Leaves have started to hang...

Kroggi · Aug 24, 2011

Hey there... Got a minor issue with the White Russians im growing currently...

PH: 5,8
EC: 1,3
Temp: 24 - 28 C with lights on
currently running a 600w MH for the veg period, and they are 9 days in vegetative state...
Nutrients: Advanced hydroponics with Cannazym and Rhizotonic

Attached a couple of pics to show what i mean.

Any ideas ?

wilbur · Aug 24, 2011

assuming they're not burnt from the lights this has to be a nutrient problem or overwatering. mate, this is severe. tell us more!

Mrgrowem · Aug 25, 2011

The pictures provided by Kroggi, appear to be plants in a hydro setup. Kroggi's description does mention a hydro setup. It's not possible to over water them ! But I digress, I know nothing about hydroponics.

It's possible they've run short of water though ! Or perhaps a root system problem of some type. Could even be the water itself, maybe ? I'm just guessing, in an attempt to maybe hit something that Kroggi didn't think of yet. Someone here will know, I feel pretty sure of that....

Crush · Aug 25, 2011

Looks like under watering.

CannabisFox · Aug 25, 2011

You should add that this is like a DWC Kroggi !

Think about it: What did you change since your last grow in that system?

Check that underwatered plant

Looks similar to yours!

I would recommend: Check temp of water.

Mh.. If you upgraded your light till the last grow it may be possible, that the plants cant get enough water out of this system but enough for a 400w (like last grow wasnt it?)
You didnt build in the damms heath robinson had in his system? Any kind of medium in the tubes?
I really think it could be that the roots cant get all the water they need cause its too few in the tubes

next idea: whats the rh in your room?

Kroggi · Aug 25, 2011

Well... One of my grow buddies actually mentioned one thing that came to mind... The plants only have this problem on the upper row, the larger plants at least, and asked if i considered it could be the plant getting light from the bottom and not the top... ?

He experiences the same problem when his plants grow above the bulb, kind of like it is now, one bulb center placed with plants below, mid and above...

Could this be ?

@wilbur & Mrgrowem - The watering cant be the issue, the pump have been running the same amount as last time, and ive even tried to adjust it up and down. The tubes (4 rows) holds about 50 liters of water when the pump is running, with a 3/4" hose... I have leveled the tubes out so theres allways a little water in the tubes as it doesnt lead down, unless theres a flow of water... Pump runs 24/7

@Crush - same thing here m8, cant be under watering, plants gets enough water, as the system runs 24/7. Tubes measure 110mm and the 3/4" hose had a preassure equal to ½ meter up in the air with the previous pressure that was on. That gives all the plants about 1 - 2 cm of roots free from the pot and down to the water surface, and roots are 60+ cm...
@CannabisFox - yeah its kind of like a DWC m8, which is what i ran before the tubes.
What i changed:
-Tank size from 65 - 170 liters.
-Insulation material on the tubes to get lower temps of the water, with reflektive foil on.
-Leveled the tubes out so water evens out and goes down, instead of doing downhill, its on a constant flow.
-2" netpots with foam to hold the plant, instead of just foam that holds the plant.
-Switched from a 400w CMH in start vegetative period, to a 600w MH.
-Switched the cooltubes out with bare bulbs hanging on steelwire.
-Added reflective foil on the walls instead of just white flat paint.

I think thats about it m8.

Water temps are pretty low, around the 22 C
RH: i dont meassure RH

vangaurd · Aug 25, 2011

Kroggi, Do you have a airstone in your res? I know Heath didnt run one in his sit up but if you look at his he has the corners angled down which gives him the waterfall effect. Our systems are more flat and only get the said effect when the water is going from one level to the next so our water is moving slower than his. Try adding a air pump if you dont already have one it couldnt hurt....

Crush · Aug 25, 2011

Kroggi said:
Well... One of my grow buddies actually mentioned one thing that came to mind... The plants only have this problem on the upper row, the larger plants at least, and asked if i considered it could be the plant getting light from the bottom and not the top... ?

In that case yes that's what it is.

You plants actually don't have signs of under-watering or over-watering actually. It actually stumped me. I just guessed.

Airnut · Aug 25, 2011

When "claws appear its 9 of 10 times nitrogen-toxic water being used
Some call it lockout!
You prob. feed 2 much N.
Try thin the mix or change it! IMO

Awesome setup m8, can almost fell the heat(h)! lol

RubeGoldberg · Aug 25, 2011

Kroggi said:
Hey there... Got a minor issue with the White Russians im growing currently...

PH: 5,8
EC: 1,3
Temp: 24 - 28 C with lights on
currently running a 600w MH for the veg period, and they are 9 days in vegetative state...
Nutrients: Advanced hydroponics with Cannazym and Rhizotonic

Attached a couple of pics to show what i mean.

