Info about DON vs. ions: plants don't only use ions

I am writing this because many people think plants only use ions as 'food', and that is not a correct assumption.

Most plants will not die right away from lack of ions. However, I can not think of a situation where plants will not have access to ions in nature from either the rhizosphere, phyllosphere, soil solution or via. microbial loop or organic matter mineralization (i.e. solubilization) .

Plants use a few forms of N, P, etc, most notable is the use of DON (Dissolved Organic Nitrogen) such as 15N, glycine, etc; and plants use of DOP (Dissolved Organic Phosphorous). Plants do use ions more readily and for the lions share of 'food', however, it is inaccurate to claim: "Without those inorganic minerals plants could not live."

Plants do fare better when they have access to ions either from chem ferts, microbial loop and/or organic matter mineralization (thanks to exudates from roots and microbes that solublize ions from organic matter into the soil solution and the rhizosphere); however, plants use a decent amount of DON as an N source when DON is available.

In essence the claim above is correct, in that plants do best with a source of ions, however, to claim plants need ions to live is not accurate. I have many references I could cite to peer-reviewed academic papers published in respected journals if ppl would like to read more on this topic.

spurr

EDIT: I made a typo, "DOM" should be "DON".

one thread of the same intellectual pecker waggery is generally considered enough.

two is kinda overkill.

go for three, and i'll assume you're a bot and wait for it to turn into an advertisement for penis pills.

most ppl won't see the other thread in head forum, this forum gets more views. Good enough explanation for you? How about you learn and not complain?

i can almost smell the smug from here - kudos. that kinda arrogance takes effort.

I already addressed this nitpickery in my forum.


Never has a plant ever lived it's full life cycle without ions, that you can demonstrate. You're trying to nitpick, but you are off base. The most change that might be required from my original post might be this:


It is worth noting:
N is not organic
P is not organic
K is not organic
Mg is not organic
Ca is not organic.
Without those inorganic minerals plants could not live in any manner resembling properly, and there is absolutely no credible evidence that they could live at all.
Plants can absolutely thrive without any organic compounds at all.
-GRAT3FULH3AD


and that's only to make sure semantic police don't whine.

Nitrogen Transformations
Nitrogen exists in a number of chemical forms and undergoes chemical and biological reactions. The following transformation processes are numbered to coincide with Figure 1.

1. Organic nitrogen to ammonium nitrogen (mineralization). Organic nitrogen comprises over 95 percent of the nitrogen found in soil. This form of nitrogen cannot be used by plants but is gradually transformed by soil microorganisms to ammonium (NH4+). Ammonium is not leached to a great extent. Since NH4+ is a positively charged ion (cation), it is attracted to and held by the negatively charged soil clay. Ammonium is available to plants.

2. Ammonium nitrogen to nitrate nitrogen (nitrification). In warm, well-drained soil, ammonium transforms rapidly to nitrate (NO3-). Nitrate is the principle form of nitrogen used by plants. It leaches easily, since it is a negatively charged ion (anion) and is not attracted to soil clay. The nitrate form of nitrogen is a major concern in pollution.

3. Nitrate or ammonium nitrogen to organic nitrogen (immobilization). Soil microorganisms use nitrate and ammonium nitrogen when decomposing plant residues. These forms are temporarily "tied-up" (incorporated into microbial tissue) in this process. This can be a major concern if crop residues are high in carbon relative to nitrogen. Examples are wheat straw, corn stalks and sawdust. The addition of 20 to 70 pounds of nitrogen per ton of these residues is needed to prevent this transformation. After the residues are decomposed, the microbial population begins to die back and processes 1 and 2 take place.

4. Nitrate nitrogen to gaseous nitrogen (denitrification). When soil does not have sufficient air, microorganisms use the oxygen from NO3- in place of that in the air and rapidly convert NO3- to nitrogen oxide and nitrogen gases (N2). These gases escape to the atmosphere and are not available to plants. This transformation can occur within two or three days in poorly aerated soil and can result in large loses of nitrate-type fertilizers.

5. Ammonium nitrogen to ammonia gas (ammonia volatilization). Soils that have a high pH (pH greater than 7.5) can lose large amounts of NH4+ by conversion to NH3 gas. To minimize these losses, incorporate solid ammonium-type fertilizers, urea and anhydrous ammonia below the surface of a moist soil.

Click to expand...

So The vast majority of N which all plants have access to... Even if it is from organic compounds... is absorbed by the plant as ions.

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/crops/00550.html

I posted these in this discussion in my forum, but perhaps the op is right in that more people will see it here...

Spur,
Perhaps it would be helpful toward supporting your assertions, if you posted the exact mechanisms by which cannabis plants absorb and metabolize dissolved organic nitrogen (or any element bound in an organic compound).

spurr said:

I am writing this because many people think plants only use ions as 'food', and that is not a correct assumption.

I have seen the following quote in the signature of 'toohighmf' and it has always bothered me a little because it's not accurate. .

spurr

Click to expand...

