Kentucky Weed in the late 1970s - 1980s... you'll understand why I want/need to preserve it so badly.
I don't care if it goes out as freebies... If I can get stable viable seed that isn't all male dominant, then the beans are going out and into better hands than mine.
As of now it is only called "Good Smoke" or "Good Herbs" by the locals.

antheis · Jul 25, 2012

instead of using a green tomato, you could use bananas. they emit ethylene in much larger quantities. but who knows if it would do what you want it to do.

headband 707 · Jul 25, 2012

Yes I assume you would just end up with mutation not that it can't be done . I would stick with collecting the pollen. headband 707

Infinitesimal · Jul 25, 2012

IT's possible... you need Ethephon

:tiphat:

Sam_Skunkman said:
So today I sprayed a male clone with ethephon, 1ml to 1 liter of water.
I will see what happens...

-SamS

Chimera said:
I've been doing this everytime I've released male pollen for the last 5 years, and yes it does work... although you'll have to tweek the spray regimen.

The ethylene effect is transient, so repeated spraying is necessary to sustain pistillate floral development. The pistils on transformed plants are typically shorter than on non-reverted 'true' females.

I've already created a couple of all male seedlines from the process...

Here's an old pic I took years ago... back in '04.

[URL=https://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/11237dudelookslikealady-thumb.JPG]View Image[/url]

Sam, are you using pure ethephon for the dilution, or a product like Pistil or Florel? What is the final ppm of the working spray solution you are using? I believe your working solution might not be concentrated enough to induce reversal.

-Chimera

Sam_Skunkman said:
999 ppm is I think, the same as 1 ml to a liter of water. This is what I used, 1ml. It is pure ethephon from Bayer, but it is a liquid so it is not actually pure. And that will screw up my numbers, but I did a start anyway. Sounds like the real ppm will be maybe half what I thought?

Ethrel (ethephon 480 g as/L) is what the label says.

What % or ppm did you use and any problems with males that were used to make all male lines? Did you use YY males? Do you have any YY males maintained?

Did the females produced have generally good characteristics to judge from, by smoking?
Farout that some one has done it and it works easy, or is it hard?

How often should I spray? At what point in flowering is best? Before, during or what? I will spray once a week.

I sprayed a male clone with two tall upright branches and I only sprayed one of the branches, half the plant, is that ok? Or is it better to spray the whole plant? If it works and the male clone turns female, I will try and pollinate the she/male and see what happens. I have no interest in an all male seed line, but it is fun to see how things can be made to do the most amazing things.

Excuse all the questions,
You can PM me the answers if you prefer.
-SamS

Sam_Skunkman said:
Well my first attempt at transforming a male into female was not successful, I used 1ml to 1 liter of water. I will try again with 2-5ml in 1 liter of water.
My male clone had two main stems, I treated one and left the other untreated. The treated branch did not flower, male or female, the untreated branch did flower male as normal.
Chimera had suggested my ethephon levels were to low, I bet he was right.
I will try again shortly and post the results.

-SamS

Sam_Skunkman said:
1 ml per liter of water, sprayed 3 times, first time first day of flowering, second a week later, third a week later. Try not to spray all the leaves as it will kill them, just spray the areas where sexual traits will show.
Here is the male plant at just over 3 weeks flowering. It first started to make male flowers then they turned mostly female, over 90%.
I will see how good the flowers turn out.
-SamS

Sam_Skunkman said:
I did leave a few of the male branches untreated and I already hit the female branches with the pollen. These are selfed, the male clone was transformed to female a few branches were not and were left male. It might be better to test YY with a male transformed to female and a different variety male rather then selfing as selfing also reduces vigor making germination of any YY even harder. But I have this ready so I tried it.
-SamS

guest4092 · Jul 25, 2012

I have had males start to grow some pistils after some bad treatment, like crazy light hours, or trimming off too many roots.
I has happened more than once.

trichrider · Aug 3, 2012

reversed male.
reversed using CS. no viable pollen produced. not the last attempt tho.
have one right now, trying to collect pollen. fingers crossed.

fungzyme · Aug 3, 2012

Seems like you're using the most complicated and least likely to be successful way to arrive at your solution. Just harvest some pollen and store it in the freezer. There are a couple excellent threads on how to do just that.

The only time I've had a male plant produce pistils due to extreme stress and neglect and the plant wasn't healthy enough to be fertilized with its own pollen and make it long enough to produce mature seed - they would have been male/female anyway, but selfed nonetheless. Never seen anyone try to reverse a male plant with chemicals...

WishDoctor · Aug 3, 2012

Make your own CS
it's way easy takes about 24hrs
make sure you use distilled water, and make your CS @ 35 ppm - 45 ppm
store in the dark. never purchase the stuff off the net, it's a complete waste of your cash.
wrong ppm or old.

You don't need to use expense silver coins, all you need is a short piece of18gauge .925 silver jewelry wire
get it at your local jewelry supply, a few pennies or free as scrap if the jeweler is cool.
An old phone charger, some gator clips and a mason jar with a top and you are ready to go.

I have CS I made that is over 2yrs old stored in the fridge it's still @ 45ppm and works. Temps over 70F and light destroy/degrade CS very fast.

D.D. · Aug 3, 2012

I suppose I can try different methods.. rooted a few cuttings.
Really don't want to cross it, but if reversing doesn't work i'm out of options.

D.D. · Aug 24, 2012

The CS seems to be doing the trick.
He's starting to produce female hairs. Not too sure he will produce seed tho.
Will update if seeds are produced.

foomar · Aug 24, 2012

Stressed a male to hell and grew out the selfed seed here.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=143533&highlight=selfed+male

Growing out a lot of old seed packs and often only get a couple of males , might be able to salvedge something this way , the one in the thread was poor when selfed but a good crosser.

circadian clock · Aug 24, 2012

u can defiantly reverse a male. had the same thing happen last year 2 me. the hurricane that came through killed all my shit, except for a lone male. it would only grow buds on the very tips of the branches. dont know how i did it but it mite have been because it was way past prime. and the seeds will defiantly grow. after i harvested the tops i let it dry, then seperated the seeds from the bud. it took me all day just to smoke 3 bowls, and i smoke heavy. i was callin people to help me smoke it, unfortantly everybody was workin. now that i think about it, the day i was smokin was when we had the earthquake on the east coast. strong shit, good luck

D.D. · Sep 9, 2012

Not exactly getting any bud , but a few true seed pods are growing.
Pollen out the yazoo so seed should be fertile viable.

The plant is still very male dominant , seed few and far apart , but look like they are going to be large when mature.

Not sure if the CS worked or if this a safety mechanism to prevent extinction?

I had to open one to see if it was a false pod

Not false pods . They contain seed .

D.D. · Sep 9, 2012

Now the wait on seeds to mature and pick them.
Will know if they are viable next spring.

Will update again if seeds are viable.

Thanks for all the help and encouragement everyone. :tiphat:

Help reverse sexing a male for seed?

Member

my strength is a number, and my soul lies in every

Member

my strength is a number, and my soul lies in every

Member

Member

Member

Active member

Plant whisperer

my strength is a number, and my soul lies in every

guest4092

Kiss My Ring

Active member

Active member

Member

Member

Luddite

Active member

Member

Member