Any ideas ?

What are your reservoir temperatures? Can you show us a pic of your roots?

Also when you say Advanced Hydroponics, do you mean the European Company that copies the GH 3part with their "dutch formula" or do you mean Advanced Nutrients?

Kroggi · Aug 25, 2011

Hi all... Loving the response, that i gotta say... So lets see about the replies.

@vanguard - yes i have 2 airstones in my res, and the "exit" from the tubes is at a higher lvl so it generates a natural splashing, which also keeps the res mixed at all times. The flow of the tubes isent whats bothering me, as the flow can be VERY high if i choose to turn the pump up.

@crush - yeah it kind of stick with me, but im not for sure about it. Its just a guess from my side really, or the growbuddy to be more exact :/

@Aitnut - Thining it out and letting it suck some more fresh water. Feeding it too much N u say, and yet its only at 1.3 EC currently with the exact same mix as ive always used :/

@RubeGoldberg - Checked it today, 25 degrees celcius, or 25.3 to be precice. Picture of the roots, i could... Getting cam, brb, here we are

Check attachment.
By saying advanced hydroponics, i do mean advanced hydroponics

9992207300-Fertelizantes+advance+hydroponics+of+Holland.jpg

stoney-trees · Aug 25, 2011

Crush said:
I just guessed.

WHICH IS WHY YOU NEED TO QUIT GIVING OUT FUCKING GROW INFO

Crush · Aug 25, 2011

Everyone here has been guessing. That's what people do on this forum.

RubeGoldberg · Aug 25, 2011

Okay so no more guessing guys.

He said rez temps are 25 degrees. REDFLAG!

Kroggi: Your roots look okay visually in the Pic, however your rez temps are waaaaay in to Pithium territory, Ideally you would be keeping them below 20 degrees C (19-20 being an ideal but small range)

Your leaves are hanging down. Are they limp like a sock in the wind or still fairly Rigid?

When you monitor the PH in your rez over a period of 1-2 days.. is the PH rising or falling??

Also can you take some pics of the bottom leaves that are speckled?

~Shhh~ · Aug 25, 2011

Hi Kroggi,

I was gonna ask about your water temps... 25c is def too high, but I'm not sure it would cause those symptoms... How high is the water level in the top pipe? Also as you point out the to pipe seems to house the only plants suffering from this. It maybe a DO (dissolved oxygen) issue due to water temps but then why aren't the lower ones also effected.

Hope you get to the bottom of it mate

Crush · Aug 26, 2011

Yeah but he says it's only a few plants..

This other guy that did a stadium grow said that the leaves curl down to the lights in that grow environment.

The plants look healthy overall that's why I figured they were just bending to the lights...

MummyCat · Aug 26, 2011

I think its just hardmode

RubeGoldberg · Aug 26, 2011

Crush said:
Yeah but he says it's only a few plants..

This other guy that did a stadium grow said that the leaves curl down to the lights in that grow environment.

The plants look healthy overall that's why I figured they were just bending to the lights...

True,

Based on the limp stressed appearance though, for some reason those plants still rub me the wrong way.

I work as a sort of "troubleshooter" for several medical cooperatives, Summertime is rampant with rez temp issues the grower never had to deal with throughout the year. Outside of summertime and poorly designed rooms I mostly encounter PH lockout fuckups.

Root pathogens will almost always show their ugly head around the 2nd-3rd week of bloom when the plant starts to focus more on flower production.

When pathogens are so severe that they appear in veg, typically plants metabolizing food faster will show symptoms first.

So for the OP: (original poster)

Aside from the location of the lights being a factor on those top rows. Is it possible they could be getting a higher water pressure during feedings?

Could you list any possible factors that make those plants different?
Hot air rises, does your cooling situation favor the lower plants? etc etc

Kroggi · Sep 3, 2011

Water temps might be a bit too high, ill get that fixed asap. Gonna "isolate" the tank with reflective material, as ive used on the tubes too.

Roots today, still looks good, white and healthy. After i put in an extra 600w bulb and switched to 12/12 it kind of went into its self again, so my guess currently is that it might be caused by the light. Again, just second guessing this...

The water pressure should be the same all around, as it only goes one way, Start -> End and the tubes cant be holding more water in one place to slow it down for the next row. The flow is constant.

Temps in the room are currently 27C at the highest, which is good. Hot air ofcourse rises to the filter and gets pulled out. Ventilation gets blown from bottom and up, so lower plants gets the first hard air pushing, where the top ones are more spread. Theres 2 rotating table fans blowing from 2 corners, upwards, and one fan modded to blow straight up just below the 2 bulbs.

CannabisFox · Sep 3, 2011

for lower water temp u could install a little vent(blowing at water surface) connected to a temp measurement in the water

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