This is one of the things Head lives for man.... this and crankin out killer genetics!!!

I just need Spurr to show me one plant that has ever been grown successfully without ever absorbing inorganic minerals.

OR

Show the exact mechanism by which plants absorb and metabolize nutrients bound up in organic molecules.

OR

Stop trying to correct established science with unsupported speculation.

@ Bid D:

I know he is all about chem ferts, and that is why he should know what is what, is why I tried to explain to him how he is wrong. if you want to see how he misunderstands basic tenets of breeding and nomenclature and taxonomy read the long thread in his forum, no need to re-hash his misunderstandings here.


@ Gretefulhead:

Because you just copied posts from the thread in your forum, I will do that same in regards to showing how your posts are not on topic and are wrong. Damn dude, why can't you accept your wrong? Your ego is insane.

I grew organically for a long time before I upgraded.

Outdoors where they belong, I'd still use organics.
regardless, organically grown plants still uptake inorganic minerals.

@ gretefulhead:

at least you are no longer trying to claim inorganic minerals element used as plant ferts are not ions!

And chems from fert bottles is not an upgrade, it's just another way of doing it, not better, not worse. And if you used 'organics in a bottle' you didn't grow truly organically, in terms of microbes, that requires microbial inputs like compost teas, vermicompost, etc., it's more about farming microbes than adding bottled ferts.

spurr said:

Damn dude, why can't you accept your wrong? Your ego is insane.

Click to expand...

I can absolutely admit I'm wrong when it is demonstrated that I am.
You have failed to do so, though.

I did not C&P any post. I did repost some filed I've uploaded.


Your ego seems to be insane.l

spurr said:

@ gretefulhead:

at least you are no longer trying to claim inorganic minerals element used as plant ferts are not ions!

Click to expand...

I never made any such claim.

spurr said:

And chems from fert bottles is not an upgrade, it's just another way of doing it, not better, not worse. And if you used 'organics in a bottle' you didn't grow truly organically, in terms of microbes, that requires microbial inputs like compost teas, vermicompost, etc., it's more about farming microbes than adding bottled ferts.

Click to expand...

When your quality and yield improve it is an upgrade.


organics is a religion, trying to grasp at any science that remotely supports the dogma, and ignoring the facts which refute the dogma.

This thread is nothing but the same old "organics vs. mineral nutes" redone.

been there had this debate many many times.

instead of talking in rhetorical circles, why not just provide an example of any plant that has lived its full life cycle without inorganic minerals... or, provide explanation of the mechanism by which plants absorb and metabolize elements that are bound up in organic compounds?

that's all it's take to get me to convert my assertion.


I can provide countless examples of plants properly grown without any organics.

Grat3fulh3ad said:

I already addressed this nitpickery in my forum.


Never has a plant ever lived it's full life cycle without ions, that you can demonstrate. You're trying to nitpick, but you are off base. The most change that might be required from my original post might be this:


It is worth noting:
N is not organic
P is not organic
K is not organic
Mg is not organic
Ca is not organic.
Without those inorganic minerals plants could not live in any manner resembling properly, and there is absolutely no credible evidence that they could live at all.
Plants can absolutely thrive without any organic compounds at all.
-GRAT3FULH3AD

Click to expand...

There is much credible evidence they can live without ions, see my references below, which I ALREADY gave you but you ignored. Also, there is no credible evidence that plants need ions to live, not thrive, just simply live, without ions I never once claimed platns do better with only dissolved organic sources for food. I never claimed you can harvest nice plants without ions (from chem ferts or from microbes); I only claimed there is strong evidence, due to the fact plants use DON, DOC, DOP, etc. *directly*, that plants can live without ions.

See what I wrote in my OP: "However, I can not think of a situation where plants will not have access to ions in nature from either the rhizosphere, phyllosphere, soil solution or via. microbial loop or organic matter mineralization (i.e. solubilization) ."

It's a catch 22, there is no way to remove ions as 'food' for plants due to the ubiquity of microbes. Thus we can't prove one way or another, but there is much proven data showing plants do use dissolved organic substances as food, they DIRECTLY absorb dissolved organic substances into roots. You know this as I already proved it to you, you should stop trying to take the low road.

Thus, my point is sound which means my premise is correct. You point is merely valid, which means the premise could be correct, but could be incorrect.

So The vast majority of N which all plants have access to... Even if it is from organic compounds... is absorbed by the plant as ions.

Nitrogen Transformations
Nitrogen exists in a number of chemical forms and undergoes chemical and biological reactions. The following transformation processes are numbered to coincide with Figure 1.

1. Organic nitrogen to ammonium nitrogen (mineralization). Organic nitrogen comprises over 95 percent of the nitrogen found in soil. This form of nitrogen cannot be used by plants but is gradually transformed by soil microorganisms to ammonium (NH4+). Ammonium is not leached to a great extent. Since NH4+ is a positively charged ion (cation), it is attracted to and held by the negatively charged soil clay. Ammonium is available to plants.

2. Ammonium nitrogen to nitrate nitrogen (nitrification). In warm, well-drained soil, ammonium transforms rapidly to nitrate (NO3-). Nitrate is the principle form of nitrogen used by plants. It leaches easily, since it is a negatively charged ion (anion) and is not attracted to soil clay. The nitrate form of nitrogen is a major concern in pollution.

3. Nitrate or ammonium nitrogen to organic nitrogen (immobilization). Soil microorganisms use nitrate and ammonium nitrogen when decomposing plant residues. These forms are temporarily "tied-up" (incorporated into microbial tissue) in this process. This can be a major concern if crop residues are high in carbon relative to nitrogen. Examples are wheat straw, corn stalks and sawdust. The addition of 20 to 70 pounds of nitrogen per ton of these residues is needed to prevent this transformation. After the residues are decomposed, the microbial population begins to die back and processes 1 and 2 take place.

4. Nitrate nitrogen to gaseous nitrogen (denitrification). When soil does not have sufficient air, microorganisms use the oxygen from NO3- in place of that in the air and rapidly convert NO3- to nitrogen oxide and nitrogen gases (N2). These gases escape to the atmosphere and are not available to plants. This transformation can occur within two or three days in poorly aerated soil and can result in large loses of nitrate-type fertilizers.

5. Ammonium nitrogen to ammonia gas (ammonia volatilization). Soils that have a high pH (pH greater than 7.5) can lose large amounts of NH4+ by conversion to NH3 gas. To minimize these losses, incorporate solid ammonium-type fertilizers, urea and anhydrous ammonia below the surface of a moist soil.

Click to expand...

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/crops/00550.html

Click to expand...

Like I wrote to you already, sadly, even in academia there is lack of understating. It's a fact that plants can use DON, DOC, DOP, etc., directly without microbes breaking it down, please, stop spreading misinformation just to try to protect your ego. Like I wrote to you before, being wrong is OK.


Here are some of my references in terms of DON, DOC and DOP, please notice the publication date on the papers, they are all recent:

Here is a zip file I made of all the following full text papers, password is "references" without quotes: http://filesurf.ru/208396

1. "Dissolved Organic Nitrogen and Mechanisms of Its Uptake by Plants in Agricultural Systems"
David L. Jones, John F. Farrar, Andrew J. Macdonald, Sarah J. Kemmitt, and Daniel V. Murphy

2. "Tansley review: Uptake of organic nitrogen by plants"
Tor gny Nä sholm, Knut Kielland and Ulrika Ganeteg
New Phytologist (2009) 182: 31–48

3. "Dissolved organic nitrogen uptake by plants—an important N uptake pathway?"
David L. Jones, John R. Healeya, Victoria B. Willett, John F. Farrar, Angela Hodge
Soil Biology & Biochemistry 37 (2005) 413–423

4. "Amino acids as a nitrogen source for tomato seedlings: The use of dual-labeled (13C, 15N) glycine to test for direct uptake by tomato seedlings"
Tida Gea, Shiwei Song, P.Roberts, D.L. Jones, Danfeng Huang, K. Iwasaki
Environmental and Experimental Botany 66 (2009) 357–361

5. "Plant Uptake and Utilization of Organic Nitrogen"
Torgny Nasholm
Dept of Forest Ecology and Magagment/Dept of Forest Genetica dn Plant Physuilogy, SLU

6. "Competition for nitrogen between plants and soil microorganisms"
Jason P. Kaye and Stephen C. Hart
TREE vol. 12, no. 4 April 1997

7. "Review: Breaks in the cycle: dissolved organic nitrogen in terrestrial ecosystems"
Jason C Neff, F Stuart Chapin III, and Peter M Vitousek
Ecol Environ 2003; 1(4): 205–211

8. "Pathways of nitrogen utilization by soil microorganisms - A review" (in press)
Geisseler Daniel, William R. Horwath, Rainer Georg Joergensen, Bernard Ludwig
oil Biology & Biochemistry xxx (2, September, 2010) 1-10

9. "Very low uptake of organic N from dual-labelled (13C and 15N) green manure by wheat" (not peer reviewed)
Thomas Larsen, Jakob Magid, Paul Henning Krogh, Antonie Gorisse
September 17, 2005

Grat3fulh3ad said:

I posted these in this discussion in my forum, but perhaps the op is right in that more people will see it here...

Click to expand...

That paper is not relevant to this thread, it has nothing to due with plant usage of dissolved organic substances. You keep posting the same crap over and over again, and it's not any more relevant than it was last time you posted it.

My large list of references proves my points. That paper you cited is wrong, and I will email the author to correct him/her and I will post the response here.

there is much credible evidence that some plants can use some organic N for some processes. There is no evidence that crops could be harvested from plants that never had any inorganic minerals.